The Great Lie is John 3:16

what an insensitive jerky post.

Originally posted by K J Gunderson

Originally posted by nomorecruelty
Maybe you are too focused on 'being right' as opposed to knowing the truth?

Again - a reminder ......... God isn't going to allow a scoffer to understand His Scriptures. You have to seek Him, and His Word, with a genuine willingness to read and learn.

Not just to try to prove you are right.

You seem to have that completely backwards. I am only looking for the truth. This is why I am referring to the actual text instead of doing what you are doing and PRETENDING it says things that are not actually put down in words.

I am reading the words written and getting my facts from there. You have only been able to use other books so far and I showed that I can make my point by doing the same thing. Serpent is all kinds of things depending on which book you are reading so I am just looking at one book all by itself. Since the bible is not a series but a collection of varied works, unless one specifically references the other, you are just assuming.

I refuse to guess, assume, or just make things up in order to have it mean things it does not actually say. I would suggest that if you are interested in the truth, you stop trying so hard to find any path to being right you can and just look at the words like I am.

'

Thing is, the Bible was never intended for people to take a verse here, and a verse there, and try to understand the meaning.

You would need to read the entire Bible - front to back - in order to even begin to understand.

And while you may scoff at this, God opens up the meaning to people in all different ways - because we are all different people, at different points in our life, on different age levels.

So basically, I can read say, verse 2 of a chapter, and you could read the same, and we may come up with two different conclusions.

I tried to tell ya the Bible is not your ordinary work of literature.




[edit on 26-3-2010 by nomorecruelty]

Originally posted by nomorecruelty
Thing is, the Bible was never intended for people to take a verse here, and a verse there, and try to understand the meaning.

You would need to read the entire Bible - front to back - in order to even begin to understand.

And while you may scoff at this, God opens up the meaning to people in all different ways - because we are all different people, at different points in our life, on different age levels.

So basically, I can read say, verse 2 of a chapter, and you could read the same, and we may come up with two different conclusions.

I tried to tell ya the Bible is not your ordinary work of literature.

[edit on 26-3-2010 by nomorecruelty]

I understand that you believe that but it is not true. Men decided which BOOKS get included into the COLLECTION. There is no reason the believe the serpent in Genesis is the same serpent in Revelations and not one of the many other books I cited.

You want to believe the bible is ONE BOOK written by your god's inspiration but there is more evidence to the contrary. You know why the version you like so much is called the King James Version and not the God's Version, right?

Unless you had each and every book that should be in the bible, you are just guessing. You honestly have no way of knowing for certain if what you have is what all should be in there. Likewise, you do not really know if all the books that are in there should be. How could you?

Originally posted by K J Gunderson

Originally posted by nomorecruelty

Originally posted by K J Gunderson
reply to post by K J Gunderson

 

Let me try it this way.

Was that serpent also Satan?

Were all of those serpents also Satan? The Lord sent them down afterall.

So my question is...why should I believe that your quote from revelations is referring to the "serpent" in question any more than any of these other quotes?

This is what I was talking about before - some can read the Bible and not understand, some can read it and understand.

If you are only picking up the Bible to try to find, what you consider, "mistakes", or "contradictions", of course God isn't going to allow you to understand.

That is why He said He spoke in parables.

To bottom line it, your question should perhaps be .... "Why am I not understanding this as the believers are understanding it?".

The bottom line is that apparently you can not answer my question.

I asked a perfectly logical question that could easily be answered by anyone that does indeed understand that bible. I would think that as a Christian, you would feel obliged to help me understand what you understand.

You seem to be refusing to even try though. Please answer my question or admit you just are not sure.

I can answer you - but keep in mind, that it will by *my* answer as I see it - it might not be yours.

The serpent in Genesis was satan - the serpent that tempted Jesus in the desert was satan.
As far as I know, that is the only two serpents that are actually satan in the Bible.

There is a television Bible teacher, though, that believes, and teaches, that the forbidden fruit was actually satan - and Eve had sex with satan and that was her "eating of the forbidden fruit - the tree of knowledge".

I don't agree with him since Eve talked Adam into eating the fruit - the tree of knowledge - so ........ well, that wouldn't make much sense to me.

My point, even among believers/Christians there are varying opinions on the interpretation of the Scriptures.

Originally posted by nomorecruelty

I can answer you - but keep in mind, that it will by *my* answer as I see it - it might not be yours.

The serpent in Genesis was satan - the serpent that tempted Jesus in the desert was satan.
As far as I know, that is the only two serpents that are actually satan in the Bible.

Now we are getting somewhere. Now we both understand that serpents are all over the bible, correct? I thought you had used one in Revelations that was also supposed to be Satan, no?

So, how do you know that the serpent in Genesis is supposed to be Satan. It refers to it as a serpent and that is it. The only thing I have really been looking for is why this is your answer. There is no reason for me to read Genesis and then believe any other book written by another person is going to mean the same thing with a word. Likewise, there is nothing to indicate which usage of the word in which book to go with. So far, all you have is that it talked. Well, the tree was magic too so a talking snake is not all that out of the question.

So can you just tell me why this is your answer?

Originally posted by K J Gunderson

Originally posted by nomorecruelty
Thing is, the Bible was never intended for people to take a verse here, and a verse there, and try to understand the meaning.

You would need to read the entire Bible - front to back - in order to even begin to understand.

And while you may scoff at this, God opens up the meaning to people in all different ways - because we are all different people, at different points in our life, on different age levels.

So basically, I can read say, verse 2 of a chapter, and you could read the same, and we may come up with two different conclusions.

I tried to tell ya the Bible is not your ordinary work of literature.

[edit on 26-3-2010 by nomorecruelty]

I understand that you believe that but it is not true. Men decided which BOOKS get included into the COLLECTION. There is no reason the believe the serpent in Genesis is the same serpent in Revelations and not one of the many other books I cited.

You want to believe the bible is ONE BOOK written by your god's inspiration but there is more evidence to the contrary. You know why the version you like so much is called the King James Version and not the God's Version, right?

Unless you had each and every book that should be in the bible, you are just guessing. You honestly have no way of knowing for certain if what you have is what all should be in there. Likewise, you do not really know if all the books that are in there should be. How could you?

Ok, let's say, for the sake of this thread, that you are correct. My mother/grandmother/great grandmother/great great grandmother and so forth, all read from the King James Bible.

IF we humans today do not have the entire Scripture, I don't think God will hold it against us if we did not have a "completed" Bible.

God judges us on our knowledge - not what we "should" have known.

Take for example, the Sabbath - most "Christians" worship this on Sunday. I did for over 40 years - careful to try not to do 'work' on this day.

Come to find out? The Catholic church now admits they were who was responsible for changing the original Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday. I.e. I, and billions others, have been worshiping on the wrong day of the week.

Will God hold that against the ones who worshiped on Sunday instead of Sat?
I would say 'no'. How were we supposed to know - at least until the age of the internet.

Originally posted by nomorecruelty
There is a television Bible teacher, though, that believes, and teaches, that the forbidden fruit was actually satan - and Eve had sex with satan and that was her "eating of the forbidden fruit - the tree of knowledge".

I don't agree with him since Eve talked Adam into eating the fruit - the tree of knowledge - so ........ well, that wouldn't make much sense to me.

My point, even among believers/Christians there are varying opinions on the interpretation of the Scriptures.

So can you just admit then that you are simply basing it on belief and not really any particular written fact. That was all I was looking for. I have no issue with you believing whatever you want. I was looking for definitive proof that it was more than a belief. Sorry it took so much to get here.

Originally posted by nomorecruelty
Ok, let's say, for the sake of this thread, that you are correct. My mother/grandmother/great grandmother/great great grandmother and so forth, all read from the King James Bible.

IF we humans today do not have the entire Scripture, I don't think God will hold it against us if we did not have a "completed" Bible.

God judges us on our knowledge - not what we "should" have known.

You just told me in another thread that your god will not even allow people like me to understand the bible. Your exact word was "allowed." So how can he judge me on ignorance he forced me to have?

Besides, what are you basing this on? Think about it. You are basing it on the very book that you admit may not be perfect. What if the parts that are wrong are the parts that lead you to believe he would be ok with that?

Take for example, the Sabbath - most "Christians" worship this on Sunday. I did for over 40 years - careful to try not to do 'work' on this day.

Come to find out? The Catholic church now admits they were who was responsible for changing the original Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday. I.e. I, and billions others, have been worshiping on the wrong day of the week.

Will God hold that against the ones who worshiped on Sunday instead of Sat?
I would say 'no'. How were we supposed to know - at least until the age of the internet.

I am not sure I can relate worshiping on the wrong day to stoning a person to death for using magic. You are justifying.

Originally posted by K J Gunderson

Originally posted by nomorecruelty

I can answer you - but keep in mind, that it will by *my* answer as I see it - it might not be yours.

The serpent in Genesis was satan - the serpent that tempted Jesus in the desert was satan.
As far as I know, that is the only two serpents that are actually satan in the Bible.

Now we are getting somewhere. Now we both understand that serpents are all over the bible, correct? I thought you had used one in Revelations that was also supposed to be Satan, no?

So, how do you know that the serpent in Genesis is supposed to be Satan. It refers to it as a serpent and that is it. The only thing I have really been looking for is why this is your answer. There is no reason for me to read Genesis and then believe any other book written by another person is going to mean the same thing with a word. Likewise, there is nothing to indicate which usage of the word in which book to go with. So far, all you have is that it talked. Well, the tree was magic too so a talking snake is not all that out of the question.

So can you just tell me why this is your answer?

The angle I go on to have my opinion on the Genesis satan is that Eve later bore Cain and Abel. Cain was the evil one, as he ended up murdering his brother, Abel. BUT it says in there that God didn't like Cain due to him being evil - and that for murdering his brother, God caused a "mark" on Cain's body - so that the world would know how evil he was.

We were raised believing that Eve conceived Abel with Adam, but conceived Cain with satan. There are a slew more "hints" about this, especially in Genesis but I can't remember them verbatim. I may be wrong on that angle - I may be right - all I can do is like everyone else, read and ask God to open up my eyes and ears to the truth.

I think that is the fun part of the Bible though - it's like reading a mystery at times - you try to figure out if it's written in a parable or to be taken literally. I used to think, when I was little, that Revelation was to be taken literally - and there was actually going to be a beast with 7 heads and all.



But bottom line, when/if you read it, you may come to another conclusion, or the same - it would depend on you and where you are at in regards to where God wants you to be in your life.

Originally posted by K J Gunderson

Originally posted by nomorecruelty
There is a television Bible teacher, though, that believes, and teaches, that the forbidden fruit was actually satan - and Eve had sex with satan and that was her "eating of the forbidden fruit - the tree of knowledge".

I don't agree with him since Eve talked Adam into eating the fruit - the tree of knowledge - so ........ well, that wouldn't make much sense to me.

My point, even among believers/Christians there are varying opinions on the interpretation of the Scriptures.

So can you just admit then that you are simply basing it on belief and not really any particular written fact. That was all I was looking for. I have no issue with you believing whatever you want. I was looking for definitive proof that it was more than a belief. Sorry it took so much to get here.

Oh no, no, no - most of the Bible, and my belief in God relies on faith and faith alone.

However, scientists and archaeologists are still discovering things all the time that keep providing evidence from the Biblical days. Hey, I'm human too - I understand totally that it takes a whole lot of faith to grasp the Red Sea parting long enough, and wide enough for a bunch of people to pass through. Things like that, all we can do is accept it on faith - and the Bible reminds us time and time again to have faith.

The Biblical discoveries are pretty mind blowing though - and an added plus, as we get on into the end days as we are doing, God says He will be showing us more and more signs of His return, and of He, Himself. The Bible says to watch the skies and stars.

Originally posted by nomorecruelty

The angle I go on to have my opinion on the Genesis satan is that Eve later bore Cain and Abel. Cain was the evil one, as he ended up murdering his brother, Abel. BUT it says in there that God didn't like Cain due to him being evil - and that for murdering his brother, God caused a "mark" on Cain's body - so that the world would know how evil he was.

We were raised believing that Eve conceived Abel with Adam, but conceived Cain with satan. There are a slew more "hints" about this, especially in Genesis but I can't remember them verbatim. I may be wrong on that angle - I may be right - all I can do is like everyone else, read and ask God to open up my eyes and ears to the truth.

I think that is the fun part of the Bible though - it's like reading a mystery at times - you try to figure out if it's written in a parable or to be taken literally. I used to think, when I was little, that Revelation was to be taken literally - and there was actually going to be a beast with 7 heads and all.

But bottom line, when/if you read it, you may come to another conclusion, or the same - it would depend on you and where you are at in regards to where God wants you to be in your life.

That is all I ever wanted to hear. This is just what you believe and there is really nothing to prove it for a fact. Thanks for the fun talk but I think we reached an agreement.

Originally posted by K J Gunderson

Originally posted by nomorecruelty
Ok, let's say, for the sake of this thread, that you are correct. My mother/grandmother/great grandmother/great great grandmother and so forth, all read from the King James Bible.

IF we humans today do not have the entire Scripture, I don't think God will hold it against us if we did not have a "completed" Bible.

God judges us on our knowledge - not what we "should" have known.

You just told me in another thread that your god will not even allow people like me to understand the bible. Your exact word was "allowed." So how can he judge me on ignorance he forced me to have?

Besides, what are you basing this on? Think about it. You are basing it on the very book that you admit may not be perfect. What if the parts that are wrong are the parts that lead you to believe he would be ok with that?

Take for example, the Sabbath - most "Christians" worship this on Sunday. I did for over 40 years - careful to try not to do 'work' on this day.

Come to find out? The Catholic church now admits they were who was responsible for changing the original Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday. I.e. I, and billions others, have been worshiping on the wrong day of the week.

Will God hold that against the ones who worshiped on Sunday instead of Sat?
I would say 'no'. How were we supposed to know - at least until the age of the internet.

I am not sure I can relate worshiping on the wrong day to stoning a person to death for using magic. You are justifying.

There's alot in the Bible that I may not understand, or even agree with, causing me to question - but the Bible says that God's ways are not our ways. So I accept that He has it all in control.

I mean, you're talking about the Creator of it all here - so I feel stupid sometimes for even trying to understand alot in the Bible. But I also know that if I keep reading and keep believing, He will reveal what He wants me to know.

Originally posted by K J Gunderson

Originally posted by nomorecruelty

The angle I go on to have my opinion on the Genesis satan is that Eve later bore Cain and Abel. Cain was the evil one, as he ended up murdering his brother, Abel. BUT it says in there that God didn't like Cain due to him being evil - and that for murdering his brother, God caused a "mark" on Cain's body - so that the world would know how evil he was.

We were raised believing that Eve conceived Abel with Adam, but conceived Cain with satan. There are a slew more "hints" about this, especially in Genesis but I can't remember them verbatim. I may be wrong on that angle - I may be right - all I can do is like everyone else, read and ask God to open up my eyes and ears to the truth.

I think that is the fun part of the Bible though - it's like reading a mystery at times - you try to figure out if it's written in a parable or to be taken literally. I used to think, when I was little, that Revelation was to be taken literally - and there was actually going to be a beast with 7 heads and all.

But bottom line, when/if you read it, you may come to another conclusion, or the same - it would depend on you and where you are at in regards to where God wants you to be in your life.

That is all I ever wanted to hear. This is just what you believe and there is really nothing to prove it for a fact. Thanks for the fun talk but I think we reached an agreement.

Well, just don't discount all of the physical "hard" evidence out there - and more will be coming.

There is a lot that can be proved - and probably just as much that can't be - at least for right now.

You just told me in another thread that your god will not even allow people like me to understand the bible. Your exact word was "allowed." So how can he judge me on ignorance he forced me to have?

Besides, what are you basing this on? Think about it. You are basing it on the very book that you admit may not be perfect. What if the parts that are wrong are the parts that lead you to believe he would be ok with that?

=================================================

If a person outright rejects Jesus Christ, and refuses to even attempt to read the Bible - that would probably not be wise in the salvation sense.

A scoffer can always turn their scoffing around.



But if, say, you had been raised to believe a certain thing in the Bible, and didn't understand it any other way, I don't think He would hold that against a person.

And I said God wouldn't "allow" you, or anyone, to understand the Bible if their goal was just to scoff and ridicule.

If a person sincerely attempts to read and understand the Words, and ask God to open up their eyes, and ears - you might be surprised at how much you'll then start to understand about what's written.

reply to post by K J Gunderson


You are a complete tool. This thread should be renamed "K J Gunderson, The Great Lie".

Gunderson wants to plant seeds of doubt in believers minds. I think the Serpent in Genesis was really K J Gunderson.

I don't know where it says this in there, but it says that God will not be mocked.

God knows all of our hearts - evil, good, indifferent, etc. He knows when we are sincere and when we are just trying to yank random chains of people about the Bible, or Him.

And before I forget to tell you - I've already asked God to speak to your heart - and I will continue to ask Him for this.

Originally posted by dusty1
reply to post by K J Gunderson

 

You are a complete tool. This thread should be renamed "K J Gunderson, The Great Lie".

Gunderson wants to plant seeds of doubt in believers minds. I think the Serpent in Genesis was really K J Gunderson.

Aw don't beat someone down like that - I personally think our week long? LOL...... conversation has been good for the both of us.

Pray for the non believers - and believers - I can always use the extra prayers.

reply to post by nomorecruelty


Galatians 6 v7 "Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap."

reply to post by nomorecruelty


2 Corinthians 4v 4 "In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them."

I think Manfred Mann sang it best.

Originally posted by nomorecruelty
Oh no, no, no - most of the Bible, and my belief in God relies on faith and faith alone.

That is all cool. Honestly I have no problem with that. You are not the only one that believes the things that you do so I am simply trying to find someone who can clearly show me why that belief exists to begin with is all.

However, scientists and archaeologists are still discovering things all the time that keep providing evidence from the Biblical days.

That is a stretch now isn't it? What have they discovered that other books do not also contain? That people and places existed? They have yet to find any evidence of any of the miracles in the bible or any of what I would call magic. Clive Barker writes about people and places that 2000 years from now will check out historically and archeologically. Does that make "Candyman" true?

Hey, I'm human too - I understand totally that it takes a whole lot of faith to grasp the Red Sea parting long enough, and wide enough for a bunch of people to pass through. Things like that, all we can do is accept it on faith - and the Bible reminds us time and time again to have faith.

The thing is, while I respect that you are willing to go that route, I just cannot bring myself to do it. I need more than faith. I am looking for real solid answers because faith just has not cut it for me personally.

The Biblical discoveries are pretty mind blowing though - and an added plus, as we get on into the end days as we are doing, God says He will be showing us more and more signs of His return, and of He, Himself. The Bible says to watch the skies and stars.

I have yet to see any mind blowing biblical discoveries and ATS has had a few threads about that. I am sure there are plenty of things I do not know so I would be thrilled to see some of them. Would you be willing to start a thread? I would start one for you even if you were willing to bring the goods. What do you say?