Burn victim verifies elevator explodes during 'impact' to North Tower not during collapse

reply to post by LaBTop


Source:

sites.google.com...


""For an elevator’s cables to be cut and result in dropping the car to the bottom of the shaft, the cables would need to have been in the aircraft impact debris path, floors 93 through 98 in WTC 1 or floors 78 through 83 in WTC 2. Inspection of the elevator riser diagram and architectural floor plans for WTC 1 shows that the following elevators met these criteria: cars 81 through 86 (Bank B) and 87 through 92 (Bank C), local cars in Zone III; car 50, the freight elevator, and car 6, the Zone III shuttle. … Cars 6 and 50 could have fallen all the way to the pit in the sub-basement level, and car 50 in WTC 1 was reported to have done so.""

My 2 cts.

reply to post by thedman


You are leaving off the part about a bomb in the basement doesn't cause the building to start collapsing from the 80th floor (or whatever).

reply to post by SphinxMontreal

How could there have been explosions in the lobby at the "exact moment" of impact, when cascading jet fuel or magical fire balls require a certain amount of time to travel down 800 feet? The two events you describe could only occur simultaneously if the explosions at the alleged point of impact on the 79th floor and the explosions in the lobby were two separate events.

The reports quoted earlier in the thread all describe the fireballs in the elevator shafts in the subbasement or wherever well after the impact, one states 'about 30 seconds later'. How do you make this out to be "at the exact moment" of impact. 30 seconds is plenty of time for a shock wave and/or fire ball to move down the shafts.

reply to post by _BoneZ_

Thedman, I don't deny that kerosene can be explosive, but to the extent seen on so many different lower floors? Not a chance.

Did you not read the post above that shows that Jet Fuel (which is 'extra special' kerosine, by the way - not the same stuff you use in your camp stove), has an energy content of 43 KJ/kg, ten times that of TNT? And that the damage to the lower floors could have been done by less that 250 pounds of Jet A? And that 2500 pounds of TNT would have taken a pretty damn big truck and wouldn't have been experienced a 'bit of a whump' by people in the basement a few feet away? Hint, it's on the first page of this thread.

Obviously not (well not obviously actually, more like obviously ignored so you can continue to pretend that you are ignorant), so I'll repeat the part that is explicitly relevant to your specific question.

originally posted by Six Sigma
The energy density of Jet A is approximately 43 MJ / kg (remember that number for later). The typical yardstick, TNT, is a mere 4.2 MJ / kg, ten times less. Exotic, impractical, high-powered explosives such as octanitrocubane only get up to about 7.5 to 8 MJ / kg, still a factor of five below Jet A. It really doesn't matter what explosive compound you fantasize about, they just aren't going to give you more energy than the jet fuel, unless you propose a fantastic amount of it. I can only assume you don't know much about explosives.

That quote is itself extracted from a source (that is in turn linked to in that post - so please go look it up to see the calculation and justification) that goes on to say that only 290kg (about 640 pounds) or about 100 US Gallons of Jet A would be required to the damage you are so incredulous about. And that is taking all of the overestimates possible so that much less would actually suffice.

Furthermore..

from the same source as above
24,000 pounds of fuel is the estimate that NIST gave for the amount of fuel running into the lower structure. NIST estimated that there were 66,100 pounds of fuel in AA11 and 62,000 pounds in UA175 at impact (NCSTAR1-2B, pg. 171). Of those totals, NIST estimated that 20% was consumed in the initial fireballs, 40% was distributed on the impact floors, and 40% drained or flowed into the lower structure (NCSTAR1-5F pg. 56).

The 24,000 pound figure is, of course, a 'guestimate' and the even author of this analysis thinks it is too high. At the same time is clear that 640 pounds is way below what would be the actual figure. Way below.

Since you haven't commented on or attempted to refute anything that post, you are clearly pretending that it isn't there, that you haven't been proven wrong beyond a doubt, and that an "argument from personal incredulity" is possible and justifiable. Well it ain't.




[edit on 18/4/2010 by rnaa]

reply to post by LaBTop


I swear, after reading your posts after mine and _BoneZ_, all of you skeptics answering to our posts did not even read one post of the master thread I posted :

Basement explosions
z10.invisionfree.com...

and did not (want to?) understand what I was saying in my post, linked to above.

Elevator emergency MECHANICAL brakes functioned perfectly !
Read NIST's witness reports.
All elevator shafts were surrounded by dry wall plates, EXCEPT at the lowest levels, that was re-bar enforced CONCRETE.

Remember that, of Korean descent, police man and his party of a few others who survived the collapse in that last part of the stairwells around the elevator shafts?
They were saved because that was the ONLY part made of concrete.
And all the other stairwells and shafts above that were covered with dry wall plates. Which would have been blown up first.

And you can not compare the explosive power of Jet 5 fuel to real explosives the way this above poster did.
Try to blow up a steel column with your 300 gallons of Jet 5 fuel.
Good luck! Impossible.
But you will cut it like butter with a few pounds of strategically placed cutter charges.

You mix oranges with apples. It is the TIME frame in which the intrinsic power of a fuel or explosive will be released, which is important for the power of an explosion.

As I said before, if Jet 5 fuel leaked all the way from the impact points, which is only possible for 1 or 2 elevators, why would it explode 2 strong iron elevator doors outwards, without FIRST bleed off through the much earlier bursting dry walls?

Read that beautiful thread at the Loose Change forum, and you know something terrible was planned at 911.

reply to post by esdad71


There was a man in the main freight elevator, one of only 2 elevators that spanned the distance from the impacts to the basements, and he experienced no explosion.

So you are left with two possible explanations. Either express car 6 exclusively channeled a fireball from the impact sites somehow, without blowing the drywall shaft first, all the way down to the lobby and basement level to cause destruction. Or else the explosions originated in the basements.

And there is a lot more evidence in general to suggest they were basement explosions than anything else. Besides there being no reasonable scientific explanation for how a fuel-air explosive could travel so far down a drywall shaft without destroying it, NYPD Lt. William Walsh specifically testified that the lower-level servicing elevator banks were blown out at WTC1 when he arrived, NOT the elevators that serviced upper floors. Also Mike Pecoraro testified to basement areas being destroyed, William Rodriguez is adamant the plane impact and explosions in the basement were completely unrelated, etc.

The people clinging to the fireball myth are living in a fantasy world.

rush969, take your 2 cts back.
Here is the true answer on the misinformation you posted, fed to you by NIST ( the known straight out liars and important information omitting-artists! )
Car 50a did NOT fall to the bottom pit of the shaft and "exploded", it did not explode at all, and the emergency brakes came in and stopped the 50a car at the B1 level, which is NOT the bottom of the shaft!
Mr Arturo Griffith was in that 50a elevator car, together with a woman. Read the next excerpt from that masterpiece of a thread you did not read. You had to go first on a quest to prove me, and the writer of that masterpiece wrong, INSTEAD of first reading it. And that's what's wrong with most skeptics here, they solely want to debate, instead of searching for the true historic facts. All this solid info was already in the first thread-post!
Only three elevator cars; 6a,7a and 50a were going all the way up.
And 6a and 7a were inoperable on 911, and parked at their lowest level, B1 basement level.

Masterpiece thread : z10.invisionfree.com...
EXTERNAL QUOTE BEGIN:
(do you like all italics in an external quote? Makes it badly readable.)

So now we have established that there were three shafts which continuously run from the impact area of WTC 1 (floors 93-98) down to basement levels. According to NIST:

For an elevator’s cables to be cut and result in dropping the car to the bottom of the shaft, the cables would need to have been in the aircraft impact debris path, floors 93 through 98 in WTC 1 or floors 78 through 83 in WTC 2. Inspection of the elevator riser diagram and architectural floor plans for WTC 1 shows that the following elevators met these criteria: cars 81 through 86 ( Bank B ) and 87 through 92 (Bank C), local cars in Zone III; car 50, the freight elevator, and car 6, the Zone III shuttle. …Cars 6 and 50 could have fallen all the way to the pit in the sub-basement level, and car 50 in WTC 1 was reported to have done so.(NIST NCSTAR1-7, p.160 - PDF)

Here the NIST is wrong on two points. First, as we will see later, Car 50 did not fall all the way to the pit in the sub-basement level. NIST repeatedly made this false statement:

Two of the interviewee's associates were injured by flying concrete block on the B2 and/or B4 levels when the 50 Car elevator crashed to the bottom of WTC 1. (NIST NCSTAR1-8, p.80 - PDF)

Second, Car 7 was also in the impact zone and therefore could have fallen all the way down. In theory. In practice, also Car 7 could not have fallen all the way down, like all other elevators. Due to the safety standards, falling elevators would have been stopped by emergency brakes. See this short article from "How stuff works":
Link: What if you were on an elevator and the cable broke.

So keep this in mind whenever NIST or some eyewitness states that elevators crashed down to the pits, that this is a misinterpretation of what really happened. So in fact, it's not that falling elevators were misinterpreted as explosions, but explosions were misinterpreted as falling elevators. Often this misinterpretation is accompanied by the phrase "what I found out later", or something similar, of which we will see some examples in the further examination.

(LT: NOTE regarding elevators 6 and 7, according to NIST they were inoperable on 9/11:

Elevators 6A and 7A were out of service for modernization. (NIST NCSTAR 1-8, p.43)

Before we look closer into the damage in the basement levels let's see what witnesses have to tell about their experience in Car 50, the main freight elevator.
Arturo Griffith, operated WTC1 elevator Car 50:

[The Griffiths] were both operating elevators in the north tower on Sept. 11. Arturo was running 50A, the big freight car going from the six-level basement to the 108th floor. When American Airlines Flight 11 struck at 8:46 a.m., Arturo and a co-worker were heading from the second-level basement to the 49th floor.

Like his wife, who had just closed the doors on a passenger elevator leaving the 78th floor, Arturo heard a sudden whistling sound and the impact. Cables were severed and Arturo's car plunged into free fall.

"The only thing I remember saying was 'Oh, God, Oh, God, I'm going to die,' " he says, recalling how he tried to protect his head as the car plummeted.

The emergency brakes caught after 15 or 16 floors. The imploding elevator door crushed Arturo's right knee and broke the tibia below it. His passenger escaped injury. (USA Today)

Though the door to Mr. Griffith’s elevator was knocked out when the safety brakes caught the free-falling elevator, there was no Fuel-Air-Explosion (FAE) down this elevator shaft. From this testimony we can rule out the shaft of Car 50 as the possible way for the jet-fuel to cause the reported damage in the basement, as the blast pressure had to go right through the elevator used by Griffith and a co-worker. And they certainly wouldn't have survived it when the pressure from the fireball traveling through the shaft of Car 50 would be the same force that - as we will see later - caused walls to cave-in, blew out windows, threw people against walls, blew someone’s tongue out of their mouth. From the USA Today article we could not conclude on which floor the elevator stopped. From a CNN report we can assume that it was in a lower level:

ARTURO GRIFFITH, WTC SURVIVOR: I was running 58 cars -- the elevators that going to 86 to 108th floor.

KING: Where were you when it happened?

A. GRIFFITH: Well, I was on my way from B-2 to 49th floor. And as I took off, it was amount it was a matter of seconds -- five, six, seven seconds, I don't know. And there was a loud explosion and the elevator dropped. And when the elevator dropped there was a lot of debris and cables falling on top of the elevator. And I just -- I just put my hand over my head and I said, oh God I'm going to die. But I didn't know what was happening.

When the elevator finally stopped, they had an explosion that bring the doors inside the elevator, and I think I'm sure that that was what broke my leg. And then they had another explosion and the panel that threw me, you know, against the wall, and I guess I was unconscious for a couple of minutes because somebody else was in the elevator with me, and they say that they was trying to get my attention and they didn't get no response from me. (CNN Transcript)

Note that he reports three explosions. The first (LT: impact explosion annex cable cutting) caused the elevator to fall, the second pushed the doors inside and therefore was originating from outside the elevator shaft. And the third pushed him against a wall. From another article we finally could learn on which exact location the elevator stopped:

Arturo Griffith was in a freight elevator when the building was attacked. The elevator dropped to B1 (the basement level), fell below the landing. He was trapped in the elevator beneath debris and unconscious. He remembers seeing a beam of light. He called out. The smoke was so thick; Arturo could not see his own hand. So his rescuers had to follow his voice to find him.

'I don't know who saved me. It was so black and smoky. I couldn't see nothing',' Arturo said. 'When they got me out, I told them there was someone else down there, a woman. They went back to get her. Seconds after they pulled her out, a ball of fire came down the shaft. They almost got killed.' (Source link)

Note that here it is reported that a fireball came down the shaft after the explosions damaged the elevator and injured Griffith. So this fireball could not be the cause for the explosions and the damage in the basement. This is important as several witnesses describe a fireball coming down and the odor of kerosene. In the official version, these distinguished events are mixed together to deny the possibility of additional explosives.

And regarding elevators 6 and 7, according to NIST they were inoperable on 9/11:

Elevators 6A and 7A were out of service for modernization. (NIST NCSTAR 1-8, p.43)

From this statement we can conclude that the elevator cars were parked in Basement 1, where they had their lowest elevator openings. This is also confirmed by NIST:

"The doors were blown off by the fireball that came down the elevator shaft and the elevators cars were burned. (Basement level of WTC 1)." (NIST NCSTAR 1-8, p.43)

EXTERNAL QUOTE END.


As you know by now, if you are really interested in the truth, you should have read the first post of that masterpiece I have linked you to, see above link and in my first post.
Then all your arguments were rebutted by their true answers.

Best thing to do now is to read that whole 5 page thread, and then come back here with some serious remarks, instead of relying solely on official reports, like NIST and the 911 Commission, and some bad info from debunker sites.

These are all good posts for this discussion but the fact is that the elevator, at the base of the towers, seconds after impact, blew the doors across the lobby and broke glass with such force the women in the first post had her tendon severed in her leg. This is fact.

Thank you for the elevator diagrams but just as you are not posting ALL of the information. That is what Loose Change and the others do. They lead you with the wording that they provide so you can only come to one conclusion.

First, the elevators in both towers are different so you cannot compare the two. Both towers were also struck in different areas..one crossing the sky lobby.

Now,


sites.google.com...




There are also eyewitness accounts of the sound of the falling elevators after the impact. This is where the woman I posted about was....

Seriously now.

Did you not understand my explanations in my last post?

It is clear that Arturo Griffith witnessed THREE explosions before a FOURTH one forced a fireball to come down his shaft, of which TWO, the second and third explosion, were not IN the main freight elevator car shaft, but came from OUTSIDE and the second one blew the sliding doors of his elevator car inwards, into that car and these doors broke his leg first, then the third one caused a panel to knock him unconscious.

The first explosion however, cut his elevator car cables. That could have been the plane impact, and could have been any other event as well.
The second and third explosions are the crucial ones, they happened AFTER the elevator car was stopped by its safety brakes at the B1 level....!

And they came from OUTSIDE ! Thus, within the basement levels, and their explosive force was so big, that it bled off into the Lobby space through stairwells and blown-open elevator shafts doors.
The Thai woman was not burned by a plane-fuel/air mix explosion fireball !

When the elevator finally stopped, they had an explosion that bring the doors inside the elevator, and I think I'm sure that that was what broke my leg. And then they had another explosion and the panel that threw me, you know, against the wall, and I guess I was unconscious for a couple of minutes because somebody else was in the elevator with me, and they say that they was trying to get my attention and they didn't get no response from me. (CNN Transcript)

Then after several seconds to minutes past (edit: passed) by, he was helped out of the stuck elevator car, which hung locked on its BRAKES in the B1 level, and then just after that, a fireball came down that shaft.

This must have happened far later than the injuries from the Thai woman, since he was helped out by FIREMEN who arrived at the scene MUCH later than the plane impact, at least minutes later. And it was dark inside the shaft, so electricity was out.

Do you understand now, that what hit the Thai woman and all the others, was something very different than a standard fuel-air explosion?

And glass from the lobby windows was blown outwards, so that window glass could not have severed her leg's tendon. Since she was at that moment INSIDE the lobby.

A fuel air explosion expanding from inside an elevator shaft would have bled off pressure very fast in that enormous lobby space.

With your words : ""They lead you with the wording that they provide so you can only come to one conclusion. "" , you are misleading the readers. That Arturo Griffith excerpt came from a CNN Transcript.
Not from anyone at Loose Change.

And that excerpt proves that the second and third explosions came not from INSIDE the elevator shafts.
The FOURTH event, the fireball, probably came from inside that shaft. Thus still could be a fourth explosion, and not a fuel air explosion.


Have you ever studied the effects of high tech thermobaric explosions on human skin? That info has been posted by me several times in multiple threads on this forum.
Google: Russian use of thermobaric bombs in Chechnya during their all out war on all local freedom fighters. They have flattened its capital by their use of thermobaric bombs. They are very effective against tall concrete and/or steel structures and their freedom loving inhabitants.
They were specifically developed for that purpose.
Chechen survivors had most of their skin peeled off and the dead had their lungs sucked out by the severe vacuum effects during the prolonged explosion times.
That's why insiders want to classify them as weapons of mass destruction.
And want to have them included within the appropriate international treaties.


In my opinion, crucial columns have been horizontally cut in the earliest stage of the plane impacts, to cut them, but not DISPLACE them.
That means that the separated column pieces were still in place, pressed onto each other by the immense weight of the still standing and not swaying building, but could easily been thrown aside by the final displacement blasts when the chosen moment of global collapse arrived.
Probably chosen when the fires at the Towers top parts were too obviously dying down.
And they were not cut only in the basements, they were also cut at the maintenance floors, where the doors were sealed and closed, so no firemen could check too early and find devastated floors and damaged columns.

[edit on 24/5/10 by LaBTop]

Another important ATS research effort from the past :

The video _BoneZ_ posted just after the opening post at page 1, ends with two "separate" explosions seemingly to be heard.

That's not true.
The first sound you hear, is accompanied by a few distortion lines in the video.
And these are very telling.
Then a few seconds later, you hear the slowed down by distance, real explosion of the impact of a fuel loaded plane at the North Tower's steel wall.

That first sound is the cut connection of the camera's crew direct audio line to the studio via the Tower's top floor antenna, when the North Tower's antenna its sender connections are severed by the plane, slicing through all kinds of cables from and to that antenna.
In fact is that of course the real time when the plane hit, within a few hundreds of a second preciseness.
The second louder explosion sound is the same impact, but delayed through the distance to camera and sound operators on the street.

Sound travels through air at room temperature at about 333 meters per second, so you could calculate how far away that camera was in a straight line from impact to the camera man's separate sound equipment.
If you searched then the online video database (see sticky threads on top of this forum) for that video and broadcaster, and look that one up in NIST's video database which was compared to a few known, atomic clocked videos of the events, then you could find the exact time of the first impact.

Because there seems to be still quite some disagreement online about the exact time of impact at the North Tower, Tower One, the first impact.

Edit: had _BoneZ_ name wrong again. Wouldn't want to upset him.

[edit on 24/5/10 by LaBTop]

There is however an audio recording of an explosion sound, 9:04 seconds before you can hear a second, louder explosion on that tape.
It's the Ginny Carr tape, where she recorded a meeting held some distance away from the towers, unknown yet to me for sure, which distance.

This is the Ginny Carr evidence you can see in _BoneZ_ video, just before the last evidence I hint at above, the camera and sound crew video of the first impact.
It starts at 6:20 in the 7:51 minutes long video _BoneZ_ posted.

If that first explosion sound recorded in that Ginny Carr recording was also somehow connected to the cutting of antenna cables at the North Tower at the real time moment of impact, then we can calculate again the distance to her cellphone, which I presume here that she used as her recording device, in a precise circle around the North Tower point of impact.

Must thus have been in a radius of 9.04 x 333 = 3010.32 meters.
That's THREE kilometer.
I doubt that her cellphone, if that was her recording device, would have been connected in a triangle with the North Towers antenna blocks as one of the cell phone towers in her network access field, at that 3 km distance in a fully equipped Manhattan.
I could be wrong of course, the North Tower's antenna was indeed the highest possible cell phone tower at hand in that area.

www.youtube.com...



Did she record that meeting with her cellphone, or with another recording device like a mini recorder?
And, was she known to be much nearer to the impact, thus in both cases proving my above thoughts to be unrealistic?
And a pre-impact explosion, 9:04 seconds earlier, possible and recorded?

Uhh, that just cost me 3 seconds to find :

Ginny Carr WTC2 Impact Audio Recording - The Doppler Shift Problem

Ginny Carr was at a business meeting in One Liberty Plaza on the Morning of September 11th 2001. The proceedings were recorded with her voice dictation machine and she accidentally recorded the WTC2 impact sound.



The engine noise recorded is not reminiscent of the roaring sound that should have been produced by the 2 bypass engines used on a Boeing 767-200 and reveals no noticeable Doppler shift.

But the drop in pitch of the engine noise should have been even more pronounced than it was in the Ginny Carr WTC1 Impact Audio Recording due to the relatively higher airspeed of the UA175 aircraft and its closer proximity to One Liberty Plaza. This can only imply that the sound source was either stationary, traveling very slow or was approaching One Liberty Plaza from the west of the World Trade Center complex.

If you listen closely to the recording you will notice that the engine noise continues after the impact sound and fades away gently. This effect could have been caused by acoustic reflections off the high rise buildings in Lower Manhattan.

To hear Ginny Carr's recording in full go to www.sonicmemorial.org, enter the archive and search for "Ginny Carr" or alternatively the Ginny Carr WTC2 Impact Audio Recording can be downloaded here :
www.911research.dsl.pipex.com...

Compare the Ginny Carr WTC2 Impact Audio Recording to an audio simulation :
www.911research.dsl.pipex.com...
of the Doppler shift that should have been recorded by the CNN Best Angle Video camera had a Boeing 767-200 flown into WTC2 at around 550mph in the same direction as shown in the video.


Next - DVD Sources Used For Analysis

So she recorded both impacts! And not with her cellphone, and not 3 km away!
Did she record only one additional explosion sound, or two, so before both impacts?

Edit: Do I hear it right? Does it sound as if a person says "That's a draft", and is that first sound in the Ginny Carr audio perhaps a book or heavy report thrown on the table?
First I thought to hear "What is that?", but after listening closer, I am not sure anymore. EndEdit.

[edit on 24/5/10 by LaBTop]

Found when searching for news reports about the Thai woman, referred to in this thread's Opening Post.

A long news reports text post on a BB, where she can be found in an excerpt there in :

www.mjbarkl.com...
WORLD TRADE CENTER LOCKED STAIRWELLS / EVACUATION PROBLEMS,
ACCUMULATING COMMENTS ON ...
(c) 2001, Mike Barkley [last updated 02/06/02]

www.chron.com...
"...Yasana Mutuanot...was in the lobby of Tower One when she heard the first explosion. Thinking it was a bomb like the terrorist attack in 1993, she turned to run, looking over her shoulder as flames leaped from a freight elevator shaft cooking her back and legs and right cheek.

""It was a fireball with sand and heat, like a hurricane of fire," she said.

"The lobby windows shattered as she stumbled out of the building and fell. She could not regain her footing. Her husband, who had not yet entered the building, arrived at her side.

""I kept asking my husband, `Did I lose my foot? Did I lose my foot?' " she said.

"The foot was still attached, but the Achilles' tendon had been severed by debris. She hobbled away with her husband and eventually found an ambulance...."

The link given in that excerpt is outdated, but I found at that sides archives the original article :

www.chron.com...

AMERICA RESPONDS / Many turned into human torches, patients say
T.J. MILLING, RACHEL GRAVES, LISA TEACHEY Staff, Special to the Chronicle
TUE 09/18/2001 Houston Chronicle, Section A, Page 15, 3 STAR Edition

NEW YORK - While the city continued the grisly process of identifying the dead Monday, burn patients in a New York hospital recalled fireballs bursting from elevator shafts at the World Trade Center, setting human torches.

"I saw a lot of people with fire on their back and in their hair," said Yasana Mutuanot from her bed in the burn ward at New York Weill Cornell Medical Center, where she is being treated for burns over half of her body. "It was like a movie of Vietnam, like napalm or something. . . . There was a man who lost his shirt and pants. The skin on his face was all bubbled and on his body, too. You could see the skin peeling off."

Mutuanot was among 25 burn patients at the hospital, probably about half of the severe cases from the disaster and a quarter of the total cases scattered among city hospitals, Weill Cornell Medical College Dean Dr. Antonio M. Gotto estimated. Hospitals had been prepared for a huge influx of patients that never came.

Except for the burn patients and a few trauma cases, such as a woman on a sidewalk struck by one of the plane's landing gear, people either walked away largely unscathed or were incinerated by the exploding jet fuel or crushed to death in the rubble.

Mayor Rudolph Giuliani raised the number of missing to 5,422 and said 211 others were confirmed dead. Of those, 135 had been identified. Thirty-four of those were New York firefighters, one was a New Jersey firefighter, two were emergency medical technicians and two were Port Authority police officers.

Giuliani urged families of the missing to take DNA samples in any form they could find - toothbrushes, hair, unlaundered underwear.

But the mayor also asked families to begin considering the possibility that many of the missing may never be found.

"The simple reality is we're not going to be able to recover significant numbers of people," he said. Dr. Roger Yurt, head of Weill Cornell's burn unit, said three patients had died since the disaster. One, he said, died of shock early on. Two more died of lung damage from smoke inhalation. The rest have burns over 50 to 90 percent of their bodies, and are extremely susceptible to infection.

"Every one of these patients still has a long way to go," Yurt said. "They won't be considered out of the woods until their wounds are healed and that will be three months down the line. . . . It's a lifelong thing. They'll always have scars."

Yurt said those within 10 floors of the jets' impact were probably incinerated. The burn victims were either at the margins of the exploding jet fuel or hit by the blast of flame that careened down elevator shafts. Yurt recalled one man's story of being trapped in an elevator as flames swept in, burning half his body before he escaped to walk down 70 floors.

Mutuanot was in the lobby of Tower One when she heard the first explosion. Thinking it was a bomb like the terrorist attack in 1993, she turned to run, looking over her shoulder as flames leaped from a freight elevator shaft cooking her back and legs and right cheek.

"It was a fireball with sand and heat, like a hurricane of fire," she said.

The lobby windows shattered as she stumbled out of the building and fell. She could not regain her footing. Her husband, who had not yet entered the building, arrived at her side.

"I kept asking my husband, `Did I lose my foot? Did I lose my foot?' " she said.

The foot was still attached, but the Achilles' tendon had been severed by debris. She hobbled away with her husband and eventually found an ambulance.

Mutuanot and the man from the elevator were the only patients in the burn unit who were well enough to tell their stories, Yurt said. Most of the others had tubes between their vocal cords and were hooked to ventilators.

The above is another newspaper report of the Thai woman, somewhat more extensive and just a bit different from the Opening Post link.

I repeat, when she started to run, after the first explosion she heard and felt, she was not hit by a JET 5 fuel-air fireball, but by something else, likely the terrible effect of thermobaric explosions.
She was in the lobby of Tower One, the one with the antenna on the roof, the North Tower.

The link I provided a few times now, describes everything what happened in the North Tower.
See my Arturo Griffith excerpts, this Thai woman probably got hit by the second explosion mentioned by Arturo. The one which happened after his elevator car was stopped after 10 to 15 floors downward falling, by its emergency brakes at the B1 level, which is btw not the lowest level reachable by that car.
Realize here, that Arturo Griffith in his freight elevator car did only got up 10 to 15 floors before the cables were severed somewhere higher up.
If they were cut by the plane, or by another explosion, we can never find out.
Let's suppose the cables were cut by plane debris.

I advice you to look again at the video _BoneZ_ posted, and I reposted it above on this page.
You see Chief Pfeifer enter through the (revolving?) doors, and turn to the left in the lobby. The long wall with the intact big shiny marble tiles on it, was the back side of the elevator banks.
Mrs Mutuanot logically stood somewhere in one of the two lower floors elevator banks hallways, when she heard that explosion and ran away.
You can see Chief Pfeifer pass the left one of those 2 hallways on his way to the Firefighter desk in the corner, to the left of the entrance he came in.

I don't think she was allowed to, or ever used the freight elevators 48, 49 and 50.
Elevators 48 and 49 had their own small hallway, and 50 opened to the hallway in the center of the elevator banks.

We also know from the extensive eyewitness report from Arturo Griffith, that only much later than the first explosion, a fireball spit out of that freight elevator's shaft at the B1 level, which could have come from anywhere.
We talk about MINUTES later here !

As we have seen, a few posters think that this text should explain it all, and triumphantly offer us the link from "Truster" Mark Roberts attempt to offer and defend the official 911 stories at sites.google.com :

""Inside the North Tower: Witness Accounts, Plaza Level & Concourse Lobbies, Basements.""

But Mark Roberts left out some very important sentences, and offers not all known news reports about certain 911 eyewitnesses, only the ones he thought were relevant for his trusting side of the fence.
And after understanding that multiple explosions have taken place shortly after the planes hit, even Roberts pages offer a lot of extra circumstantial eyewitness evidence for those extra explosions just after the impacts.

This is what Roberts offered and which missed that important sentence:

Ronnie Clifford and Jennianne Maffeo
At around 8.45am, Ronnie walked into the lobby of the Marriott, which was connected to the lobby of the north tower by a revolving door. As he was checking his yellow tie in a mirror, he felt a massive explosion, followed several seconds later by a reverberation, a warping effect that he describes as the "harmonic tolerance of a building that's shaking like a tuning fork". He peered through the revolving door into the lobby of the north tower. It was filling with haze. People were scurrying to escape what had become a "hurricane of flying debris".
(MISSING)
Then the revolving door turned with a suctioning sound followed by a hot burst of wind, and in came a mannequin of the future. A woman, naked, dazed, her arms outstretched. She was so badly burned that Ronnie had no idea what race she was or how old she might be. She clawed the air with fingernails turned porcelain-white. The zipper of what had once been a sweater had melted into her chest, as if it were the zipper to her own body. Her hair had been singed to a crisp steel wool. With her, in the gust of the door, came a pungent odour, the smell of kerosene or paraffin, Ronnie thought. (more)
www.unison.ie...

The link Roberts offered years ago is dead, but I managed to find the original story, but without those original extra sentences.
Now it was redacted and relocated :
""He thought he was the lucky one, but then tragedy struck"" :
www.independent.ie...

This is another excerpt from that news piece, where it seems that after the second plane struck, the Marriot Hotel floor buckled up, another indication that a second explosion occurred again after the second plane struck the South Tower :

Ronnie Clifford was still whispering the Lord's Prayer in Jennieann Maffeo's ear when the second plane hit. The whole edifice rumbled and groaned and swayed, then the floor beneath him buckled hideously and seemed to raise him off his feet. Pieces of the building began falling around him. Ronnie knew then that they absolutely must get out.

When you read the relocated full Irish newspaper story, you will find out a few unbelievable sad coincidences happened that day of 911 to Ronnie Clifford from Cork, Ireland.
His sister and her daughter were in the plane that hit the South Tower, when he was praying with Jennianne Maffeo in the Marriot Hotel lobby, at the foot of the South Tower.
And her best friend had been in the first plane that hit.

Among the ticketed passengers on American Airlines flight 11, the first plane, the one that hit the north tower, had been Paige Farley-Hackel, his sister Ruth's best friend and a close friend of his.

A little later in the afternoon he was able to verify an even more devastating fact: Ruth and her four-year-old daughter, Juliana, had been on the second plane, the United Airlines flight from Boston.

So it could be, those posters did read at least the first page of the link to that masterpiece at Loose Change forum, but stopped reading after finding in there, Roberts his Truster link.

That's why a repost of that link is obvious, to show the context where this Truster link was placed in :
z10.invisionfree.com...

Finally, maybe the most important account regarding the lobby is this:

Ronnie Clifford and Jennianne Maffeo
At around 8.45am, Ronnie walked into the lobby of the Marriott, which was connected to the lobby of the north tower by a revolving door. As he was checking his yellow tie in a mirror, he felt a massive explosion, followed several seconds later by a reverberation, a warping effect that he describes as the "harmonic tolerance of a building that's shaking like a tuning fork". He peered through the revolving door into the lobby of the north tower. It was filling with haze. People were scurrying to escape what had become a "hurricane of flying debris".

(LT: this bolded part is now MISSING!)
Yet Ronnie remained untouched. It was as though the revolving door were a glass portal to another realm, a world of chaos and soot just inches away. The Marriott lobby was calm, the marble surfaces polished and antiseptic. For a few seconds, the two adjacent worlds did not meet.

Then the revolving door turned with a suctioning sound followed by a hot burst of wind, and in came a mannequin of the future. A woman, naked, dazed, her arms outstretched. She was so badly burned that Ronnie had no idea what race she was or how old she might be. She clawed the air with fingernails turned porcelain-white. The zipper of what had once been a sweater had melted into her chest, as if it were the zipper to her own body. Her hair had been singed to a crisp steel wool. With her, in the gust of the door, came a pungent odor, the smell of kerosene or paraffin, Ronnie thought. (Source)

The revolving door is just across the south side of elevators 6 and 7. If they were the origin of the blast, then why didn't he see a fireball emerging from there, then why is the glass still intact? But the glass on the west front is broken. And the marble panels on the west-wall of the core removed.

This proves that the shafts of 6 and 7 weren't the origin of the damage in the lobby. We have already ruled out elevator 50 for the basement damage. So what's left? A good question. Another good question: Why did Mark Roberts, who published a paper in an attempt to debunk skeptics of the official version, cut out the bolded part of the statement? Of all lobby-accounts the most incriminating part for the official version.

What is he hiding from us? And why is he hiding from us? And why has never footage been released showing the south side of the lobby, which certainly exists, or should we believe that despite all the footage of the lobby, nobody made even one picture of the zone, which according to the official version, should have been the most damaged one?

I asked myself if there were better, realistic diagrams of the North Tower Lobby area, where we can have a better understanding of the placement of shafts and elevators, and their hallways leading to them, and also the Marriot Hotel revolving doors position in that diagram, and the entrance position where we see Chief Pfeifer enter in the Naudet brothers video posted by _BoneZ_.

Not the sloppy diagram I found in my last post. I see no North or South directions, and no clear entrances depicted in there.
Any help is appreciated to find a good North Tower Lobby diagram, better than that one above I found.

Why all the fuss about this masterpiece by NK-44, you may ask yourself?

Well, for starters, does anybody realize themselves that fire was already reported in floor 22 of the North Tower, where the original Security Control Center (SCC) was located, within ONE MINUTE after impact?

Please hold your breath: the NIST reports that the damage to floor 22 was from falling debris!

"On Sept. 11, falling debris knocked out the 22nd-floor security center's equipment just after the plane hit, says Mr. Reiss, who is still with the Port Authority and was helping with the transition to new management that took over the complex in July. The guards, who had to be rescued themselves, couldn't have buzzed anyone through to the roof. Even after the building's electricity was cut off, internal batteries in the electromagnetic locks would have kept the doors closed for several hours, Mr. Reiss says. (Source)

Never imagined that falling debris from the impact point could possibly have arced back to the building to hit floor 22 in such a manner that the WHOLE floor was devastated as reported by the first firemen to get into that floor.
And that all elevator shafts were cut away totally, a fireman could look down the shafts and only saw bungling cables (so, not severed!).
Other firemen reported floor 21 and floor 23 to be in PRISTINE condition, no soot, no damage, just deserted, no more.
And the only shafts (6. 7 and 50) which went up all the way to the impact point did not have an entry to the 22nd floor!
That was no damage by a jet fuel fireball, nor falling debris.

It was obviously an explosion to cut away all access to electronically shut off doors in the whole building, and all remote camera files which could have recorded to remote servers!

This command center controlled the Closed Circuit TV (CCTV) of the WTC complex, the HVAC (Heating, Ventilation and Air Conditioning)system and the access to the roof and the Mechanical Equipment Rooms (MER). Simultaneously with the basement explosions the SCC was disabled due to an explosion, causing more stress and handicaps to the emergency efforts.

Firefighter Michael Yarembinsky:

When we got to 22, we heard there was a Port Authority command post on 22. So we were stopped there. My officer wanted to find out some information, my officer Lieutenant Andy Desperito. He went over to the command post. We noticed in the hallway that the elevator shaft had been blown out. There was nothing there, no doors, no framing, nothing. When you looked down, all you saw was the cables for the elevator and the brick work that was surrounding.
Q. Was it burning?
A. No burning, no smoke coming out of it. (Source - PDF)

There was a new backup center in the B1 level of the South Tower, the second one hit by a plane.
It's called the Operations Control Center (OCC).
According to Willie Rodriguez, the janitor, he found that OCC EMPTY and LOCKED when he arrived there.

And from William Rodriguez we know, that the OCC wasn't even manned when he was there, before the second plane hit:

QUOTE

I find water all over, run straight to the south tower where they have the OCC (operation control center) that was created after 1993. They spent $155 million to retrofit the building, and to supposedly straighten it out after the 1993 bombing, and to set up a whole security system, the control center. When I got there and started hitting the window there was nobody there. There was nobody there—the control center, where they have all the cameras, and the recordings. (Source)

See NK-44 his/her post called : "The 22nd floor" halfway on the first page from his masterpiece.

Originally posted by LaBTop

I repeat, when she started to run, after the first explosion she heard and felt, she was not hit by a JET 5 fuel-air fireball, but by something else, likely the terrible effect of thermobaric explosions.

First, let me say "kudos" for you for all the info. you have provided and your research.

Second, a question.- What are you aiming at with "thermobaric explosions"??
Can you elaborate on this??

Third.- Do we know for certain that none of the elevators fell down completely without the emergency braking??
Cause we are talking many elevators here. So maybe one or two did fall down to basement levels or the lobby crashing down there. (And causing what some people have confussed with explosions.)

reply to post by rush969


Forum Search for :
""LaBTop"" "thermobaric"

You'll find numerous of my posts where you can find nearly all of the publicly known information on thermobaric explosives. Which is damn little.
However, we know now that thermobaric cutter charges can cut thick steel columns like butter, if we may believe the sources.
The effect on humans of these type of explosives is devastating, in the Chechen war with Russia we have reports of people totally burned with their skin peeled off and their lungs sucked out.

They were developed especially for urban warfare, and will turn concrete to fine dust.
They have a very low sound profile, not like standard High Explosives.
One of the side effects of them is that only minimal traces will be possibly found by forensic experts of its use, when covertly used, since basically it's an enormously powerful gaseous explosion, with a very small HE explosive starter charge which reacts on the lowering gas pressure inside the expanding explosive gases cloud.

Do not confuse them with Fuel/Air explosions, these are not at all comparable concerning devastating power.

All of the witness reports do contain small indications of thermobarics used, for example the firefighter who reports seeing a dead man with cut off legs, while he specifically searched on the ceiling for soot rests and other proof of a "normal" explosion. He did not see them, the ceiling of that part of the Lobby of the North Tower was totally clean, but the man's legs were clean cut off.
Also notice the many fully burned victims found throughout the whole Tower, already in the very first stages after the plane impact.
A jet fuel/air explosion does not do that.

A thermobaric however will first expand its potential explosive gaseous cloud, before it is triggered to explode by its small explosive thermobaric charge. The cloud will follow building spaces, around corners and along corridors, thus covering much more ground than any localized simple fuel/air explosion. Corners will reflect its explosive power two or three times stronger, that's why it's so effective in a building like the Towers with their four corners.

They will have used them in the locked down mechanical floors (floor 22 was inoperable by an explosion at impact) which had by design much stronger floors. And could be prepared quite easily in advance without curious outsider interference.

The 22nd floor with all its electronically controlled security systems was a main target for this type of weapon. There all the electronic locks were controlled, so an explosion there would counter most aid from outside.
Much more you can find by my Search advice.

Third.- Do we know for certain that none of the elevators fell down completely without the emergency braking??
Cause we are talking many elevators here. So maybe one or two did fall down to basement levels or the lobby crashing down there. (And causing what some people have confused with explosions.)

I posted links to many reports of crashing down elevators, and some were found crumbled at the bottom of their shafts.
But the three elevators (6, 7 and 50)which covered all the way from impact to Lobby and Basements, were not the source of the Lobby and basements explosions. Car 6 and 7 were parked at their lowest levels in the basements, and car 50 we have the report from its inhabitants that they suffered three or four explosions before and while halted on the B1 level by the emergency brakes.
And much later a fireball came down that shaft, the fourth "explosion".

I hope you all understand that a crashing down elevator does not crash exactly at the lobby, they crash down in the shaft's end, a few meters lower than the doors to the Lobby.

And a crumbling elevator does not explode while also burning, no, even worse, charring totally, heaps of humans at the Lobby levels.
An air filled elevator car does not "explode", that's a ludicrous expression to use for such an event. And jet fuel could not have leaked inside those Lobby ending elevators, they ended FAR lower than the impact points.

And jet fuel could not have leaked into them, the tops of all the shafts leading to the impact zones and coming down to the Sky Lobbies which were 42 floors above the Lobby, were one meter higher than the floor levels and were capped off. And also capped off at the last Sky Lobby levels.
And the elevator banks which ended at the Lobby did not go higher than those first Sky Lobby levels.

Re-read the NK-44 posted thread for all the tiny details :
z10.invisionfree.com...

[edit on 7/6/10 by LaBTop]

if recall the testimony of three people. (all say basement then tower)
a sub basement boom
10 seconds later you heard the plane hit.

loading dock guy
hernadez
hernadez boss