The Great Lie is John 3:16

Originally posted by nomorecruelty

There's alot in the Bible that I may not understand, or even agree with, causing me to question - but the Bible says that God's ways are not our ways. So I accept that He has it all in control.

I mean, you're talking about the Creator of it all here - so I feel stupid sometimes for even trying to understand alot in the Bible. But I also know that if I keep reading and keep believing, He will reveal what He wants me to know.

Let me see if I can get you to understand my issue as you kind of illustrated it above. The book is a tad flawed as you can admit. Not that it is wrong but if it were perfect, you would have no questions. So, right or wrong, it is still not perfect if it leaves room for doubt.

You can accept those doubts because you understand that god knows better than you.

Where did you learn about that god, again? Oh right, that flawed collection of books.

See my issue?

Basically it is the same as if I said I was God. Then I said a bunch of stuff that made no sense. You are choosing to believe that you can overlook that stuff because after all, I am God. Of course, I am the one that told you I was God but hey...

See my point?

reply to post by K J Gunderson


"You are the snake to my mongoose.. or is it the mongoose to my snake?"

Originally posted by nomorecruelty


Well, just don't discount all of the physical "hard" evidence out there - and more will be coming.

There is a lot that can be proved - and probably just as much that can't be - at least for right now.

Willing to start a thread?

reply to post by K J Gunderson



Should we trust a document thousands of years old, or you, K J Gunderson?

Originally posted by nomorecruelty


You just told me in another thread that your god will not even allow people like me to understand the bible. Your exact word was "allowed." So how can he judge me on ignorance he forced me to have?

Besides, what are you basing this on? Think about it. You are basing it on the very book that you admit may not be perfect. What if the parts that are wrong are the parts that lead you to believe he would be ok with that?

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If a person outright rejects Jesus Christ, and refuses to even attempt to read the Bible - that would probably not be wise in the salvation sense.

A scoffer can always turn their scoffing around.

But if, say, you had been raised to believe a certain thing in the Bible, and didn't understand it any other way, I don't think He would hold that against a person.

And I said God wouldn't "allow" you, or anyone, to understand the Bible if their goal was just to scoff and ridicule.

If a person sincerely attempts to read and understand the Words, and ask God to open up their eyes, and ears - you might be surprised at how much you'll then start to understand about what's written.

Right, so again I ask. If your god has deemed that I remain ignorant from his will then we have a big issue come judgment day.

According to you, he will decide if bad deeds were sins or simply ignorance because ignorance will win them a pass.

When I show up, he has no judgment to make. He made me ignorant and kept me ignorant so no matter what I did, I just get to walk on in.

Maybe you meant something else in that other thread?

Originally posted by dusty1
reply to post by K J Gunderson

 

You are a complete tool. This thread should be renamed "K J Gunderson, The Great Lie".

Gunderson wants to plant seeds of doubt in believers minds. I think the Serpent in Genesis was really K J Gunderson.

Thoughtful, intelligent, witty, sweet, and well written. Let me give you a star for making such a good point and putting it so well. You completely turned me around. While NMC actually has me interested and listening and paying attention, a response like this makes me hit ignore almost right away. I am sure that is how your Jesus would have handled it too.

Lucky for you, no ignore just yet. I want to see how far down your throat you get your foot.

reply to post by K J Gunderson

Thoughtful, intelligent, witty, sweet, and well written. Let me give you a star for making such a good point and putting it so well.

Thank you K J!

While NMC actually has me interested and listening and paying attention

Said the spider to the fly.

Originally posted by nomorecruelty
I don't know where it says this in there, but it says that God will not be mocked.

God knows all of our hearts - evil, good, indifferent, etc. He knows when we are sincere and when we are just trying to yank random chains of people about the Bible, or Him.

And before I forget to tell you - I've already asked God to speak to your heart - and I will continue to ask Him for this.

I hope dusty is paying attention.

This is the kind of thing that makes me more willing to listen and be open minded. I think that if more xtians in general were like this, I would have a more open mind in general about religion. I really appreciate that no matter the differences, you think your god can save me and still would ask him to.

Originally posted by nomorecruelty

Originally posted by dusty1
reply to post by K J Gunderson

 

You are a complete tool. This thread should be renamed "K J Gunderson, The Great Lie".

Gunderson wants to plant seeds of doubt in believers minds. I think the Serpent in Genesis was really K J Gunderson.

Aw don't beat someone down like that - I personally think our week long? LOL...... conversation has been good for the both of us.

Pray for the non believers - and believers - I can always use the extra prayers.

I will back you up and say that if it were not for this, I would probably not have been talking about Christianity or it's god with anyone at all. You get a bunch of stars just for your valiant effort. I think what dusty fails to realize is that you have kept me here, listening to you talk about your god as much as me talking to you about my nothing.

Originally posted by dusty1
reply to post by K J Gunderson

 

Should we trust a document thousands of years old, or you, K J Gunderson?

Neither. I do not expect you to trust me about anything. I am simply asking questions from a purely analytical point of view. Besides, your document is not thousands of years old. It is a number of documents edited and translated and re-issued by men. It is not one unchanged story. It is a collection of evolving books that have been bound together with some being left out.

I am not trying to persuade anyone of anything or prove anything to anyone. I have questions and am looking for the answers. I know it is upsetting that someone like me will not simply take "Well it just is!!!!" as an answer but that is just who I am. There is no reason you need to concern yourself with it if it bothers you.

Originally posted by dusty1

Thank you K J!

Sarcasm detection is not exactly one of your better skills is it?

Said the spider to the fly.

That would imply that I am looking to prey upon NMC. Can you back that kind of thing up or are you just saying things to be nasty?

reply to post by K J Gunderson

You get a bunch of stars just for your valiant effort. I think what dusty fails to realize is that you have kept me here, listening to you talk about your god as much as me talking to you about my nothing.

I'm getting all choked up. You get a slow clap after that speech.

My problem with you is this. Your tone is one of mocking and ridicule. I see this all the time on ATS by some atheists. You won't be persuaded into belief. You try to sow seeds of doubt.

You don't like the bible because it judges you, and you can't handle it.

What motivates you? What motivates NMC? He wants you to be saved. What do you wish for him?

There is still hope for you K J, but first you would have to eat a big slice of humble pie, but I don't think you will.

Originally posted by dusty1

I'm getting all choked up. You get a slow clap after that speech.

My problem with you is this. Your tone is one of mocking and ridicule. I see this all the time on ATS by some atheists. You won't be persuaded into belief. You try to sow seeds of doubt.

What is the view like from inside that glass house?

What was the first thing you said to me?

You are a complete tool. This thread should be renamed "K J Gunderson, The Great Lie"

My attitude? If you are sprouting doubt, that is because of your garden as I have attempted to plant NOTHING. Perhaps you need to tend your own.

You don't like the bible because it judges you, and you can't handle it.

No, it is a book. It is not an animate object. It judges no one. I have lots of reasons for not liking it but being capable of judgment is not one of them.

What motivates you? What motivates NMC? He wants you to be saved. What do you wish for him?

Understanding motivates me. I want NMC to help me understand where these beliefs come from.

There is still hope for you K J, but first you would have to eat a big slice of humble pie, but I don't think you will.

Not if it served up by a waitress coming to the table with "You are a tool!"

reply to post by K J Gunderson

No, it is a book. It is not an animate object. It judges no one. I have lots of reasons for not liking it but being capable of judgment is not one of them.

You are wrong. Hebrews 4 v12 says "For the word of God is quick and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart."

But I do think it is interesting you referred to the bible as a book, not books.

A book has a beginning and end. Take the story of the talking snake at the beginning of the book, it is later exposed as Satan at the end of the book.

The butler did it, no wait, the snake did it.

That's why you have to read the whole thing.



Would you like that with a side of fries?



[edit on 27-3-2010 by dusty1]

Originally posted by dusty1

You are wrong. Hebrews 4 v12 says "For the word of God is quick and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart."

But I do think it is interesting you referred to the bible as a book, not books.

This is getting sad. You will see also that I have pointed out that it is not actually one book by one author but a collection of books. I have said that over and over again. For the purposes of whether or not it is capable of judgment, it is simply a bunch of pages bound between two covers- a book. If you did not catch what I meant, then please read some of my posts.

A book has a beginning and end. Take the story of the talking snake at the beginning of the book, it is later exposed as Satan at the end of the book.

Now you are getting back into semantics and for the story of cohesive story telling, you are wrong. If it is just one long book, that same serpent is also revealed to be nothing but a snake in many other parts of the book. Then again, you would have to have read my posts in order to comment on the things I have already pointed out.

The butler did it, no wait, the snake did it.

That's why you have to read the whole thing.

The whole thing is a collection of books by different authors. There are serpents all over the book. Can you show me where Revelations specifically states that the serpent in Revelations is the same as the one in Genesis? There are other serpents in the bible so you are going to have to show me how you can determine which ones refer to which ones. Can you do that?

reply to post by K J Gunderson

The whole thing is a collection of books by different authors.

Yeah, like a history textbook or science textbook, when they compile works from different historians and researchers and compile it into one textbook?

Originally posted by dusty1
reply to post by K J Gunderson

 

The whole thing is a collection of books by different authors.

Yeah, like a history textbook or science textbook, when they compile works from different historians and researchers and compile it into one textbook?

No, not exactly. A textbook is actually one cohesive collection of works that is clear about which parts refer to which other parts. The bible is more like putting a science book, history book, and math book together and calling that one book. Since many of the same things actually mean something different in science books than they do in math books, you will not be able to say that every instance of everything else just refers to something in another book.

Besides, I already told you that if you wanted to play that game then you still have to explain to me why it has to be the serpent in Revelations and not any of the other serpents I went and pointed out that are in the bible.

If you want to call it one book as in literally one work, then go for it. Now answer my second question then.

reply to post by K J Gunderson

you still have to explain to me why it has to be the serpent in Revelations and not any of the other serpents I went and pointed out that are in the bible.

Because outside of Disney movies, snakes don't really talk. Have you ever heard of a puppet? Do you really think it was just a snake?

You believe that you're clever because the name Satan or Devil isn't specifically mentioned in the story. Are you some kind of Satanic apologist?

I find it fascinating that you don't believe in the bible, yet you want to use the Genesis account to prove a point. But oh no, we can't use any other part of the bible to prove our point.

The bible is a unique book penned by multiple humans over thousands of years. It gives people a little history, a little prophesy, a little human psychology and instructs humans how to live their lives. It gives examples of peoples mistakes, and triumphs, and is critical of its own writers (talk about peer review). It promotes love, kindness, mercy, forgiveness, cleanliness and literacy.

It also give us a little bit of hope.


What do you have K J ?

Oh, yeah, a talking snake.

Originally posted by dusty1

Because outside of Disney movies, snakes don't really talk. Have you ever heard of a puppet? Do you really think it was just a snake?

Trees are usually magic though? Have you read the bible? There are all kinds of things that only happen in Disney movies in the bible. So I am to assume anything not natural sounding is the devil? Outside Disney movies, women are not made from a man's rib. Outside Disney movies your two children will not magically have wives that did not exist.

I also pointed out a verse in the bible that talks about flaming serpents falling from the sky - SENT BY GOD.

Outside of Disney movies, how many snakes have you seen falling from the sky on fire? Were those snakes also Satan then? Going by your amazing criteria, YEP. Going by the bible, NO.

You believe that you're clever because the name Satan or Devil isn't specifically mentioned in the story. Are you some kind of Satanic apologist?

I believe I can read and I am not finding any thing that says that snake is the same thing as God's favorite angel cast in to hell. I am sorry that you think being able to read makes me appear to think I am clever. I do not mean to brag about my ability to decipher words when written down.

I find it fascinating that you don't believe in the bible, yet you want to use the Genesis account to prove a point. But oh no, we can't use any other part of the bible to prove our point.

Why should you use any other part? Can you use a physics book to explain the things you read in an English book? Can you use a Chemistry book to explain logarithms? Why should I be so willing to use other unrelated books written by different people at different times about different things?

Would you like to tell me all about how Tom Clancy explains in Red October why Stephen King uses Maine so often?

Why can't you use Genesis to explore Genesis? Are you saying it is not complete? I thought it was your god's perfect message?

Anyway, please go back to the first paragraph and spend a little time on that before responding.

The bible is a unique book penned by multiple humans over thousands of years. It gives people a little history, a little prophesy, a little human psychology and instructs humans how to live their lives. It gives examples of peoples mistakes, and triumphs, and is critical of its own writers (talk about peer review). It promotes love, kindness, mercy, forgiveness, cleanliness and literacy.

It also give us a little bit of hope.


What do you have K J ?

Oh, yeah, a talking snake.

Originally posted by K J Gunderson

Originally posted by nomorecruelty

There's alot in the Bible that I may not understand, or even agree with, causing me to question - but the Bible says that God's ways are not our ways. So I accept that He has it all in control.

I mean, you're talking about the Creator of it all here - so I feel stupid sometimes for even trying to understand alot in the Bible. But I also know that if I keep reading and keep believing, He will reveal what He wants me to know.

Let me see if I can get you to understand my issue as you kind of illustrated it above. The book is a tad flawed as you can admit. Not that it is wrong but if it were perfect, you would have no questions. So, right or wrong, it is still not perfect if it leaves room for doubt.

You can accept those doubts because you understand that god knows better than you.

Where did you learn about that god, again? Oh right, that flawed collection of books.

See my issue?

Basically it is the same as if I said I was God. Then I said a bunch of stuff that made no sense. You are choosing to believe that you can overlook that stuff because after all, I am God. Of course, I am the one that told you I was God but hey...

See my point?

Actually, no, I don't see your point - I have not said the Bible was flawed in any way - it is not flawed, it doesn't contain errors, or contradictions.

Now, with that said, I did say there is a lot in there that I myself have to take with faith - and alot that has been physically proved.

But my lack of understanding isn't cause to determine anything in the Bible is not correct. I take the Bible, in complete, with faith in spite of my not understanding some things written.

Also, when I said that for the sake of debate, let's say the Bible is not the complete Scriptures.......... I said that as a hypothetical approach - not as a solid evidential statement, because you kept saying "What if it isn't the complete Scriptures?".