Hey You... Yeah, you! The one complaining about the Healthcare Reform Bill...

Originally posted by m khan
We didn't have the option of voting third party. We only had two parties on the ballot.

There was a line to write in a candidate. We only have a 2 party system if WE continue to vote one or the other. Maybe next election someone should start an "anyone but D/R" campaign. I'm sick of people telling me I threw away my vote because it wasn't for Obama or McCain. I think it's obvious who really threw their votes away.

reply to post by Chillidog1


I really like the idea "anybody but D/R/or the tainted teaparty"

(sorry teapartyers I think maybe you have a few D/R's sneakin in)

Originally posted by Thirty_Foot_Smurf

Originally posted by Dock9
reply to post by Thirty_Foot_Smurf

 

Wow ... you're right. This is going out of control

Those of us not resident of the US are treading on egg-shells over this issue, because the rage is palpable

But no matter how hard you try to stay beyond the rage

seems the rage will find you, if you dare to enter threads about health on ATS at the moment


Maybe those of us from outside the US should avoid this forum for the duration (which probably isn't what the owners of ATS would like to happen, but hell ... how much abuse for the sake of it are non-americans supposed to absorb)

I mean, I even put at the bottom of my post that I didn't want to get into the political fray about it ... was just seeking a few answers

Good to see you're keeping a sense of humour about it anyway

Well i think people outside the US with a good perspective on government run healthcare need to help out by letting people know exactly what were in for if we go that route. Its just crazy to me that despite all the evidence overseas that show socialized healthcare is a nightmare people still want it here at any cost.

[edit on 22-3-2010 by Thirty_Foot_Smurf]

I'm European and I'm quite confused by this statement of yours

Its just crazy to me that despite all the evidence overseas that show socialized healthcare is a nightmare

What evidences?

Look! I have traveled all around this world - and have actually lived in many foreign countries since I was a child, and during my whole life I have been treated many times at both private and public hospitals and clinics in Europe, South America and in Asia.

So I guess I have some experience from both sides and from many different countries.

In Europe we have healthcare that we pay for by our high taxes but I have also the possibility to add a private solution and pay from my own pocket + private insurance that will cover the costs for an operation, if I don't want to wait with something that I think is urgent for me to get treated right away.

And I can have both, my public option which cost me little beside the tax - and I can also have an additional private insurance which I or my employer pay for, if I (god forbid) need a new hip or get something else that is not a threat to my life, but want those conditions to be treated right away, immediately!

If I don't want to pay from my own pocket and get treated the same day and feel that I don't have an emergency, I can go to the public clinic/hospital whenever I want and get an appointment to see a doctor without going broke and pay for it the rest of my life.

Depending on what illness or emergency I have, will determine my waiting time to get an surgery done by operation.

If my illness is not severe or I have an emergency, the usual waiting time depends on how many other people are there the the same moment as I.

Fom my experience and visits during my whole life in public clinics and hospitals in different countries of Europe, I had to wait between 10 minutes to 6 hours the most to get treated.

(If I walk into the clinic/hospital on my own legs and don't have any emergency)

I usually just have to wait between 15 minutes to 1 hour until they call my name. All depends on my condition and how many others are there at the same moment - if the clinics/hospitals are overloaded with people they phone for off duty doctors and nurses who are on emergency duty to come in to work extra.

Everything gets then treated right away by doctors and cute nurses and/or if it's very serious they rush me on a stretcher to the operating table to go under the knife.

If it's serious, but not immediately life threatening, they would put me in a hospital room 1-2 days and then I can have my operation done.

If it's only semi serious and not immediately life threatening they can sometimes (but not always!) put me on a waiting list a couple of months to get the surgery done or to see certain specialists and undergo certain procedures.

And here comes THE ONLY PROBLEM THAT I CAN SEE WITH MY PUBLIC HEALTH CARE OPTION!

Depending on which specialist there could be a maximum 1 month waiting list, or which surgery I need, there can be long waiting times, again! all is depending on what condition I have and how many people that need the same operation/surgery where you live. (Sometimes they even can send you to another hospital instead so you don't have to wait at all though!).

And this waiting time for surgery and an operation can be between a couple of days to the maximum 6 months for some extreme cases, a new hip is unfortunately one such example, but they are nowtrying to change that waiting time.

But that is also different from country to country and dfferent locations.

And this is the only problem I can see with our health care here in Europe!

So if I don't like to wait the time it would take to get my public option surgery and I don't want to be on a waiting list because my condition it's not life threatening according to the doctors, and the time they gave me for surgery would interfere with my vacation plans visiting at the The Côte d'Azur/French Riviera with my buddies - Oh dear! what should I do?

Well as an EU citizen maybe I can check out if I can get my surgery done in Southern France instead, maybe they have a shorter waiting list for just this condition? - and then could get fully reimbursed for this operation/surgery by my home country which I think is possible in many countries of EU nowadays.

Or I use my private insurance and pay some extra from my own pocket and get my surgery done right away at some private hospital!

Whatever I chose to do, I know that I will get my surgery done in one way or another.

If I chose to be a cheapskate and save money I can take my public option which is already payed for with taxes, but maybe I have to wait a while to get my surgery.

Or I chose to pay for an additional private insurance to get my surgery done immediately at a private hospital BUT! this will cost me more out of my own pocket!

So whatever I chose to do - I have the choice to chose how important it is for me to get treated immediately!

At least I have the peace of mind to know that I will get treated in any case - money or no money in my pocket! because I will always know that I have my public option there for me when I need it. And the same goes for all citizens of EU - rich or poor! peace of mind for all!

So I can have both my public option + private insurance = to be fully covered for any event that would happen in my life!

And when you guys maybe in a few weeks can post the total costs per capita for you to receive the same, I would be very thankful to know how much this is going to cost each of you in total? - it would be very interesting to see! maybe we here in Europe will end up paying less for total health coverage?

2 years ago I broke my foot in Spain when I fell of a ladder while painting my dad's house and they picked me up in an ambulance and rushed me to a brand new very modern public hospital where I got treated very professionally by cute & funny nurses and very efficient doctors - in fact! I have almost never been treated so fast and with such care anywhere before. It was very professional IMO!

And it was absolutely almost the same class as most of those private hospitals I been to in the world during my liftime. Top notch!

I Certainly don't have much to compare to concerning the US - the only time I have visited a private hospital in the US was when I got one hockey puck right in my face which got me a broken nose & a concussion from my second cousin's über hard slapshot in a "friendly" game of Icehockey, when I was visiting them in my younger years.

But I have to say that they were really good at the hospital they made my nose looking even better than before actually! and thank God that it was all paid for by my parents insurance.

Of course there are 'some' problems regarding our system, but I am thankful in general that every one in Europe can have access to good healthcare if they need it, without going broke - even the less fortunate ones with bad economy.

But seriously! please tell me, because I'm interested to know! what is so terrible about our healthcare here in Europe? - beside paying our 'nightmare' taxes!... ... what are these health care nightmares overseas that you speak of?

[edit on 22-3-2010 by Chevalerous]

Originally posted by Schaden

Originally posted by Wookiep
What about Obamas MASSIVE spending??

Those deficits are driven by the recession. Federal tax revenues crashed since 2008. He's not spending much more than Bush. Most of the federal budget is non-discretionary.

Wow, lie much? Obama has all ready spent more than all the previous presidents combined.

reply to post by K J Gunderson


You know, now that I think about it, over the last year I spent aproximately 3000 on various healthcare expenses. I am insured, by BCBS, all the expenses for me were due to similar reasons as yours, basically medications that my doctor prescribed by the insurance does not believe I should take. Whoever thinks the current system is good must not be paying for any insurance and be completely healthy (....at the moment...)... oh wait....

-rrr

Wow, what an absurdly oversimplified childish rant by the OP.

He's acting just like how a pissed off kid does.

He's mad so he's going to stomp his feet and pout, call people names, point fingers at others instead of taking responsiblity for his own actions or lack thereof, use sweeping generalizations and faulty logic to try and prove his point.

Yah, that about sums up his post.

Originally posted by projectvxn
reply to post by Stormdancer777

 

I would but I don't wanna wade through post after post trying to explain to me why it's a good thing, and how this "reform" will bring about the salvation of our health and the economy, even though anyone doing math and listening to our creditors have something else to say.

Honestly, I'm done trying to convince people that they should stand with their rights. People don't seem to want rights anymore, just handouts.

OH dear, you are correct, it is after all the "ME" generation,

JaxonRoberts,

Although I wholeheartedly agree with your sentiments, I wouldn't let your emotions overpower your argument.

While it does at times seem that the backlash and accountability Bush and his Wild Bunch avoided has somehow transferred to Obama instead, even though that administration left us with a heavy deficit and locked us into situations that were bound to implode the burdened working class (not to mention his Prescription Drug Benefit, the largest increase to government health care since Medicare), lashing out at them won't make them consider your valid points at all.

Quite the opposite, really.
Those points will be avoided in favor of discussing your irate behavior.

Just a thought.

Starred and flagged.

- Lee (Dr. Death Panel) Anoma

I agree. i was totally discussed last night during the debate. The Ratpublicans kept saying the budget deficits. We are spending our children's future. Every time they would get up it was something that Bush had done and they didn't say a word. Now they want to talk about the deficits, now they want to talk about executive orders, now they want to talk about spending too much money. These are the same a%$holes that put 2 wars on the credit card. These are the same a&%holes that didn't question are reasons for going into Iraq. These are the same people that passed the patriot act 1, and 2. They act like they are so concerned, yeah right, now they are concerned. I for one will call "BULL#".

That this could happen to us is unbelievable. We are getting a huge, unbearable tax that nobody wants and the steam roller keeps going and there is no way to stop it. The first thing we need to do is to get rid of the Republican/Democrat labels. I for one am changing my party to independent and hope other people will too. I renounce Republican AND Democrat.

reply to post by JaxonRoberts


What ever happened to "my body, my choice". Now that liberals won the abortion argument for so long based on it, they apparently don't need it for their political purposes and therefore don't subscribe to the argument any longer when it comes to mandatory health care purchases.

I'm surprised you supporters are so enthusiastic about fascism... given who benefits the most... health insurance companies who will see to it you go to jail if you don't buy their product. After all, if the people didn't want this thing then who did? Well... I don't know exactly but I know the health insurance had its lobbyists and all the other industries had their lobbyists and since that is who the politicians get their money from that is who they were listening to through that process.

If universal health care is so great, get together with others who think the same thing and PAY FOR IT YOURSELF... rather than rounding up those who disagree and shoving you "charity" down their throats using forced compliance like fines, fees, and ultimately imprisonment and outright theft. There is a big gun on your side of the room and apparently you've never seen it.

Do not quote me on this, but I heard that they take your income into consideration. What if you do not work, but have a nice size nest egg? Does that factor into it? I can understand it would if it brought interest (which gets taxed) but what if it is just sitting somewhere, not drawing any interest? Like a normal checking account(s)?
And also, about this direct draft thing I also heard about...can they really go into your accounts and get what you owe them? This is scary, and also ties in to my earlier question.
The main problem I have with this bill is about abortions. I am pro choice, however I think that if someone makes the mistake (not an accident) of getting pregnant and do not want it, then they (the woman wanting the abortion) should take care of the cost. Other than that, I have no problem with helping other people out, as long as I don't go broke in the process, ya know? I haven't been to a doc in almost 5 years now...haven't been back since I had to pay 800 bucks out of pocket for simple, routine lab work that my insurance "doesn't cover". And I was paying $15 a week for that!
I understand other people go through astronomical bills, so I was not trying to make my situation out to be too terrible, although it was difficult for me. So please, no attacks.
So I do like some parts of it, but not all. If anyone can answer my questions, I will be forever grateful to you. Thank you!
-FCL

Edit to clarify.

[edit on 22-3-2010 by First Curiosity Last]

Originally posted by JaxonRoberts
Or is it OK if they waste our tax money as long as they have a frakkiin' (R) after their names????

So, if the R's did it in the past, it's OK for the D's to do it now??? Well, that makes no freakin sense.

Originally posted by JaxonRoberts
Here's another question for all of you GENIUSES out there: Remember those really EVIL variable rate mortgages that were given out to people who couldn't afford to pay them once the rate 'varied'??? You know, the financial instruments that caused the housing market to collapse, put MILLIONS of Americans out of work, and had the Wall Street Banksters getting bailed out by us taxpayers??? Why are those frakkin' things still legal??? Why hasn't ANYONE from EITHER side of the aisle proposed legislation to make those wretched things ILLEGAL???

Oh, really? A Variable Rate Mortgage has been around for years. Sometimes, they work out for the better for the person that has one, sometimes, it doesn't. It's a risk.

And you know something, Genius? The people that took at VRM didn't have to sign the freakin' paperwork!! No one had a gun to their head telling them to sign the mortgage.

Originally posted by JaxonRoberts
So go ahead and whine and moan about the damn Healthcare Reform Bill... You have EXACTLY the kind of Government you DESERVE!!!

And that's why a lot of the d-bags in office now will be out of a job in November.

Originally posted by cmaracing

Originally posted by Dock9
For those us of who are not American

would someone kindly explain, in approximate terms is fine, how much this new health care is going to cost the average American

and does it exceed what the average American was paying before ?

please

The same as one stealth bomber to begin with and in the end about 3 stealth bombers, with out cost overrides. Thats the cost of the program in all.

[edit on 22-3-2010 by cmaracing]

[edit on 22-3-2010 by cmaracing]

WOW...Stop the presses...God forbid we give up 3 stealth bombers to allow others to have...well make everyone have health care...I mean far be it from me that health care helps people..stealth bombers KILL people... As if our country needs to build any thing more to spread a little more destruction across the globe in the name of freedom.

This is what you suckers get for voting your Democrats and Republicans in office. He's to all of you thanks for tha taxes! I say we gather all you loose cannons who keep voting the idiots in office up and ship you off to another country so you can vote that country into the mess you have voted this one into! Try sitting home in November it can't hurt any more than what we have arrived at now.

reply to post by Wookiep


What about Obamas MASSIVE spending??

he trying to correct of all the drunken sailor spending in the 28 years
of republican control ! mostly the bush Family as Obama inherited all their mess and America is blaming him ! as in those last 28 years Reagan , DADDY BUSH, Clinton, JR Bush all Swear about doing some good to the Heath Care and not one American did anything to bash these presidents and they did nothing to very little ! and This President is trying push it forward!

don't worrie folks the Upper Class can keep their Health Insurance and wave the Insurance card like a golden ticket ! www.youtube.com... and be the First one's in a ER, Hospital, Clinic
or Wave it in front of a Doctor! that will surly work

if you really want to re think about this bill ! watch the documentary called Sicko
and watch a movie called John Q or Look at the other country's that have this Canada for example ! the biggest problem is a waiting list that civilians are on in Canada and the one's that have money can get a jump on the waiting list

what the Obama administration is doing is that you can keep your health insurance (golden ticket ) to jump to be first inline ! unlike the Other Countries Canada , UK etc.. and We can drop medicare/caid like a stone
it would be obsolete

man, if you guys are gonna sit here and bicker like children ( "NO, YOU ARE! NO- YOU ARE! NO YOU ARE!) at least will both sides argue from a platform that understands that BOTH PARTIES ARE BOUGHT AND PAID FOR. At least the tea party can save us...OOPS- bought and paid for. Coffee party? bought and paid for. Whatever type of device or fluidity you think you have against the elites, please realize that they have already thought of any honorable or legal avenue that you can, and already reversed engineered it so that it can be corrupted from it's inception. Thats why tptb are so very worried about the internet; it was somewhat un-forseen and enables the people of the world to almost get it together, and that messes up the plans. Remember, whatever the people construct in a legal fashion to repair the problem, the are 100% prepared to doom it to failure and then say "oops, another crisis we didnt see coming!" I like coming on this site, but it always makes me mad when people argue pointlessly about minutia because that is EXACTLY what keeps this whole cycle going for them- and against us.

* and also, please get away from this conditioned idea that msm taught you about "Obama inherited a mess Bush made."- NO- this is a strategically co-ordinated mess that has been in the planning stage for a very long time, Bush just happened to be the poster child of the system at the time when that stage of the plan was set into motion. And also realize that Obama has been incubated and nurtured his whole life under the wing of the elites to play his role as poster child now. If you are having a hard time understanding or believing that, go research his history. Look at the people that have played a role in his career- Brezenski, Kissinger, Cheney, etc., Obama is the cleanest one they got, and he is still super filthy, if you just LOOK.

[edit on 22-3-2010 by 12.13.2012]

The plebes are upset for a reason and the reasons vary.

Somewhere along the line we have become a race of tellers and dictators and not very good listeners.

One of the reasons that the plebes are so upset is because they are in fact tired of being told what to do, dictated to and talked at instead of being listened to and at least fairly considered.

The Original Post relies upon the premise that sweeping categorizations can be used that allow for the false belief than anyone complaining today does not deserve to be listened too because they were likely the same people who wouldn’t listen to you previously when complaining and sharing your concerns about something else at a different point in time.

So even by your own admission you didn’t enjoy that you now would rather operate under the self induced assumption that turnabout is fair play and a better idea than fostering a more compassionate environment that you had previously wanted when it came to having your own plebian concerns addressed in the past.

What has become of America where we become so intolerably cruel to one another based on imagined past slights.

Not that the slights are imagined but who is responsible for them is and who should be held to account for them is.

Once upon a time Americans prided themselves on having varying and different opinions and the ability to voice dissent and concern.

Once upon a time people actually first listened to and considered those arguments and didn’t reject them or dismiss them out of hand because at some point in the past their arguments were likewise rejected out of hand.

This attitude of shut up and sit down is so contrary to what democracy is. Democracy has become a team sport with only two teams with one constantly attempting to dictate, silence, stifle and genuinely and generally disregard the other.

Individualism is being lost and so is the ability to empathize and show compassion towards others, especially those with different views, perspectives and lifestyles.

One thing is for sure Health Care reform is not going to help what is truly ailing America and Americans and that is this negative divide and conquer attitude where anyone’s crimes, mistakes, or rudeness becomes justified based on someone’s previous crimes, mistakes or rudeness.

It’s a pitiful state of affairs and the cure really isn’t talking at and attempting to dictate to people, the cure is learning to show a little compassion and empathy and consider individuals as being individuals and not merely members of a homogenous group you have invented a definition of for that group and subsequently the individual you have cast into it in your own mind.

The Plebes are unhappy for a reason and isn’t it odd that no one really cares in Washington just why they are unhappy?

KUDOS!! Watching FOX News during the vote last evening proved once again that they are NOT fair and balanced...and as soon a Geraldo started to state common sense the production people would cut away.

Frankly, I'm sick and tired of obstructionist talk and action taken by the GOP since Obama took office. It's clearly evident to me that it's not all ideal based and has a lot more to do with us having a black commander-in-chief, a woman as Speaker and too many narrow minded good ole' boys in the party. It's truly a disgusting bunch of whiners and stuffed shirts.

When the people start to see the benefits of this reform and as it develops over the years, I hope the public remembers who tried to have it 'deep sixed' and voted accordingly.

reply to post by EMPIRE


That's a good point about raiding social security -- but this happened first under Reagan I think. Still... nice expose on Clinton.