The Great Lie is John 3:16

Originally posted by Aquarius1
reply to post by bwinwright

 

S&F for O.P., great thread, I like hearing the other side, the truth that is, having to go through Jesus just doesn't make sense, what did everyone do before he existed?

There wasn't anyone/thing before His existence - He has always been here. How that is possible? I don't know - I have a human brain like the rest of yall - so my brain capacity is limited too.

I can't grasp anything/one not having a beginning or an end. That is because humans are on our own time frame - God doesn't work on any "timeframe" like we do.

Understand that? lol I don't. But still, I accept it as faith - because I do feel that one day we will be allowed to understand that - and so much more.

reply to post by K J Gunderson


It gives examples, quotes from the Scripture, later on in other books of the Bible, that describe the dragon/serpent/satan -

In Genesis, no, it doesn't come out and say the serpent was satan - but if you read the rest of the Bible, you'll see in various places, as the resource gave, in the Bible where it tells the names that satan is known by - and one of those names is the "serpent".

reply to post by manna2


Satan used to be an angel of light, a good angel - but he chose to go bad.

And in the end days, he will show up again, as an angel of light, a good guy - how do you think he's going to pull of the entire antichrist sequel?

Don't be deceived - satan is a dead man walking, but he isn't a stupid dead man walking. And his main goal is to take as many of us as he can with him to hell.

reply to post by K J Gunderson


The Bible proves itself in what it says - you can find that info easily enough on Google.

Your views are common to "mankind" aka "the world". Which is ironic because on ATS, I thought that this community was all about not following the mass public. But it seems when it comes to God, and the Bible, all bets are off I guess.

You can say "Prove there's a God" and I can say "Prove there's not" til the cows not only come home, but come home blue faced.

The choice of believing or not believing is up to you - I pray that you will make the right choice - but again, that's up to you.



I cannot convince you to believe, my friend - and truth be known, it isn't my place to try. That choice, of whether to believe or not, is entirely left up to you - as it is left up to each person that has ever been on this earth, and all that are now, and all that will be.

God did the hard part - all we have to do is accept it as truth.

This is the exact wording from the King James Version of the Holy Bible, the most widely accepted version of the Holy Bible.

The King James version is the most widely accepted version of the Holy Bible for Protestants. It is not the most widely accepted version of the Holy Bible to the Jews, nor the Catholic Church.

Unfortunately, for all mankind, this verse is not only a lie,

No, this is your own opinion. To most God-fearing Christians who believe that their Lord and Savior is Jesus Christ, they do not view this verse as a lie. They view it as the truth.

but has served to force Christianity upon people in the most destructive fashion imaginable.

Be specific. The Crusades are over. I know of no place where the Roman Catholic Church is "forcing" Christianity upon people through violent means. Perhaps you have the Roman Catholic Church confused with militant Islam, which does attempt to force their religion on "infidels" through violent means.

This false teaching, initially attributed to Jesus by the Roman Emperor Constantine in 325 A.D., has been instrumental in the murdering of millions of innocent people over the past 1700 years.

The teaching is false only according to your opinion. Secondly, the verse is from Holy Scripture - the Book of John to be exact. Provide proof - not assertions - that Constantine wrote the Book of John.

How exactly does one verse advocating Jesus Christ as Savior translate into the assertion that this verse caused the murder of "millions of innocent people"? Be specific. Name time, place, and peoples that were murdered by the Roman Catholic Church in the name of this verse.

You neglect to mention the great charitable works of the Church - the many hospitals, orphanages, schools, and other charitable institutions of the Church. The Church is the sole religious institution that I know of that speaks openly against the evils of abortion. The Church is the sole advocate for the poor, the oppressed, and the dispossessed.

Have you ever read about Catholic Charities? Do you know the kind of work that Catholic Charities does?

What about all of the nuns and priests that work in the prison system to help prisoners during their time of despair and need?

Many monks, priests, and nuns have given their lives in charitable and philanthropic work on behalf of the Church.

There are two sides to this story, my friend. You condemn the Church on one hand, and neglect to mention the great charitable works of the Church on the other.

This same lie about the Pope being the most divine of all men and the Catholic Church being the ONLY path to God and Heaven is still being sold by the Catholic Church today. They continue to threaten eternal damnation in Hell for anyone who rejects this horrendous lie.

Have you been reading Blavatsky, or what? She has the same opinion. But then, she also believes that Satan is a pretty swell fellow, too.

The Catholic Church, since Vatican II, has become more ecumenical than it was in prior generations. This, to the anger and dismay of hardliner traditionalists within the Church.

Nevertheless, the Catholic Church - as with any other church or religion - certainly believes that the Church is the only route to Heaven. Just about every religion believes the same thing - The Baptists believe that their religion is the best, as do the Jews, and Muslims. Big deal!

The Church has strong beliefs about eternal damnation. Just because you don't believe the Church, doesn't make it a "horrendous lie". The real test will be when you stand before the Throne of God upon your death, and you must answer to Him as to why you rejected Him and tried to rip apart his Church on Earth. What will you say to Him then? What if you're wrong? What if Jesus Christ is, in fact, the only route to salvation?

And, curious enough, what other route could there be? What other kind of Savior would you want? Jesus Christ was perfect in every way. He was a healer, a teacher - kind, generous, loving, caring. He preached a Gospel of Truth. He cast out devils, healed the sick, raised the dead. And He sacrificed Himself for the forgiveness of our sins. What more do you want? What more could you ask for?

and strengthen his ability to control people at the same time, he needed a rule book, A Bible, to eliminate any confusion and make sure people were doing what he wanted them to do. Therefore, in 325 A.D. Constantine commissioned the writing of the first bible and Constantine also served as the Editor of the first Christian Bible.

The bulk of the Bible in the form of the Old Testament was around long, long before Constantine was even born. The laws, rules, regulations, and strictures of the Old Testament were in place long before Constantine was born. Just ask any Jewish Rabbi.

Much of the suppressed information pertained to the teachings of Jesus and others regarding the divine nature of all things, the all pervading nature of God, the fact that everything consists of this God. They taught about the Holy Trinity actually referring to the Omnipresence of God, the Omnipotence of God, and the Omniscience of God.

I think you would be hard pressed to find any Roman Catholic that would disagree with what you have stated above. How does this differ from Catholic teaching exactly? Are you saying that the Catholic Church doesn't believe in the Omnipotence of God? Huh?

There was far more discussion about the divine feminine which Constantine’s Bible almost totally suppressed.

So who do you think Mary, the Mother of God, was? The Catholic Church has literally thousands of books written about the Blessed Mother Mary.

No, ladies and gentlemen, the Great Lie is John 3:16.

Your opinion. Without much support or facts to back it up, I might add.

Jesus and his more spiritually minded friends who believed in the ONENESS of GOD and the divinity of ALL people, including ALL men and women, would have never have told the lie credited to him in John 3:16.

Bizarre. Are you saying that Jesus Christ Himself did not believe that He was the Son of God, capable of offering everlasting life, as the Savior of mankind? I can assure you, that Jesus Christ knew that He was the only Son of God.

Of course, the Catholic Church has evolved into the most evil and destructive institution in world history. For well documented proof of this, simply refer to Vatican Assassins by Eric Jon Phelps.

Unsubstantiated, broad generalizing statement. Without proof, nor factual evidence. Just the original poster's opinions.

Vatican Assassins, eh? How about reading the Catechism of the Catholic Church, and see if you agree with its moral philosophy of protecting the poor, serving the needs of the homeless, and fighting against the evils of abortion? The Catechism of the Catholic Church might actually give a lay reader some semblance as to what the Church really believes, and not some misguided conspiracy theorist's misguided opinions.

reply to post by nomorecruelty




Not in the case of christians , they have satan to blame an xtian never has to grow up and be accountable for his actions.

If he does good then it was inspired by god if he does bad then it was satan tempting him.

Never can you come across a more morally bankrupt group of people than xtians.

If an xtian takes responsibility for his own actions then he makes god and satan redundant.

[edit on 21-3-2010 by yodagod]

reply to post by CookieMonster09

No, ladies and gentlemen, the Great Lie is John 3:16. Your opinion. Without much support or facts to back it up, I might add.

The same rule applies to any alleged truth in john, considering the guy couldn't read or write it is only a fair assumption that john is all made up.

It was the RC church that changed the original Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday. That is just for starters.

No, the Jewish people still celebrate the Sabbath on Friday evening through Saturday evening.

Christians, who believe that the Old Law was fulfilled by the coming of Jesus Christ, celebrate the Lord's Day as Sunday. It was St. Paul that loosened many of the Jewish strictures of the Old Law for the Gentile Christian converts. Hence, Christians are not required to adhere to the Jewish kosher dietary laws, etc.

You miss the whole point. Christians have JESUS CHRIST as their Lord and Savior. The Old Law was replaced by the New, in the form of Jesus. The Jews reject Christ as the Messiah, even to this very day.

reply to post by nomorecruelty

God doesn't work on any "timeframe" like we do.

How do you know this ?

Did another person tell you ?

Did a voice in your head tell you ?

Or did you just wake up one morning and make it up to explain away some awkward question that would require the use of the faculty of reason?

Originally posted by nomorecruelty

Originally posted by Gwynniver

Bottom line - stop blaming God for mankind's evil choices.

I think that is quite impossible, because god created mankind. He is supposedly all-knowing, so he knew from scratch what we would be like. Yet he created us so he is definitely responsible for the misery of this world. He knew beforehand who would do what, so 1.) he created evil and 2.)there is no such thing as free will, because it was determined from day one what would happen. If god wouldn know that all, how can he be all-knowing
If you actually really believe in this god and what he says is true, then face up to the fact that he is indeed responsible.

God created mankind perfect - it was satan who approached Adam and Eve in the Garden and tempted them - which led to sin. From that point on, mankind was born into sin - we are, by and at birth, sinners separated from God. Enter Jesus Christ, who was sent as our only way out to avoid eternal damnation. IF we accept Him as our Lord and Savior, we escape eternal hell.

Again, it depends on us to make the right choice.

poppycock! If we had been created perfect then we would not have sinned and neither would Satan. This is all so absurd in a "have it both ways" kind of fashion. On one hand the believers argue that the entire universe is like "a well-made precision clock" of intricate design. Ditto for you and me. Then they turn around and claim that the designer is not to blame when the machine malfunctions! It's the machine's fault! Toyota would love that argument. Either we're intricately designed automitons, as the Christians believe, or we are the product of the natural functioning of the natural universe, as rational people believe. In the case of the automiton hypothesis, Christians claim that the Big Fall wasn't his fault because he designed us with free will. Of what use is "free will" without personal autonomy? I'm not truly free to make my own decisions if, after I choose to ignore a divine edict, I'm then cast into a burning lake to suffer torture for all eternity. I think the Nazis had a similar vision of "Free Will" where the Jews were concerned. FYI, that's not Free Will, that's brutal coercion! That's extreme mental cruelty. That's like god saying, "Here, Adam, I've given you hands but you're forbidden to use them!" DUH! Original sin is a stupid precept in a very silly religion.

reply to post by K J Gunderson


You look but you do not "see". Er, wait, I don't think you are even looking.

Revelation Chapter 12 v 9 "And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he saw cast out into the earth and his angels were cast out with him."

The Bible is clear on sin, but you don't care.

At times archeologists have found supporting evidence to corroborate places in the Bible.

Originally posted by dusty1
reply to post by K J Gunderson

 

You look but you do not "see". Er, wait, I don't think you are even looking.

Revelation Chapter 12 v 9 "And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he saw cast out into the earth and his angels were cast out with him."

The Bible is clear on sin, but you don't care.

At times archeologists have found supporting evidence to corroborate places in the Bible.

Revelations is NOT GENESIS.

Revelations is NOT talking about the serpent in the garden.

I never denied sin, just what people want to call a choice that is not.

Places exist. I never disputed that. Most of Stephen King's books take place in Maine. Maine exists!

[edit on 21-3-2010 by K J Gunderson]

reply to post by CookieMonster09

You miss the whole point. Christians have JESUS CHRIST as their Lord and Savior. The Old Law was replaced by the New, in the form of Jesus

Absolute nonsense jesus made his views on the law quite clear -

It is easier for Heaven and Earth to pass away than for the smallest part of the letter of the law to become invalid." Luke 16:17

The law of eating of the blood for example was so reprehensible to yahwhe that should it be broken there was no second chance the worst punishment possible would be incurred.

It is staggering to think that xtians ceremonially practice not only the consumption of blood but indeed the very blood of the god that outlawed the practice to begin with.

At no time did yahwhejesus change his own law, xtianity is a ludircous make it up as you go along cult

Never can you come across a more morally bankrupt group of people than xtians.

Wow. That's a lot of venom. I don't even want to know.

an xtian never has to grow up and be accountable for his actions.

I beg to differ. If anything, a true Christian is very much held to account for his actions, and inactions. He has a moral code to adhere to - the Ten Commandments. And, if he belongs to a community of like believers, is held to account for his actions. Many Christian communities have a very strict moral code.

The same rule applies to any alleged truth in john, considering the guy couldn't read or write it is only a fair assumption that john is all made up.

Proof. Facts. Evidence, please.

Or did you just wake up one morning and make it up to explain away some awkward question that would require the use of the faculty of reason?

Sarcasm. The point that he was trying to make was that God doesn't necessarily operate on man's time frame. Evidence? Just because you pray for a certain thing to come true, doesn't mean that it will, or even in the time frame that you want it to happen. Simple example.

On one hand the believers argue that the entire universe is like "a well-made precision clock" of intricate design. Ditto for you and me. Then they turn around and claim that the designer is not to blame when the machine malfunctions! It's the machine's fault!

Very simple. God gave man free will. Meaning, man has a choice to do good or evil.

We all just need to understand that people use religion (or atheism) as a form of separation from mainstream humanity.

I mean think about it. I'd be willing to wager that 99% of people here admittedly or not consider themselves in the 'superior' group of humanity in some way shape or form.

Be it nationality, religion, political orientation or whatnot. It is a severe problem with humanity that Christianity(among others) has taken advantage of.

Making people feel as if their way is the only way is totally wrong. There are always many ways to any destination, clear or not. Nothing is absolute.

Originally posted by nomorecruelty
reply to post by K J Gunderson

 

It gives examples, quotes from the Scripture, later on in other books of the Bible, that describe the dragon/serpent/satan -

In Genesis, no, it doesn't come out and say the serpent was satan - but if you read the rest of the Bible, you'll see in various places, as the resource gave, in the Bible where it tells the names that satan is known by - and one of those names is the "serpent".

Too bad you cannot just simply point that out. The truth has to be sussed out by reading inferences in other books now? Just because Satan was referred to as a serpent in Revelations does not mean that the serpent in Genesis was Satan. It does not say that ANYWHERE. You cannot show where it says it because it never says it. I just hoped you would show me where it said it but you did not.

Sorry to waste both our time in asking a bible believer to answer a simple question.

It is staggering to think that xtians ceremonially practice not only the consumption of blood but indeed the very blood of the god that outlawed the practice to begin with

Oh my goodness, brother.

First, we're talking about Good Friday. Do you understand Jewish tradition? Purchase a Jewish Siddur (prayer book), and see what ceremony the Jews - even to this very day - practice on Friday evenings - which, for the Jews, is the beginning of the Sabbath.

They break bread and drink wine - just as the Christians do. It was Christ Himself that made the correlation between the wine as His blood. Just as the Jews say prayers about the bread being God. The breaking of the bread, and the drinking of wine, is a longstanding Jewish tradition, my friend. Long before Good Friday ever occurred.

Originally posted by dakota1s2

I don't understand how you can make such a statement that John 3:16 is a big lie? How could you possibly know? It seems to me that you have a problem with Constantine or the Catholic Church.

The Council of Trent is where Catholic church leaders got together and put together some of the writings of Hebrews and Greeks and decided which writings would be put together in a group of books called the Bible.

There are thousands of manuscripts that confirm historical significance of those included and many not included in the Bible we have today. Not everyone agrees with the omission of or addition of the groups of books and writings called the today's bible.

Finally, you can chose to believe or disbelieve what John 3:16 says. What you or I believe doesn't make it true or false.

You are right, a personal opinion doesn't make it true or false. I know Jesus is real. This days, people confuse Jesus words with what the church had been doing and saying. Jesus never said "Religion is the answer", and His words are offered to everybody in the word, and He never say a lie.

To understand John 3:16, you need to put aside your science. Be saved by Him means decide to try follow his example, you'll still make mistakes but you'll continue waking in the same path He showed us.

Just because Satan was referred to as a serpent in Revelations does not mean that the serpent in Genesis was Satan. It does not say that ANYWHERE.

From the Art Scroll Stone Edition of the Chumash, page 15, regarding Genesis, Chapter 3, verses 1-14:
"The consensus of the narrators (note: Jewish sages) is that the serpent of the narrative was literally a serpent. They differ regarding what force it represented: the Evil Inclination, Satan, or the Angel of Death. According to the Midrash, before this cunning beast was cursed it stood erect and was endowed with some faculty of communication."