Why would a god allow so much pain and suffering?

Originally posted by Gwynniver

We are not yet in Hell. The wicked have not yet been punished for their sins, and the righteous do not have to suffer the second death or Hell.

This quote annoys the hell out of me, no pun intended there.
So because you believe all this you are a righteous, and because I think it is a fairy tale, I'm wicked? Such arrogance.

And little do they know that there is no hell. Lake of Fire...yes. Hell....no.

And the difference would be?

reply to post by Gwynniver


One is thought of as being an enternity. The Lake of Fire is finite.

I find it hard to believe that any loving god would afflict eternal pain and suffering to finite beings. This is another one of those things that make me wonder about free will. On the one hand there is free will, but on the other hand god already knows everything. How do those two add up? And I guess that also means that god knows who goes to hell and who doesn't. And if that is really the case, then why bother about evangalising? You can't save who is not in the big book already, right?

Originally posted by Gwynniver
I find it hard to believe that any loving god would afflict eternal pain and suffering to finite beings. This is another one of those things that make me wonder about free will. On the one hand there is free will, but on the other hand god already knows everything. How do those two add up? And I guess that also means that god knows who goes to hell and who doesn't. And if that is really the case, then why bother about evangalising? You can't save who is not in the big book already, right?

Or how 'bout this which is completely Biblical. God says that HE WILL SAVE ALL. Therefore, whatever God WILLS will come to pass. The hell people think the Bible says, really is not what they think. There is no word in the Bible that translates to a hell that lasts for eternity. Hades is not an equivalent. I can go into Ghenna fire if you want, but for the puposes of a response here, no there is not a literal hell.

As far as free will...a complete and utter myth. You and I can't, positively can't do ANYTHING of our own FREE will. You and I make choices, thousands of them, and every one of these choices was CAUSED. And anything that is CAUSED can not be FREE. Who CAUSED these things to happen....well, you know who.

Again, we are human beings and do not know the WILL of God. We see good and bad, evil and light, but it is God who sees everything all at once and who knows exactly how this will end because HE PLANNED IT FROM THE BEGINING.

You can't escape from making a choice...freely.

And God is NOT a closed trinity. Another myth of Christendom. God is an EXPANDING FAMILY.

This does not mean we should cause chaos, although you could choose to, but you would not be choosing freely since all the events of your life would come into play to cause you to make a choice in one direction or another.

Originally posted by Maddogkull
Before I get flamed, this is skunk works and this is where this post belongs.

Now like I said, why would a god allow this to happen to us? Perhaps we are this "god" and know what we are getting into before we come here. Maybe we are warned before we come to this earth, and not really know what were getting ourselves into? Why so much pain and suffering in Africa and other countries? Is there a god? Why would he cause so much suffering?


Time for some answers guys

There are only 3 possible explanations:

1. God doesn't exist

2. God is a being of a higher evolutionary order than humans, but God is very immature and may or may not understand empathy. While he may have attributes that humans do not, his intelligence is inferior.

3. God is actually "Satan." "Satan" is actually the good guy and God made him out to be bad in order to gain most of the control. This actually makes some sense going by the things God does and preaches throughout the bible. Won't go into details here but there is a lot of contradictions that could point to Satan as being wrongfully demonized to mislead people.

The fourth explanation, which is a completely different subject (and is the basis of many beliefs, especially new age), is that God is nothing like what we normally perceive him to be. Humans have a tendency to put a persona on things that do not have personality. God is not a being, but something else... I have no logical explanation at this moment.

The only logical way to approach this is to forget God. Trying to justify or explain God is futile. You know the difference between right and wrong. Live your life as you see fit. If a God exists, he should judge you based on your life, not on whether or not you worshiped him. If a God will judge me based on whether or not I worshiped him, then send me to hell because I want nothing to do with such a pathetic being.

Originally posted by SirPsychoSexy
There are only 3 possible explanations:

1. God doesn't exist

Don't buy this. Can't prove nor disprove.

2. God is a being of a higher evolutionary order than humans, but God is very immature and may or may not understand empathy. While he may have attributes that humans do not, his intelligence is inferior.

Higher on an evolutionary scale but, yet, somehow still immature and not cognizant of empathy? Simply wrong on so many levels.

3. God is actually "Satan." "Satan" is actually the good guy and God made him out to be bad in order to gain most of the control. This actually makes some sense going by the things God does and preaches throughout the bible. Won't go into details here but there is a lot of contradictions that could point to Satan as being wrongfully demonized to mislead people.

Or God created Satan for His purpose.

The fourth explanation, which is a completely different subject (and is the basis of many beliefs, especially new age), is that God is nothing like what we normally perceive him to be. Humans have a tendency to put a persona on things that do not have personality. God is not a being, but something else... I have no logical explanation at this moment.

Close...try spirit.

The only logical way to approach this is to forget God. Trying to justify or explain God is futile. You know the difference between right and wrong. Live your life as you see fit. If a God exists, he should judge you based on your life, not on whether or not you worshiped him. If a God will judge me based on whether or not I worshiped him, then send me to hell because I want nothing to do with such a pathetic being.

Wow, I wish I could convince everyone that there is no hell. There are only two commandments from the New Testament that we are instructed to follow:

1. The Lord our God is one Lord; and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.

2. You shall love your neighbor as yourself.

Pain is mandatory
Suffering is optional

Seek and you will find. God loves when ya give up so he can say
"Now watch this"

99% of the bible is about surrender.
1% is where you receive 100% of the gift which is Life in abundance.

[edit on 19-3-2010 by superluminal11]

reply to post by SirPsychoSexy


Your post makes a lot of sense, but there are a lot more variables then just 3 answers. In the realm of infinity (meaning the realm of the unknown), there could be infinite reasons why a god made us the way he did. BTW thank you everyone for this lengthy discussion. I have seen atheists’ beliefs, Christian, and agnostic beliefs. Keep up the good work ATS

reply to post by Gwynniver


Everything of Spirit will return to Spirit through cycles.

Everything of Earth will return to Earth, through cycles.

We all continue our paths of learning until we make the choice of living for the life of Spirit. All will be saved as the other poster said.

Poo, people - stop blaming God for what WE have brought about on our planet. He gave us free will - and we screwed it up.

Need examples?


Adultery: We look at people strange if they admit they are still a virgin. How many/few of us can say that we were a virgin before they married?

Murder: Killing people for a cell phone, a sandwich, a pair of tennis shoes.....etc.

Homosexuality: Changing the laws/Bible to try to make society accept it as something normal and deserved.

Stealing: How many of us steal things at work - including time from our bosses.

Lying: How dare anyone try to hold us accountable for not being honest?

Violating His Sabbath: Sabbath? What's that???

Not Honoring Our Parents: Parental murders, parental assault, how many of us have parents in nursing homes that we neglect to visit or care for?

Abortions: What's the tally now - 50 million innocent babies killed? Women are using abortions as birth control. I.e. In the clinic by 2 pm, out in time to hit the Happy Hour at the club.

Drugs/Alcohol: How many of us are smoking weed, snorting coc aine, shooting up, drinking like a fish and putting ourselves, and others, at risk of injury and/or death? We don't condone kids using drugs, yet WE still buy/sell/use - which is just one spoke in the drug wheel - so WE are contributing to the drug use of kids in society.

We don't like a rule or law in the Bible, no problem - just write a book, call it a "bible", publish it and wah lah ...... now we can have that baby laying on our coffee tables ready to show people that we don't have to abide by the one true God's rules and laws.

911? - our country is neck deep in corruption, has been for a long time. But instead of trying to imply that God is "causing" the pain and suffering, why not look at it that He is now "allowing" it to happen.

Satan is abound on the planet, make no mistake - he was there in the planning of 911, he is there for each and every abortion that is "performed", he's been there with every congress member, and president, that have made poor choices to engage in pre-marital sex, lying, bribes, or any other number of scandals of the month - just pick one and insert it here.

Could God intervene? Sure He can - and He has, for a long, long, long time. But there comes a time when we, as a people, have corrupted our planet for so long that He has, I feel, removed His hand of protection from us. Things on our planet have finally gotten to the point that God is about to intervene - and it isn't going to be pretty, I can assure you.

So please, take your arm, reach around your shoulder, and pat, pat, pat. Because the blame for the shape of our world sits squarely on OUR shoulder.

Consider:

We create our own reality. Not in the new age kind of way that tries to marry quantum theory and religion (dubbed "quantum spirituality"). I mean this in a very real, possible way.

In my faith there is a concept called "The Universal Law Of Consequence." What it bassically is, is that nothing happens without cause, and each action gives rise to further action. It is a scientific principle when though of as "every action has an equal and opposite reaction", except the reaction isn't always (apparently) opposite.

When our Creator made our reality, He set as its primary law the Universal Law Of Consequence. This one law allows events to happen in a logical manner, and allows order to eek out an existence in the chaos.

The structure that this order will take on is dependant on the actions that occur within it, as well as outside influences (nothing is really a closed system).

God does not intervene. It is against His law. That law cannot be violated in our reality. His intervention itself would be the cause that gave rise to whatever change happened.

This is apparently an important concept to Him. I would expect that He would not violate His own rules, right? I believe any story that has God intervening would be suspect, based on this...but i digress.

Our reality, our suffering, is of our own making. We can also end it. But we do not follow the Universal Law Of Consequence, and thus do not succeed. Of course, knowing what will happen when there are so many critical points that could alter the course of your plans is the challenge. But, regardless, there are large parts of our suffering that are easilyf ixed, if we just had the intestinal fortitude to make it happen, as a culture.

reply to post by bigfatfurrytexan


With all due respect, your views/faith/"Law" are exactly what I'm talking about -

I have never heard of The Universal Law Of Consequence - and again, with all due respect, I have no desire to learn about it.

There is God. God created each of us, and the universe, and no telling what else that is out there that we, as vain humans, are not even aware of. And yes, I have a very closed mind, one that I will die with.

Humans need to quit trying to rewrite our history, and our very existence. It's already been written, as well as our future.

If people don't like the "rules", they are free to continue violating them, and rewriting them. It won't change the outcome, but perhaps it makes the person feel better.



p.s. I like your avatar cartoon.

Ok, here is a shotgun approach at replying to the recent posts...

Many current translations of the Bible mistakenly translate both HADES and GEHENNA as being the word HELL. This is a mistake. Hades is where the unrighteous go at death, being held until the judgment when Hades and all those in it will be thrown into the Lake of Fire, aka Gehenna, where they will be destroyed. I fall on the side of this being a complete destruction, not eternal burning and suffering. The result has eternal consequences, and the fire itself might be eternal but the pain is finite in that it completely destroys body and soul.

God is not an ever-expanding entity. As you said, the Lord God is One.

Not everyone goes to Heaven. It is God's will that all should be saved, but people refuse Him and part of their free will is to choose destruction over His salvation. Jesus spoke of people going to Hell numerous times.

[edit on 19-3-2010 by Mykahel]

reply to post by Mykahel


I have to respectfully disagree - there are no mistakes in the Bible. No matter how many people want there to be, there are none.

Not everyone may understand the Bible, and if you've read the Bible, you will read where it explains why it was written in the way it was. God knew there would be people that would only crack it open for the sole purpose to "try" and find a mistake, or a contradiction - He was, and is, aware of this, trust me.

But again, don't blame God, or the Bible, because *you* don't understand what's written in it - God planned it that way because of non believers and scoffers.
I can't say this any better than to just say it straight up - the Bible is not your ordinary literary book of words. By that, I mean that God wrote it to be understood ONLY by the ones of us that were/are truly, and sincerely, seeking Him, and His instructions for us.

And again, I have to ask - why does everyone want to blame God for anything and everything bad in the world. It just amazes me at how humans can get so puffed up with vanity and pride.

reply to post by nomorecruelty


It is pretty ignorant to say that the bible is never wrong. It was written by man. Is has changed throughout history. Maybe the original texts were valid, but today’s bible as we seen it, has been changed numerous amount of times. 2000 years is a long time for different topics of the bible to change.

Originally posted by Maddogkull
reply to post by nomorecruelty

 

It is pretty ignorant to say that the bible is never wrong. It was written by man. Is has changed throughout history. Maybe the original texts were valid, but today’s bible as we seen it, has been changed numerous amount of times. 2000 years is a long time for different topics of the bible to change.

So color me 'ignorant' if you want to - your choice.


I stand behind my statement.

free will!

otherwise we would be one with nature and not talking on the net, destoying the planet, killing each other and suffering.

we would know what not we do.

there would or would not be a place for bi-ped animals in the circle of life.

"why would a god.." really would not be a question.

Lol, I agree with you the bible is a magnificent thing, it has a lot of life lessons that can teach humanity, that being said, we cannot put 100% faith in a book that is written by man. If we were alive in the times of Jesus, this conversation would be 100% different. But since we live 2000 years after death, we have to remain skeptical because of the amount of changes the bible has undergone. Eternal might be a misconception for Eon, hell might be a misconception for the garbage pits were they crucified and burned people in Jerusalem. We really have to understand that in 2000 years a lot can be changed.

I agree totally that mankind screws most things up - but the King James Bible is the only true Book we have - and I'm taking it as the Gospel.

God would not have NOT let us have access to half of the truth, nor a fictional version of His Scriptures.

He created us, and the world, so I would have to assume He would ensure that the correct text was distributed out in the world.



Mankind is who is at the wheel of the "rumor mill" - but in reality, it's satan that is causing these guys to doubt - and I doubt they even know that they are being used by him.

We are in the end days, that is pretty much a given - satan knows he only has a short time to create as much doubt as he can within us - in order to steer as many of us away from God as he can - before he is cast into the lake of fire eternally.

All of the ones on here saying there isn't a hell - just more proof that mankind only wants the good things out of life - but doesn't want to do what is required to get those good things. But in his/her feeble attempt, will totally reject something or someone (God and/or hell) if it doesn't suit *them*.

God WILL save everyone - but the kicker is, each person must accept Him as their Lord and Savior - i.e. we can't keep sinning (against HIS laws) and just expect Him to say "Ok, you did your best - you didn't want to give up sleeping with your boy/girl friend, you couldn't stop cheating on your taxes, you just had to keep working on my Sabbath...... BUT, just to show ya what a great guy I am, I'm gonna let ya slide - C'mon In, my friend - welcome to Heaven".

It doesn't work that way - it's God's house, He gets to make the rules. We can follow those rules, or we can choose not to. That choice is entirely up to us.
But He isn't going to change one iota - regardless of how much mankind and this planet changes - He hasn't changed, and won't.

Again - we all have to make that choice. And as the days go by, it will come to a point where each person will have to choose who they are going to follow - God or satan.

What about Buddha, and The Law of this or that, or Mother Earth, or any other "god" people are clinging to right now?

All of those are false "gods" that mankind created - just as mankind is behind all of the craziness going on right now on this planet.

You can bottom line it to say what we are now seeing is God's wrath upon His children - for sin, and for rejecting Him. And while things are certainly dire looking, we ain't seen nothing yet. What He reveals in Daniel and Revelation is scarier than any H'wood movie I've ever seen.



[edit on 19-3-2010 by nomorecruelty]