Burn victim verifies elevator explodes during 'impact' to North Tower not during collapse

Originally posted by _BoneZ_
That is a 50-ton hydraulic drill press. I'm pretty sure I said brake press:

Mike Pecoraro does not state that it was a drill press or a brake press. If we are speculating, they said they were heading up to a "small machine shop" when they encountered the destruction of the room. A 50 ton brake press in my opinion would not be something you would typically find in a "small machine shop." Again guys, I am only speculating.

reply to post by Six Sigma


You must've missed the video I posted earlier in this thread here where witnesses heard and felt the explosion in the lower levels BEFORE the first plane struck. Therefore, there was no jet fuel yet to explode. Furthermore, first responders reported continued explosions in the lower levels well beyond the plane impact.

So, magical jet fuel will explode in the basement levels before the plane even hits, then it will continue to explode in the same areas well after impact? You gotta reach a little further for those straws.

reply to post by Six Sigma


Yet a drill press is such a small and insignificant machine, why even mention it? A brake press, on the other hand, is not so insignificant and would definitely be worth mentioning.

I'm in the process of contacting Mr. Pecoraro for my documentary anyway, so we'll soon get the full answer.

reply to post by _BoneZ_

- A 50-ton hydraulic brake press "disappeared" along with the rest of the basement-level machine shop.

50 tone press does not mean it WEIGHED 50 tones. That is how much force it can generate

On my fire truck have JAWS (actually Holmatro) tools - it can generate 30,000 lbs of force to remove car doors

It weighs about 45 lbs

*Snip*

[edit on 3/19/2010 by semperfortis]

reply to post by esdad71


So you're saying there's not 2 explosions toward the end? I've gotten a chance to hear several explosions of all sizes from serving in the military. The first explosion sounded a lot sharper, like something man made, the second one sounded like an impact.

reply to post by thedman


No, Bonez did say the brake press itself weighed about 1.5t, so he did not "deceive"

Originally posted by _BoneZ_
You must've missed the video I posted earlier in this thread where witnesses heard and felt the explosion in the lower levels BEFORE the first plane struck.

Good evening Mr. Bonez,

No, I didn't miss the video. Thank you for pointing it out again to those that may have missed it. Some folks did hear explosions . Some did not.

Let's keep in mind, millions of us were all watching when the second tower was struck. There were not any reports of explosions in the 2nd tower just prior to impact. There were camera crews everywhere. None that I am aware of picked up anything. They did, however experience similar damage in the South Tower lobby.

In the post I presented from Mr. Ryan Mackey, there was an important point raised. IF there were bombs in the basements as a few believe,the injuries sustained did not represent those of a bomb blast. They are for the most part burn victims. There were not any reports of anyone being killed by the blast.

If I may make another point, please. There are some common misconceptions regarding the abrupt removal of the bomb sniffing dogs. This of course was the additional dogs that were there. There were full time bomb sniffing dogs that worked in the towers. This was a constant since 1993. Sirius was in the South Tower working when the first plane hit.

Th first plane therefore, there was no jet fuel yet to explode. Furthermore, first responders reported continued explosions in the lower levels well beyond the plane impact.

So, Mr. Bonez, do you agree that there is a high probability that a deflagration of jet fuel did exist?

Originally posted by _BoneZ_
Yet a drill press is such a small and insignificant machine, why even mention it?

It's not that small and insignificant. It is rather large, but not 1.5 tons. Again...we are all just speculating.

I'm in the process of contacting Mr. Pecoraro for my documentary anyway, so we'll soon get the full answer.

Please ask him how strong the smell of kerosene was in the basement. (he mentions this in the interview)

Originally posted by Six Sigma
No, I didn't miss the video. Thank you for pointing it out again to those that may have missed it.

I didn't point it out for others that may have missed it. I pointed out to you because you keep talking about jet fuel, deflagration, etc, but the first explosion happened seconds before the first plane impact on the north tower. The video has numerous witnesses stating as much.

Therefore, jet fuel doesn't even play a part in the first explosion as the plane hadn't even impacted yet.

Originally posted by Six Sigma
They did, however experience similar damage in the South Tower lobby.

Do you have any sources for this claim? I would be interested to learn about the damage to the south tower lobby.

Originally posted by Six Sigma
There were not any reports of anyone being killed by the blast.

The explosives likely would've been in the cores of the buildings, thus not directly near anyone to kill them. But people did actually die and/or were severely injured from the explosions when walls and other debris struck them.

Originally posted by Six Sigma
There are some common misconceptions regarding the abrupt removal of the bomb sniffing dogs.

I don't see this as relevant, but suffice it to say that I agree with you on this point.

Originally posted by Six Sigma
So, Mr. Bonez, do you agree that there is a high probability that a deflagration of jet fuel did exist?

Not only do I not believe this, since the first explosion happened before the first plane impacted, I believe that there is a high improbability that a deflagration of jet fuel existed or occurred.

Originally posted by _BoneZ_
I pointed out to you because you keep talking about jet fuel, deflagration, etc, but the first explosion happened seconds before the first plane impact on the north tower. The video has numerous witnesses stating as much.

I was trying to maintain a civil conversation.

While I am researching events, personally I look at all the witnesses with the physical evidence.

Therefore, jet fuel doesn't even play a part in the first explosion as the plane hadn't even impacted yet.

We can disagree on what the first explosion was. (i believe it was a plane crashing)

Do you have any sources for this claim? I would be interested to learn about the damage to the south tower lobby.

Plunge just the start of nightmare

The elevator descended normally for the first seconds of a ride to the ground floor that should have lasted 60 seconds. Then United Airlines Flight 175 crashed into the south tower, tearing through the elevator machine room on the 81st floor. That cut most cables to the express elevators. Elevator No. 13 began a free fall from 900 feet above ground.....

.....As the plunging car neared the ground, the emergency brake grabbed onto the thinnest of nine elevator cables — the only one remaining — and the elevator jerked to a stop....

"Alan, I'm hurt," Giordano sobbed.

"Donna, don't worry, we're going to get out of this thing," Mann said.

Then, somebody yelled, "Oh my God, fire!" Burning jet fuel shot flames into the car, burning Mann's neck. He gasped for breath..."

Mann and a different woman survived. The rest of the people in that elevator died.....

www.usatoday.com...

As I turned around to go back toward the core of the building in the lobby, the second plane hit, and that shook the building.

We heard the explosion and within a matter of seconds after that impact, I heard – and as well as everybody else heard – this noise, this increasing sound of wind. And it was getting louder and louder. It was like a bomb, not quite the sound of a bomb coming down from a bomber. It was a sound of wind increasing, a whistling sound, increasing in sound.

...What we heard was 6 and 7 car free-falling from the 107th floor and they impacted the basement at B-2 Level. And that’s the explosion that filled the lobby within a matter of two or three seconds, engulfed the lobby in dust, smoke.

And apparently from what I talked to with other mechanics, they saw the doors, the hatch doors blow off in the lobby level of 6 and 7 car.

from an interview with ACE Elevator mechanic Robert Jones
archive.recordonline.com...

Tilly's story

This is when the explosion came.

It progressed down the building, breaking the windows as it went; the entire building was groaning, an unnatural, unearthly sound, much like a can squeezing, or cracking uncooked spaghetti. By the time it reached the lobby, the marble veneer was cracking and falling off the walls; the chandeliers shattered on the floors along with the plaster ceiling, and the force imploded in at about 50 mph, pulling metal, balled safety glass, and other material with it. The pipes were bursting over my head and dense materials were flying around me as if they were being pureed in a blender. In the next instant came a horrible noise and a flash of extreme heat and light blown directly over my head.I concluded later in the day that this was from the huge airplane fireball sent down the 78-110 elevator shaft that exploded out into the lobby, and blew around the walls and curled into the center vestibule where I was taking cover...
As the debris and dust settled, water started to rain down, and black smoke began to roll through with the strong smell of jet fuel in what was left of a once beautiful lobby.

www.rightnation.us...

Originally posted by _BoneZ_
The explosives likely would've been in the cores of the buildings, thus not directly near anyone to kill them. But people did actually die and/or were severely injured from the explosions when walls and other debris struck them.

Can you please source this, Bonez. The vast majority of injuries that I have read about in the Lobby and basement were burns.

"Arturo Griffith was in a freight elevator when the building was attacked. The elevator dropped to B1 (the basement level), fell below the landing. He was trapped in the elevator beneath debris and unconscious. He remembers seeing a beam of light. He called out. The smoke was so thick; Arturo could not see his own hand. So his rescuers had to follow his voice to find him. 'I don't know who saved me. It was so black and smoky. I couldn't see nothin',' Arturo said. 'When they got me out, I told them there was someone else down there, a woman. They went back to get her. Seconds after they pulled her out, a ball of fire came down the shaft. They almost got killed.' "

web.archive.org...://911digitalarchive.org/seiu/details/54

Willie Rogriguez actually gave this report to NIST:

"The fire, the ball of fire, for example, I was in the basement when the first plane hit the building. And at that moment, I thought it was an electrical generator that blew up at that moment. A person comes running into the office saying 'explosion, explosion, explosion.' When I look at this guy; has all his skin pulled off of his body. Hanging from the top of his fingertips like it was a glove. And I said, what happened? He said the elevators. What happened was the ball of fire went down with such a force down the elevator shaft on the 58th (50A) – freight elevator, the biggest freight elevator that we have in the North Tower, it went out with such a force that it broke the cables. It went down, I think seven flights. The person survived because he was pulled from the B3 level. But this person, being in front of the doors waiting for the elevator, practically got his skin vaporized."

wtc.nist.gov...

On September 11, 2002, Rodriguez was interviewed by CNN:

“And at that terrible day when I took people out of the office, one of them totally burned because he was standing in front of the freight elevator and the ball of fire came down the duct of the elevator itself, I put him on the ambulance.”

transcripts.cnn.com...

I don't see this as relevant, but suffice it to say that I agree with you on this point.

Just pointing out that bomb sniffing dogs were present. One died on 911.

Not only do I not believe this, since the first explosion happened before the first plane impacted, I believe that there is a high improbability that a deflagration of jet fuel existed or occurred.

Not looking at the time line as you see it, do you think there was ever any fire below the impact points caused by deflagration of the jet fuel?

Originally posted by thedman
reply to post by _BoneZ_

 

- A 50-ton hydraulic brake press "disappeared" along with the rest of the basement-level machine shop.

50 tone press does not mean it WEIGHED 50 tones. That is how much force it can generate

On my fire truck have JAWS (actually Holmatro) tools - it can generate 30,000 lbs of force to remove car doors

It weighs about 45 lbs

*Snip*

[edit on 3/19/2010 by semperfortis]

It always helps to read what we reply to.

Originally posted by Bonez
It doesn't weigh 50 tons if that's what you're asking. It's weight, though, is about 1.5 tons (almost 3000 pounds). They are rather large and heavy machines.

reply to post by _BoneZ_


South Tower accounts:
sites.google.com...

As for the "explosions" in the core, that was the result of the fireballs that traveled down the shafts. In nearly all accounts we have the fireballs racing down the elevator, and the elevators themselves contributing a lot of damage as well when they impacted the ground floors.

Explosives do not create massive fuel-fed fireballs. Demolition charges explode with such violence, such power, that they blow things apart including people nearby. They do not burn people. If RDX or C4 goes off right next to you, you are not getting burned, you are being torn to bits and your insides get turned to jelly. We dont have any reports of people being blown to pieces anywhere near the core. There were plenty of places for people to be near or even next to the core columns themselves, and no one mentioned the core columns exploding out either in the bathrooms, stairwells, elevators and elevator banks, with the columns being severed and possibly thrown out by the force of the blasts. There were no such reports on any of the floors. Only the reports of massive fuel-fireballs traveling down the shafts burning and killing people who were standing right in front of the doors, or in the elevators themseleves. And hearing these accounts, they do not sound like any demolition charges, or high power explosives, or anything like that. There were reports of the bathrooms being blown in by the fireballs from the shafts. Dont forget, the elevator shafts were surrounded by drywall and I believe sheetrock. No exactly top grade material to withstand an impact and large fireball. Remember, high power explosives produce BLAST damage, and their fireballs are much much smaller and not as far reaching as the blast damage. The larger the fireball, the large the blast radius. And the larger the blast radius, the larger the explosives. But that would mean the bombs would have had to been much much much much larger than the 93 WTC bomb, in order to produce such large fireballs going through the elevator shafts. Ergo, it could not have been bombs in the basement. There is just no way.

Also there was no "explosion" before the impact. That is flagrently false information, or misinformation. The account you posted is either misinformed, or lying. Some people didnt know a plane hit. Some mistaked the impact for an "explosion" and the actual fireball and plane exploding as the plane impact. Would you be able to tell the difference between them if you were on the 25th floor? You'd hear a whump, lights flicker, building sways, then you hear a large explosion and fireballs and elevators rush past you. What would you assume when you heard about the plane impact? Just use some logic and how some people react or describe something they never felt or experienced before. How would they describe something, or in their mind, comprehend what is happening, when they never had soemthing like that happen before?

Say you are in the basement, how can you tell what happened 90+ floors above you? How could Willie know what happened? All he heard was the whump and then later the explosions of the fireballs coming down.

Edward McCabe felt something, and it sure wasnt any bombs:

4th Sub-basement: blast 30 seconds after impact.
Edward McCabe: I was in the refrigeration plant in tower 1 sub basement 4. I was passing through when I felt a slight shifting of the building. I froze right where I stood and listened....nothing.. about 30 seconds past (sic) and to my left about 30 feet from me was a stairway leading up to a door. this door explodes off its hinges and white smoke came into the plant. I later on found out the reason there was an explosion was the jet fuel filled the elevator shaft and seconds later a spark triggered an explosion.

Also many good accounts here about the impacts:
sites.google.com...

Also if you are interested, you can read about the known loss of structural integrity and the growing instability of the towers:
sites.google.com...

[edit on 3/20/2010 by GenRadek]

Originally posted by Six Sigma
Yet enough of that went down the elevator shafts to start fires in the lobby of that building.

Please show your source for the fires in the lobby.

www.aerospaceweb.org...
Sheets of flame also raced through the maze of hallways and stairwells inside the building, reaching at least as far down as the 75th floor.

Also the fact is that high octane aviation fuel burns hotter then jet fuel but no melting damage was done to the steel by the fires.

Originally posted by GenRadek
Also there was no "explosion" before the impact. That is flagrently false information, or misinformation. The account you posted is either misinformed, or lying.

It is truly sad when you have to call survivors and witnesses liars to keep from having to believe in a conspiracy. I can't respond to the rest of your post because you dismiss witness testimony based on what you think happened or should have happened.

I think the important thing here is the orignal story and post of the woman in the lobby. She "IS" telling the truth and her story has been confirmed by firefighters. So the question then is how did that explosion happen and with enough force to do all of that lobby damage. Nothing else matters on this thread. This is the point.

Originally posted by REMISNE

Originally posted by Six Sigma
Yet enough of that went down the elevator shafts to start fires in the lobby of that building.

Please show your source for the fires in the lobby.

You're going to be waiting awhile. The Naudet Bros. have alot of video footage of the lobby and there isn't any evidence of scorch marks or fires anywhere. Just blast damage. The firefighters even comment that it looked like the plane hit the lobby.

Originally posted by _BoneZ_
You're going to be waiting awhile. .

Sorry, we were talking about the Empire State building.

Originally posted by _BoneZ_

Originally posted by GenRadek
Also there was no "explosion" before the impact. That is flagrently false information, or misinformation. The account you posted is either misinformed, or lying.

It is truly sad when you have to call survivors and witnesses liars to keep from having to believe in a conspiracy. I can't respond to the rest of your post because you dismiss witness testimony based on what you think happened or should have happened.

When referring to the liars, I would direct that at Willie himself, who has been proven to be "indulging" in his account and each time it got more and more crazier.

As to the people in the video, Bonez, you are getting a little irrational thinking that they are describing a bomb BEFORE the impact. And that video, is cleverly edited to make it appear as if there explosions before the impact, when in reality, they are describing the actual impact, because it WAS an explosion.

And please, your incredulity under the guise of :

I can't respond to the rest of your post because you dismiss witness testimony based on what you think happened or should have happened.

is quite the load of malarky since you are PURPOSLY ignoring the true facts as to what caused the damage at the first floor and basements, and using a pathetic excuse to ignore it all. Look, if you want to believe in PURPOSLY edited videos that twist and skew the accounts to make it APPEAR as if something sinister happened, be my guest. But dont get upset when someone points out the flaws and tries to correct those erroneous and twisted accounts with facts, and then IGNORE it. You just lost some credibility there Bonez. And I really thought you were interested in learning the truth. But no, you'd rather learn and believe in the basterdized version of the "truth" which has been pushed by the so called "truth movement".

Edit to add:
I posted what DID happen. Three whole links FULL of accurate accounts, inclduing accounts from the basements. YOU are purposly ignoring it. Dont give me that fake sense of disbelief or outrage because of what I said about the eyewitnesses either lying or being misinformed so you can ignore the facts I posted right there in front of you.

[edit on 3/20/2010 by GenRadek]

Originally posted by REMISNE

Originally posted by _BoneZ_
You're going to be waiting awhile. .

Sorry, we were talking about the Empire State building.

Opps!

Well, I did look into the ESB accident a while back and an engine did end up going down the elevator shaft. So, where ever that shaft ended, the engine could have started fires on that floor if the engine remained on fire. Or pieces of fiery debris could have went down the shaft causing small fires below. But I'm not actually aware of reports of fires in the lobby of the ESB.