Why would a god allow so much pain and suffering?

Pain is the only way people are capable of truely learning anything of any real value. If you try to go through life thinking that 2+2=5, you will experience the pain of frustration when the things in your life do not work out as planned or... calculated, and you will be forced to learn to adapt and realize 2+2=4. Unless you suffer from some form of mental incompetence (ei. insanity or developmental disabilities). This is true with all the other things you learn. You know how everyone says, "People have to learn things the hard way" meaning that someone can tell you something and try to share some of their knowledge with you, but you are never really going to know whether they are correct until you have experienced what they have experienced. Our brains learn best by experience. It takes a great act of faith to learn something without experiencing it. And actually, until you experience something, you have not really learned it. What happens when you "learn" from someone (ie. a teacher or parent or peer) is you are putting your faith in what that person told you. Kind of a "place holder" to take the place of the real thing. Like a person with a hobby collecting something, like insects or rare coins, they might have a picture of a coin in the place of one they haven`t collected yet. And if/when you do actually experience and truely learn something then this new peice of info will replace the "picture of an experience" you had before. T [hese "acts of faith" are preferable to the "pain of frustration" we would experience by not having any type of "placeholder" for the things which we could not experience ourselves. Yes, life would be very dim as far as well... pretty much everything if we didn`t have these "acts of faith". I would have to become a molecular engineer just to know water is h2o. Which I guess would be fine. There would be no written history. In fact, writing at all would be very limited. Money nonexistant. And actually if there are really such thing as "molecular engineers" (I kinda made that up lol), I have a hard time believing they would exist in a world w/o faith. Would a language or alphabet even exist?


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reply to post by Maddogkull


my guess, is that if their is a god, he is really just a complet f'ing C with nothing better to do than cause misery to people, and i bet he plays warcraft!

The opportunity of learning self control is there...but some cant grasp the control part or the idea of moderation.

Agreed. What I dont agree with is attributing this or anything else including suffering to God or any diety. Its an excuse card.
We are responsible for our own actions (humanity as a whole).
We allow suffering either directly or indirectly through apathy or inaction or silence.

As I said earlier in this thread (i think), religion is a construct of man, so is the bible, and So is God as we variously perceive it.
Children stop passing the buck to 'mr nobody' very early on, yet adults persist, why?

reply to post by v01i0


But you fail to understand the pretext of which these things happened because Sodom and Gomorrah were completely wicked cities. God had given his servant Abraham to find 50 good men in the city - and if he could find them, the Lord would spare the city. Abraham negotiated God down to if he could find 10 good men, God would spare them. There weren't even TEN good men in that city and it was so wicked God destroyed it. God gave them a chance but they chose sin over him, so justice was served.

With the flood, basically a similar scenario in that the entire world at the time was a completely wicked people whom were pagans that worshipped false gods, but because Noah and his family were of pure heart the Lord saved them. Noah was even rediculed for what he was doing over the 130 years of him building the ark, but when the flood came, the Lord's justice was served again.

In the terms of how God killed, you are failing to understand the pretexts of the situation and rather are just looking at "Oh well, he killed them and killing is a sin so he is a sinner!!".

Imagine if you had a child that a man came, brutally raped and killed your child in front of you. You gave him a chance saying "Just if you honestly repent and turn from your ways I will let you go and forgive you", but he kept to his old ways and spat in your face, would it be wicked for him to be put away or to let him go?

[edit on 15-3-2010 by SlapBassist531]

The "big guy" is a Lizard who has been in charge around here for over 200 thousand years.

The God you blame can't help you because you choose to worship the Lizard. It isn't your fault, yet you choose to serve the Lizard God.

Any human that kills others(physically or by decree) in the name of religion, serves the Lizard god. Any human that kills period, works for the Lizards. Even the subtle, negative things humans do to each other, is serving the Gods of Earth, Lizards.

The Roman Church is the biggest nest of Lizard worshipers on the planet, right next to the Muslims.

reply to post by Maddogkull


When I see this type of argument I always wonder why God allowed puppies to exist. Not be callous but the whole argument presupposes that pain and difficulty are in themselves evil. Without pain or personal challenge I doubt we'd would live rewarding lives which is why God in my opinion allows them to exist.

I am not a walking Bible but I've heard the phrase "refined with fire" in relation to a person being tested and challenged with difficulty. From personal experience I know that the highest points in my life have been when I've overcome great difficulties so I can relate to the saying.

I think we tend to over-emotionalize certain 'events' leading us to come to ask the question "how could a loving God allow that to happen" and by that I mean that when we ask that question we overvalue this life and what we can see.

In that regard I suppose I have a Matrix view of the world, what happens in this life and how you react to it determines your fate at the next level.

"Do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell."

Originally posted by v01i0
reply to post by SlapBassist531

 

So, killing people isn't a sin? I mean, your god drowned pretty many people on the great flood and by raining fire and brimstone upon Sodoma and Gomorrah.

This is not a good argument, I can understand it from your point of view though. The commandments were for the tribe of Israel, commandments to live by because the tribe wouldn't prosper if the people were murdering one another without consequence or sacrificing one another as the nations that surrounded Israel at the time were doing. God also commanded the same group of people to completely wipe out several of the neighboring nations (men, women, children, and animals). Thus the commandment was not against the taking of a life in general as many would warp it to be.

An interesting thought is that the people prior to the flood were corrupted and not completely human, and that the people that Joshua was told to wipe out were also corrupted. Look up 'Nephilim', 'Rephaim' and Tom Horn in general has a could explanation of the idea in 'As It Was In The Days of Noah The Return of the Nephilim'.

I look at it this way - if the purpose of the life is to find God in preparation of a deferred judgement, then if God takes a life it is just an immediate judgement corresponding to the plan. If you take life of your own accord then you are interfering with the plan.

Originally posted by litmuspaper
reply to post by dashar

 

Yes, suffering helps us learn, but I also think it could help us appreciate the next stage of being.

If we go to a happier place, perhaps we wouldn’t be able to appreciate it without the suffering we experience in this lifetime.

Thats what i think.how can we know bliss or heaven if we havent suffered.

Ok here is the MOST logical answer you will get on this thread and probably in your whole life! I didnt learn this from any religion, i was told this by someone in this Universe. I dont care if you believe me or not, just read it and then decide.

First of all this in not any religion, or from any religion.

OK so we got free will. (we do what we want without GOD telling us what to do, that would be no point of creating souls)

A better question for "why do GOD allow diseases and natural..." is
Why do some born rich with good health and why do other born poor with disease?

Because you already had millions of 'lifes' before! The way you behave (not just behaviour this is much much more complicated in which i wont get in to, its long) that tells what other life you going to get in to your next life after you die.

This dosnt mean there is no hell!!! Hell is a good place to punish those that had sins, but that dosnt mean its for ever it can be 100 years or even more but not for ever, you will ALWAYS get a new chance to change. So what if you change and make GOD very very happy in this life? Then you will go to a higher life (we call them aliens, not from this planet) probably with many powers to use to make GOD happy not yourself!

So what about heaven? That is a very very hard place to get to. And that shouldnt be your priority. It should be GOD happiness.

Ive got a lot lot more to write but have no time.

Hope this explains many questions

reply to post by SlapBassist531

But you fail to understand the pretext of which these things happened because Sodom and Gomorrah were completely wicked cities. God had given his servant Abraham to find 50 good men in the city - and if he could find them, the Lord would spare the city. Abraham negotiated God down to if he could find 10 good men, God would spare them. There weren't even TEN good men in that city and it was so wicked God destroyed it. God gave them a chance but they chose sin over him, so justice was served.

What a load of religious nonsense bunkum ,

Oh that Lot was such a nice guy what did he do when the gay parade wanted him to send out the two so called angels ?

Well he does what any good father would do he offers up his two virgin daughters to be buggered in their place !!!!

But if that wasn't enough for this "righteous man that god saves" he later has sex with "both" his own daughters and gets them both pregnant !

Nothing has changed then in all these years "the lord" and still his sheeple are still homophobic with a tendency to make allowances for pedophiles or even encourage them.

reply to post by StarBoyFG


Why take parts of the Christian religion and drop other parts? From the Biblical point of view man is appointed once to die and then to judgement. I guess my real question would be -- how does it work with an ever expanding population? Are souls split and then reconstituted in to two or more people?

reply to post by StarBoyFG

OK so we got free will. (we do what we want without GOD telling us what to do, that would be no point of creating souls)

That would preclude the omniscience/omnipotence of your god

We were warned before we came here, Adam and Eve were told "don't eat the fruits of that particular tree" or you will suffer. That tree, i believe represents the material dimension which we have fallen into from a higher dimension(Heaven). We are fallen angels.

Well i believe in God but not in any religion.

Just find a different view on God than you have now.
I bet you see Him as an old grandpa with a beard sitting on a cloud, looking down on us. (you see Him this way cause the church draw him this way)

see Him as it fits the most reasonable way to you ( If you wanna believe there is something more than meets the eye).
If you don't wanna believe in Him than don't. Just try to live your life as good as you can.

reply to post by ararisq

Why take parts of the Christian religion and drop other parts?

It's called cherry picking, xtians do this a hell of a lot so that they don't have to think, especially in relation to inconsistencies.errors, contradictions and absurdities of their delusional beliefs.

reply to post by ararisq

I can understand it from your point of view though. The commandments were for the tribe of Israel, commandments to live by because the tribe wouldn't prosper

Therefore these commandments written by a "man" ceased to apply when ?

Originally posted by yodagod
reply to post by SlapBassist531

 

Oh that Lot was such a nice guy what did he do when the gay parade wanted him to send out the two so called angels?

Well he does what any good father would do he offers up his two virgin daughters to be buggered in their place !!!!

But if that wasn't enough for this "righteous man that god saves" he later has sex with "both" his own daughters and gets them both pregnant !

To be righteous does not mean to be perfect which should give you an indication of the lawless wickedness of the rest. Lot was said to have acted as a judge over the people which separated him from their wickedness; and often that is enough -- to stand apart from the crowd and not follow them blindly.

If you put yourself in that situation you could understand that there was no right answer - either Lot gives up his daughters to satisfy the crowd or he puts himself, his family, and the entire crowd in the path of destruction. I would assume though, that had he understood God at the time that he could have saved everyone. Remember nothing of God is really understood until much later with Abraham's grandson Jacob.

reply to post by ararisq

I think we tend to over-emotionalize certain 'events' leading us to come to ask the question "how could a loving God allow that to happen" and by that I mean that when we ask that question we overvalue this life and what we can see

I take it that you've never watched your firstborn die a slow painful merciless malingering death. Perhaps if I wished that upon you, you may decide to reconsider how life is "overvalued" as you so eloquently put it.

Originally posted by yodagod
reply to post by ararisq

 

Therefore these commandments written by a "man" ceased to apply when ?

They didn't cease to apply and continue to be a necessity for any civilization or group of people to survive and thrive which was the point in the first place. My point is that people too often try to take those verses and apply it to a humanist view of the world which is incorrect.

reply to post by yodagod


That happened to my mother yoda, and she still had a belief in some kind of afterlife. We don’t know what goes on, on the other side of the veil. We might never know until we die. Why would you wish that upon someone also? That is just awful.

[edit on 15-3-2010 by Maddogkull]