Top home-school texts dismiss Darwin, evolution

reply to post by jephers0n


A professor of mine always said that Epigenetics is the Higgs-Obosom of evolutionary theory.

I am utterly convinced that we have proven many of Darwin's mechanism to the satisfaction of the most rigid scientific standards. Some of it we had to drop. It really depends on what we consider "Darwin's Theory"... Some insist that every word he ever wrote or spoke belongs in there, some have a narrower definition.

But anyway. I expect CERN to lead us to the material basis of gravity.

I expect epigenetics to prove and introduce indirect volition into genetic variability and with that pretty much prove the whole of the argument.

I wouldn't necessarily agree with the notion that we have proven the theory of gravity more satisfactorily than evolution up to now.
If they can be "proven" in a material or analytic sense really depends on the school of thought you subscribe to regarding the philosophy of science. But I have a strong conviction that human beings are all positivists to some degree, so I make very borad accusations..-. LOL..

Sorry again for automatically attacking you. I really shouldn't have.

[edit on 7-3-2010 by NichirasuKenshin]

lol. I would have thought that here on ATS everyone would be for home schooling no matter if they believed of God. With everyone's distrust in the government and all. For some reason this thread has been turned into a prove God exists thread. Okay I will play along. Well for the one's that do not believe one of two things will happen to you before you die. You will either start believing or you will not. Just like someone pointed out earlier, science is always changing, and God does not change. That is the difference. Science is the search for truth and God is the truth. That is the difference. Science is based on man's 3rd dimensional understanding and God is based on infinite dimensional understanding. That is the difference. Science is about man discovering what he believes is facts and God is about creating everything that is fact. That is the difference. Science is finding new information on something that already exists and God is finding information on why something already exists. That is the difference. Science is man's Tower of Babel and God is well....you already know how that turned out. lol. Facts. lol.


Allow me to pose a question to disbelievers.
You want proof that there is a God. What kind of proof will make you believe, without a shadow of doubt?

[edit on 7-3-2010 by Conclusion]

reply to post by 911stinks


Well said.

I could'nt agree with you more.

Originally posted by 911stinks
I think that some people confuse the entire bible as the words of God. In the bible, when God speaks, it says, "and the Lord said". The rest of the bible are words of the people who have heard the word of the Lord and written it down.

So the bits that aren't the 'words of God' could be any old rubbish? Such as, for example, the assertion that Earth was created in six days, six thousand years ago?

Makes sense.

Or at least, it would if the bits prefaced with 'and the Lord said' weren't even worse rubbish. Such as, for instance, Jehovah's mad ranting in the later chapters of Job.

The only time God ever wrote anything, is the ten commandments on the stone tablets.

Which version? The one in Exodus 20 (that Moses smashed)? The one in Exodus 34 (which is different)? The one in Deuteronomy 5 or the list of curses in Deuteronomy 27 (inscribed shortly before a God-directed massacre that makes nonsense of 'thou shalt not kill)? Which of these four is the true 'ten commandments'?

And what about the 'something' Jesus wrote in the sand in John 8? Doesn't that count?

Plato, Socrates are studied in schools as historical fact, but the bible is rarely studied in a University setting.

Socrates taught at no school. The Bible has been studied in a university setting from at least the eleventh century right up to the present day.

Now, who is narrow minded? The teacher who decides what is right and wrong, or the parent teaching their kids that the world is full of choices, and to make proper decisions, both sides of the coin must be examined carefully.

A completely false dichotomy. What makes you think parents--especially the kind who are so afraid of what children might learn at school that they won't let them go there--are so wonderfully openminded? The evidence, as we see, suggests exactly the opposite. I mean, people hiding the theory of evolution from their children--that's supposed to be a good thing?

[edit on 7/3/10 by Astyanax]

Originally posted by 911stinks
Great. So you can tell me why the electron is in magnetic orbit around the Nucleus?

When electrons are ripped from their orbit through opposing magnets, what makes them want to go to ground?

Electricity and magnetism are related. Magnetism is related to gravity. Saying you know one and not the other, shows your lack of understanding of either one of them.

Electricity and magnetism are related, yes, but please explain how magnetism is related to gravity?

I said electricity is well understood, I didn't say quantum mechanics is, though it does a good job of making predictions. Who said electrons are in magnetic orbit around the nucleus? This link explains why the very concept of an electron "orbit" is actually a bit of a misnomer:

www.chem1.com...

The picture of electrons "orbiting" the nucleus like planets around the sun remains an enduring one, not only in popular images of the atom but also in the minds of many of us who know better....

Back on topic, you never replied to my question about the student who was taught that science is wrong (as suggested by the OP of this thread) pursuing a career in science.

reply to post by Astyanax

Which version? The one in Exodus 20 (that Moses smashed)? The one in Exodus 34 (which is different)? The one in Deuteronomy 5 or the list of curses in Deuteronomy 27 (inscribed shortly before a God-directed massacre that makes nonsense of 'thou shalt not kill)? Which of these four is the true 'ten commandments'?

Please state the differences in a specific manner.

Socrates taught at no school. The Bible has been studied in a university setting from at least the eleventh century right up to the present day.

He did not say Socrates taught at a school. Please read more careful.

A completely false dichotomy. What makes you think parents--especially the kind who are so afraid of what children might learn at school that they won't let them go there--are so wonderfully openminded? The evidence, as we see, suggests exactly the opposite. I mean, people hiding the theory of evolution from their children--that's supposed to be a good thing?

False is your opinion. The same thing that makes you think otherwise. Truth does not mean open mindedness. There can only be one answer. They do not keep evolution away from their children, they simply explain it as not a fact, but a theory. Until we observe the actual change from one species to the next it will always be a theory. After all you will have to observe God or his works to believe in him.

[edit on 7-3-2010 by Conclusion]

Originally posted by Conclusion


False is your opinion. The same thing that makes you think otherwise. Truth does not mean open mindedness.Their can only be one answer.

Then by your logic the notion that there only can be one answer is also just your opinion.

They do not keep evolution away from their children,

but they do - all they present them with is the same convoluted straw-man representation of science and evolution like the people in this thread do. That is not teaching evolution.

they simply explain it as not a fact, but a theory.

So is gravity. Consistency demands that you deny that too as we have no material basis for believing in the theory of gravity up to now. But somehow gravity seems to be convincing to you?... how come?

Until we observe the actual change from one species to the next it will always be a theory. After all you will have to observe God or his works to believe in him.

We have observed it - in natura and in the laboratory. You know that, as you can't have missed it if you looked for it.

After all you will have to observe God or his works to believe in him.

Problem is - nobody ever has in a believable or reproduacable or coherent way up to now. Until then, I'll reserve my judgement on the question since I find it practically irrelevant.

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984

Originally posted by Logarock

The church of evolution has been shown to be one whos membership is full with fabricators, plagiarizers, liers, manufactures of evidence, undisciplined thinkers and dreamers. Their ministers like chicken hawks, await new arrivals from the outbacks, evey year at university.

[edit on 7-3-2010 by Logarock]

Still you seem pretty sure that the theory, which is supported by every branch of science and not just biology, is wrong and you speak as if you have evidence to support this viewpoint. Please supply this evidence, if you cannot then your opinion can be ignored as hot air.

Evolution as a study, as it has moved forward from inception, has been nothing but an effort by its apostles to prove itself. There is nothing established in it that it hasnt borrowed from some other field. Therefore its not even real science but a barnacle bosting itself on par with established fields. If physics as a science were equal with evolution as a field that resides in truth we would all remain the slave of horse and buggy.

reply to post by NichirasuKenshin

Then by your logic the notion that there only can be one answer is also just your opinion.

Well not just my opinion, but yes.

but they do - all they present them with is the same convoluted straw-man representation of science and evolution like the people in this thread do. That is not teaching evolution.

So by saying that, you are with them when they teach their children? Or are you just assuming that is how it is taught? You are doing exactly what you are accusing them of doing. lol.

So is gravity. Consistency demands that you deny that too as we have no material basis for believing in the theory of gravity up to now. But somehow gravity seems to be convincing to you?... how come?

No what we call gravity is an observable phenomena. You throw something up and it comes down. They knew that in biblical times. Consistency demands nothing. It is you who demand that. I have already come to terms with the fact that I will never learn why everything is the way it is before I die. So I have chose to learn what I can and stand up for what I know is the truth.

We have observed it - in natura and in the laboratory. You know that, as you can't have missed it if you looked for it.

We have not observed a change in species. How can you say such a thing when that is totally false. lol.

Problem is - nobody ever has in a believable or reproduacable or coherent way up to now. Until then, I'll reserve my judgement on the question since I find it practically irrelevant.

lol. Listen at you talk. It is obvious you have never experienced it. So to you it is false.

Yeah I thought you might not want to answer that.

reply to post by 911stinks


Then they are confusing INDOCTRINATION with EDUCATION.

And now that the kids are indoctrinated...
They still need to be educated.
Isn't this some kind of law here in the US?

reply to post by rusethorcain

You would hope so but apparently private schools and home schooling parents have a lot more latitude on what they can teach than public schools have, though the curricula still have to be approved. But for the homeschoolers in the OP, I'm guessing the curriculum says "Teach about evolution" so they approve that but what they don't know is that what actually happens during that time is the teaching about evolution is how wrong it is.

Well at least there's a law about it in public schools, but we're going to have millions of these miseducated homeschooled folks to deal with in society now, and that's unfortunate. What's really sad is the parents who didn't even want to miseducate their kids can even get stuck with these bogus teachings:

Home-school mom Susan Mule wishes she hadn't taken a friend's advice and tried a textbook from a popular Christian publisher for her 10-year-old's biology lessons. Mule's precocious daughter Elizabeth excels at science and has been studying tarantulas since she was 5. But she watched Elizabeth's excitement turn to confusion when they reached the evolution section of the book from Apologia Educational Ministries, which disputed Charles Darwin's theory.

(From the story linked in the OP).

reply to post by Arbitrageur


So where is the observable proof that species has changed into another species? Have we ever observed that happen? No we have not. It is just a theory not a fact. So it would be taught as a theory only, not fact, and that is the way it should be taught.

Those of you suggesting that children "learn both" (a convenient way to couch your religious zealotry in PC terms) are missing one big point. Which creationist story should children learn? If you only teach them one, then you're being just as exclusionary as the teacher's who won't teach the bible in science class. If you teach ALL of the creationist stories, we would need a whole separate class to do so.

So, which is it? Are you champions of ALL religion, or are you religious zealots trying to push Christian propaganda on children?

reply to post by VneZonyDostupa


Which ever one their parents, the one's that raise them and pay for their needs and wants, want them to learn.

Originally posted by Conclusion
reply to post by Arbitrageur

 

So where is the observable proof that species has changed into another species? Have we ever observed that happen? No we have not. It is just a theory not a fact. So it would be taught as a theory only, not fact, and that is the way it should be taught.

Shouldn't we also then be telling the kids the creation theory is just a story really and not even a theory at all.

It is a story not backed by a scintilla of evidence and only still a popular "story" by virtue of the fact that a great many people still believe it?

reply to post by VneZonyDostupa


An excellent point. These creationists only want their creation story, the bible based one to be given as an alternative. They don't want the Norse creation story, or the Egyptian one or hey what about the Mayan one? Nope just the Biblical story because all of those other ones are so obviously stupid!

It's so pathetically transparent. They want the Biblical story taught for two reasons.

1. They think maybe if some kids hear it they'll be converted to Christianity.

2. They're scared that if kids learn the Biblical creation story is a load of nonsense that does not stand up to any facts that they will abandon Christianity.

The first statement is possible. The second statement is ridiculous because you can believe in a God and accept evolution.

Science in the science class please.

reply to post by Conclusion


Uhm..

Ring species?

Why is this so hard for un-believers to accept. You don't want it taught because you do not believe. SO! Go on with your life, and let others go on with theirs.

Originally posted by Conclusion
Which ever one their parents, the one's that raise them and pay for their needs and wants, want them to learn.

Then ok home school them. Do not however ask for a completely unfounded scientific theory to be taught as science in a state school. Separation of church and state, ever hear of it? I'm not american and i've heard of that one. Also what about all the none religious parents? Why should they have their children taught a religious theory?

Once again, science in the science classroom please.

Originally posted by Conclusion
Why is this so hard for un-believers to accept. You don't want it taught because you do not believe. SO! Go on with your life, and let others go on with theirs.

I suppose we get upset at a compeltely unfounded theory being advocated as scientific and attempts being repeatedly made to teach it in science classrooms. We also get upset because the teaching of the creation story as a scientific theory means that many kids, who may have a future get denied it because they will struggle to excel in college and/or university until they learn about evolution.

Basically we get annoyed at the human race being held back by iron age stories being taught as fact, with no, zero, zip evidence.

Still your argument is easy to reverse. Why is it so hard for believers to accept evolution? So go on with your lives, teach your children the creation theory and let evolution be taught in school science classes

[edit on 7-3-2010 by ImaginaryReality1984]