##ATTENTION ALL 9/11 POSTERS- FORUM REJUVENATION##

awesome job ATS! I really dont participate in that forum, but have skimmed over threads and hopefully this will bring us a step further in our investigating and conversations.

Excellent. I hope this change makes a different. (Thou I agree with some members that this kind of strict approach should/could be used some other sections in here as well.) I've ceased to read countless threads lately because of the childish behavior of some users.

My sincere thanks to moderators for taking some real actions here.

"Ignore seems to be the opposite of ''deny ignorance'' so it doesn't sit too well with my little sensibilities."

I think this depends on WHO you choose to ignore. I would argue that when it comes to narrow minded individuals, ignore is the ultimate form of denying ignorance, as in, denying their ignorant existence.

"No new truths have come out of this board in a long time."

True, this assessment may apply to you and others, but does it apply to an individual who is being exposed to this information for the first time? I think we have to look at the big picture here.

"I'm sort of sick of the "disinfo" label."

Obviously, when someone has to resort to using any type of label, they lack the intellectual capacity to properly and maturely discuss and debate an issue. Labels should only be used on inanimate objects, not human beings, regardless if the shoe fits.

"I believe I have alot to lend to ATS, but I have not felt the desire to post my serious educated beliefs...due to the hostility as of lately."

It's just a fact of life that you will almost always encounter hostility when posting opinions which are unpopular and shunned by the masses. By refusing to post, you are being submissive to the questionable motives of those who are propagating the hostilities, or in other words, those who have something to hide.

reply to post by intrepid


Ok, All Bickering Aside,

WHAT REALLY NEEDS TO HAPPEN IS THIS!!!::

This is MY opinion as it is probably others too--Many posts get tedious to read through, especially if there is MUCH BICKERING!

I propose that a "relational database" of known facts and theories be added to AID in RESEARCH!

Such a relational database that is WORTH LOOKING INTO, is the ThinkMap software:

www.thinkmap.com...

This would FACILITATE non-linear research and discussion. It would also be much more efficient since nothing would have to be "re-hashed" and fought over. Everything about ATS has been "linear" in posting which is what I have perceived, highly inefficient. Important things get lost in the "mix" so to speak and don't get the coverage they deserve.

Any other thoughts and opinions would be welcome.

Question for a MOD:

I have in the past often stated that in my opinion, anyone who still believes the official story to be either intellectually deficient or having an agenda...that no one with a rational ability to discern facts could believe the official story...would that be considered an insult?

I would tell my grandma that in front of God or anyone else, but some official story believer might take it as an insult instead of as an opinion...see the issue?

Are we to be so hestitant that we must stop and and all references that MIGHT take offense? or is it just openly insulting statements that are directed to a specific person? this is a sincere question...thanks!!

Originally posted by Carlthulhu

Originally posted by Anonymous Coward

Originally posted by dereks

I think they're serious about this guys, you better pay attention if you want to keep your posting privileges here on ATS.

Good move ATS!

reply to post by richierich


If you take it upon yourself to TELL anyone they are mentally deficient, or have an agenda, because they do not believe as you do, YES, you are heading down a short road here.

There are MANY people that believe the OS, many brilliant and educated people with NO agenda.

There are MANY people that do not, equally as brilliant and equally without agenda.

It is NOT your place to label people and in my opinion, labeling people is no different than calling them names.

I hope this helps

Semper

reply to post by richierich

I have in the past often stated that in my opinion, anyone who still believes the official story to be either intellectually deficient or having an agenda...that no one with a rational ability to discern facts could believe the official story...would that be considered an insult?

Not to put it too bluntly, but yes. ...and it would be actionable as such. So don't do it.

I happen to find the official story to be rather lacking in places, myself... But not one, not one, of the other theories has answered my questions either... Yet I find, when I bother with this forum, that I don't feel like being insulted by people who decide that I need some sort of label...this is going to stop. If a label casting expedition is what someone comes here to do, they're going to run into a cold welcome, and a short stay.

We can agree to disagree with civility. ATS is full of contentious topics that are handled with a high degree of civility...this one can as well.

[edit on 3/14/2010 by seagull]

reply to post by semperfortis


Now that is something I was hoping to hear!!! Seems like most the time in the 9/11 forum people are just making threads so that they can bomb on people who disagree with them, never actually listening to the information. It's telling how in these threads at least the first three pages are nothing but one side bombing on the other, even if the thread was posted, supposedly, as a question to the other side.

[edit on 14-3-2010 by Watcher-In-The-Shadows]

Originally posted by jam321
reply to post by OnceReturned

 

Once all of the evidence has been presented, and all of its logical implications have been considered, and still two competing theories remain, there is little to be done without more evidence.

Unless some of the evidence has been overlooked. How many times have you heard of LEO's waiting for new evidence and then one of them find a piece of evidence that was overlooked. IMO, a civil forum has more of a chance of producing overlooked evidence rather than one that turns into bickering about who is the biggest liar.

I'm all for the introduction of new or previously unaddressed information; I think that the forum should proceed by only allowing these things.

But, how many times have you heard of previously overlooked evidence being identified here? Any how many times have we been over the same exact issues?

Making the forum civil is of course a good idea, and perhaps increases the chances of identifying overlooked evidence. But, when we look at what is actually happening, we find virtually none of this. The probem isn't civility, the problem is lack of new data. Everything we have has been completely played out.

Identifying evidence which had been previously overlooked would constitute the introduction of new data. I think that since new information is the only way to have a meaningful conversation on this topic that is not an exact conceptual replica of hundreds before it, we ought to stick to that; new information.

Of course the main problem is what you said

Each side knows exactly what the other one has to say, and they remain unconvinced.

This is basically saying that people are firm in their stance and are unwilling to change their stance no matter what evidence is provided. But, don't the other forums come down to the same thing?

I don't so, no. The Alien/UFO, Scitech, Space exploration, psychology phil. and metaphysics, general conspiracy, alt. news, and many other boards are constantly the source of novel discussions. New information is presented all the time, and new interpretations of existing information abound. Other areas of discussion like religion and politics are subjective, no one is objectively right and a consensus among all is not intended. Of course there is some degree of repetition in those forums, but not nearly to the extent that we find here.

People are firm in their stances, but that doesn't mean we should give up. And I'm not suggesting that we give up. Presumably enough of us are interested in the truth to make the debate worth having. My point is that we've had it. New information is the only thing that could generate any novel discussions. It is also the only thing that could confirm either side's beliefs. In objective matters we seek conclusive, factual answers. We cannot progress towards this end any more with what we have.

I guess my question to the mods who are reading this thread is, wth is the point of allowing the same old stuff to be recycled ad nauseum? Why would you not want to restrict the discussion to new information and its implications? Can you honestly say that there is any value at all in having conceptually identicle discussions over and over again? How could the majority of the discussion here possibly not be considered trivial, repetitive, and without value? Isn't there some point at which we can say "enough is enough, we've heard that exact idea before, we get it, we're done talking about the exact same things in the exact same ways."

It's not like there will be some dramatic new validity to be found in these conversations because you have made everyone play nice. I don't mean to be standoffish, but it's frustrating that this idea isn't being met with much enthusiasm. If you only held this board to same standards of non-repeatability that you hold the other boards to, the entire problem would be solved. We would be having vigorous, enthusiastic debates about novel information and novel interpretations of the evidence. We wouldn't be having these conversations nearly as often as what we have now, but that's the whole point. When people have nothing valuable left to say, the conversation turns to drivel. That's what has happened here. There is a reason that it is so much more a of a problem here than other boards.

When people have nothing new to say, they will just repeat themselves louder and louder and with more name calling. The solution - which ought to be self evident upon careful consideration - is to only let them talk about new information, or talk about familiar information in brand new ways.

I challenge anyone who has the power to impose this restriction and chooses not to, to explain why you don't believe that this would dramatically improve the quality of the board in a way that would be equitable to both sides of the debate.

Originally posted by seagull
reply to post by jam321

 

This is basically saying that people are firm in their stance and are unwilling to change their stance no matter what evidence is provided. But, don't the other forums come down to the same thing?

In all likelihood that's a correct assumption. However, hope does spring eternal...and a civil, as you correctly said, conversation will go along way towards giving that hope a chance to spring...

It's a not a correct assumption. I know that based on the reality of what's going on in the other boards. See my previous post.

Is there some point at which we can admit that the same discussion - civil or not - has taken us as far as it ever will? The relevant concepts are identical no matter how much name calling they are polluted with, and we know what they are. People are at the point where the only way that they feel that they can compel anyone with those same concepts is to state them with such ferocious vigor and hostility that you will have to believe them.

People are frustrated, because without new information they are helpless to advance the debate. Frustration is the reason that they lose their sense of decency.

reply to post by neformore


Ok then how are you going to deal with the trolling type posts that bait?

The reason I say that is that the 9/11 Conspiracies forum is just that, a forum where people post about what they believe the conspiracy actually is. My observation is that at least 90% of the posters don't believe the entire story the government has told us is 100% truthful. And from there it goes to different degree's of deceptions.
I never go into the UFO forums saying I don't believe in them and make perpetual posts that amount to trolling that forum.
To what end? It would be an exercise in absolute futility.
And that is why I question the motives of the baiting that is on the fringes of trolling the forum. Why does it mostly happen in the 9/11 forums?

I have seen some long time posters baited by trolls into a ban, this is a very emotional subject. Sure they should have known better, but frustrations get the better of some people at times. I remember one poster was a first responder and he was being baited, by somebody that wasn't even there that day, it is only natural for that person to get upset and express himself.

Or should we be censoring a first responder to protect the T & S?

For the record I should state up to this point I have have been happy with the moderation of the 9/11 forum.
It's a really hard job to do, I know that.
I just don't want to see some of our long time senior contributors getting banned, because of some skillful baiting trolls that take advantage of these new strict enforcements.

Some may be confused by this. This rejuvenation is so that the entire membership and readers/new members can add to the forum. And yes BJ, some of the older members are part of the problem. The end solution is not banning. Well, yeah, it is in some cases but if any members that has trolled in the past can clean up their act on their own? Beauty, we retain a member. If not.....

reply to post by intrepid


Intrepid
I have observed your moderation since signing up, and it has always been fair, I am not worried about what you do in this area. You have proven common sense.

Deny Ignorance.

Nothing any more simple than that, "Official Story" believers or "Truther Movement".

Stop leaning to the "Official Story"...

Stop leaning to the "Truther Movement"...

Stop hacking at each other...

Stop being divided by point of view, perspective and partisan politics...

STOP, being a PART of the PROBLEM, and become PART of the SOLUTION.

I support neither side of the 9/11 "Story" aisle, I support America, as a whole.

Deny Ignorance.

Use investigative techniques, not criticizing techniques, use collaborative efforts, not divisible efforts, use your combined brain power, not your combined destructive power, and overcome those who would oppose people know the truth about an event that has divided our nation into people who feud upon beliefs of others, and instead see the puppet masters who will use any event, to make us fear.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/30e47717d3af.jpg[/atsimg]

Remember the day, remember the victims, and never forget that terror is bad.

No matter your thoughts on who did what, what was covered up, who lied about evidence.

September 11th, should be a uniting event, and awakening if you will.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/4bab1daa41a0.gif[/atsimg]

Otherwise the above silly cartoon is just you and no one will take you seriously.

[edit on 14-3-2010 by SpartanKingLeonidas]

It's simple really...

When you feel your "D-ego" kicking in, www.abovetopsecret.com... (READ the link), just take a step back, remember that calling your fellow member a "Disinfo agent", "Govt. Shill", "Twofer", "Lunatic Brainless CTer" or any other childish name, will get you banned and decide if it's really worth it.

I would also suggest that when you have to resort to childish name calling, snide, snarky remarks, or anything pertaining to the member rather than the topic/issues/facts, you have just LOST the debate and, to put it bluntly, look like a fool or a phony.

Springer...

Originally posted by Springer
It's simple really...

When you feel your "D-ego" kicking in, www.abovetopsecret.com... (READ the link), just take a step back, remember that calling your fellow member a "Disinfo agent", "Govt. Shill", "Twofer", "Lunatic Brainless CTer" or any other childish name, will get you banned and decide if it's really worth it.

I would also suggest that when you have to resort to childish name calling, snide, snarky remarks, or anything pertaining to the member rather than the topic/issues/facts, you have just LOST the debate and, to put it bluntly, look like a fool or a phony.

Springer...

I have to say that I love the simplicity in that post. I also applaud many of the statements made by the mods in this thread. I personally have no problem with these sanctions. I try to keep my posts civil, and tend to avoid posting in threads that I know will get my blood pressure up. I have seen a great deal of those examples of bad form, and thus, avoided posting in the thread in question. I have often wondered what constituted a violation. I have done my share of ALERT-ing, but there have been quite a few times when I was unsure if something was 'worthy' of the ALERT function. I wholeheartedly agree with the last line of your post, as it mirrors my own opinions on the matter. Bravo mods.

Chrono

Well, its about time that the moderators planted their fists on the table and exclaimed that enough mud has been slung to completely bury the whole point of the 9/11 forums. I applaud the staff for making the choice to switch policies, and I truly hope that you will take this same type of action with all other forums.

In fact, it should be written in the rules that if you're here to simply say "I'm right, and you're wrong", then said individual should be banned.

The reasoning behind this is simple; this site is about debate, and if you're here to pop in and state your beliefs without offering anything constructive to the discussion, then you shouldnt be here. Quite frankly, I doubt anyone would care what a person believes if they bury their heads in the sand and post that kind of off-topic BS. Its all a step in the right direction, I suppose.

On the bright side, I'll pitch in for more kiwi shoe polish if you guys run out.

Oh yeah, and brews, too!

-Shadow

I'm sorry i have to say tho , and I hope this doesn't warrant s "red warn button"

But seriously, 911 was almost 10 years ago, I think every new idea and avenue about what happened that tragic day has been exhauseted stop belittleing others, they arent the first to think the idea,

This is mainly the reason i havent posted lately, I feel like i cant get in a single post, without getting stabbed a hundred diferent ways. Way to go nods, thanks for cracking down, keep up the good work,

-neX