The Final Minutes of the South Tower - The flaming inferno

reply to post by benoni


Oh, as to packs, and hunting....truthers are far more adept at that, thankyouverymuch!


But, in the OP video, I've listened and read, and I suggest if you try it again, with eyes closed (and tuning out the narrator, just focus on the firefighters' words) you can form a better mental picture of what was happening.

Might be harder for those not familiar with radio chatter. Aviation communications on the radio are similar, so I find the FFs' fairly easy to follow along.

I find instance of the narrator going way off-base, injecting supposition and speculation, instead of sticking just to facts.

Covered in my post.

Still, maybe BoneZ will comment. It is his group, after all, that put out the vid, right?

OK..tried your technique...closed my eyes...gave it a couple of minutes...came to the same conclusion...and I am not a pilot as you claim to be, so your aviation skills certainly dont give you the edge over us mere mortals mate....

First conclusion??

Small fires...two lines needed...end of story!!

Second conclusion??

The building should never, ever have fallen....

Final conclusion??

Forces other than fire caused their collapse...


...and that with eyes closed.

[edit on 8-3-2010 by benoni]

[edit on 8-3-2010 by benoni]

reply to post by benoni

Small fires...two lines needed...end of story!!

Perhaps I wasn't clear enough in that post of mine that I bumped for _BoneZ_

Those "small fires" were blocking access, as the FFs were climbing...sothey were in the stair well! Thatindicates, at the very least, that fires had breached, and stairwells are supposed to be a fre excape, as I understand it. To protect people, as they evacuate.

From within the narrow confines of a stairwell, the perspective to guage the full extent of any conflagration would be limited, as well.

I should have added, it would be nice to see a plan view of just where they were, in which stairwell.

Both overhead, and side view, in relation to the airplane impact/entry point. That's what I meant about better visualizing the situation, as well. Knowing the layout, then listening again.

Otherwise, there is context lacking.

And, on floor 77, they were still BELOW the major damage, and fires. We know there were large fires, because we were on the outside. The video evidence is there for all to see.

Make sense yet? My point, trying to make, is that video doesn't tell the whole story, it is skewed, in my opinion.

personally, I prefer the inputs from the FF who were on the ground...or in the buildings to be precise.

Firefighters are trained to analyse fire and its behaviour.

The FF said he required two lines...

Why do you doubt the expert testimony of a now dead fireman yet are quite happy to say nothing in relation to pickled pepper and his baloney????

Just seems odd that you, a "pilot", a man who presumably is constantly gauging and managing risk whilst flying cannot accept that a firefighter, like you, manages risk both for himself and his colleagues, as well as the public(or passengers in your supposed case..), and theFF's deemed the risk sufficient to request two lines.....

Given you dont know the exact location of the FF's you suspect they hadnt reached the MAJOR fires yet??A speculation on your part....

Equally, could it not be the opposite ie. they knew exactly where they were, and given their position relative to the fires, could give an expert opinion on the situation??

Ie. Two lines required...

And it's not like we're talking about hours to go here,just a couple minutes.

It's not conclusive?Mighty suggestive.But combined with the picture of the poor unfortunate woman(Full head of hair,not burned off god I hate this I've done this to myself and it's bad)waving from the hole,they together sorta clinch the deal.Tag team truth.

reply to post by benoni


I'll have to defer to someone like "thedman" if he comes in, since he IS a FF.

When I hear "two lines" I intuitively think 'hoses'. I also assume (pure assumption) that there were intact water sources available on the lower floors, somewhere. Since I don't know how long each 'line' is, it's pure guesswork --- however I doubt highly that 'two' would reach all the way to street level.

Not all of the firefighting water lines were broken, I would imagine.
Perhaps the 44th floor 'skylobby' was a water source, or some intermediate floor?? Others probably have the history on this, in detail. Maybe available for review somewhere on the Web.

That's why I reserve judgement, and not rely solely on the OP video to raw a full conclusion. I don't think that represents the full picture.

That's my way of thinking, so far, on this story.

reply to post by trueforger


Do we know for sure it was the South Tower? The photo of the woman in the opening?

I remember, from the long-view photos, you can tell which way the wind was blowing, by the direction of the smoke. Also, the damage to the building, in the picture, looks like it was hit by UAL 175, which was in a left-hand bank at impact. So, that is likely the North Tower.

Wind was out of the northwest.

SO....standing in the opening of the North Tower, the wind would have been blowing IN, and the only refuge from the smoke and heat would be there, where the woman was standing.

reply to post by benoni

Small fires...two lines needed...end of story!!

Yes FF are trained to analyze fires

That why Chief Palmer estimated would need 2 lines

Now just what do you think he meant by 2 lines?

Couple of garden hoses to piss out the fire?

FDNY uses 2 1/2 inch hoses - a 2 1/2 inch with a straight tip as used by
FDNY flows over 300 gallons/minute

And Chief Palmer wanted 2 of them?

Thats pretty significant fires

Also fires were on 78th floor which was skylobby - most of the floor was
taken up by elevator machinery with only small offices on floor

Not lot to burn there and still needed 2 lines to contain the fire....

I water my garden with a hose one inch in diameter...

theirs was one and a half times in dia. larger....

Your point??

Considering one line is the minimum needed to fight a fire, two lines is the second least number of hoses one could use...!!

Not that many afterall methinks...but hey, your the FF!!

[edit on 8-3-2010 by benoni]

reply to post by weedwhacker

When I hear "two lines" I intuitively think 'hoses'. I also assume (pure assumption) that there were intact water sources available on the lower floors, somewhere. Since I don't know how long each 'line' is, it's pure guesswork --- however I doubt highly that 'two' would reach all the way to street level.

Not all of the firefighting water lines were broken, I would imagine.
Perhaps the 44th floor 'skylobby' was a water source, or some intermediate floor?? Others probably have the history on this, in detail. Maybe available for review somewhere on the Web.

FF would be carrying several lenghts of hose, nozzle and other tools

Probably 4 50 ft lenght of hose in a donut roll for easier handling - called
'Rollups" in FDNY parlance

In the stairways would be standpipe connection with 2 1/2 thread - below the impact floor plumbing was mostly intact. Water would be pumped
from internal water tanks or from the street using special high pressure
pumpers with 3 stage pumps. Building also have internal fire pumps in
mechanical rooms

Standpipes were installed in the stairwells one each floor, gravity fed from 75,708 L (20,000 gal) of stored water and by three large water pumps.

considering the great big hole the plane left, the heat from the fireball and the damage that this alone would of caused.
Also that fire continued to burn and that at least 3 known floors crumbled and collapsed. Floor 104, floor 105, and floor 106.
Plus the rest of damage on floors the plane destroyed.

wouldn't this have been enough to weaken and deform the structure to a point of collapse.

"wouldn't this have been enough to weaken and deform the structure to a point of collapse."

Certainly...if the structure was made out of Silly Putty.

Funny how in the audio tapes, the firemen do not mention anything about excessive heat as they approach the fires. Yet, there was enough heat in those buildings to soften or melt steel? This is sounding more and more like a fable only a handful of tag team wrestlers would believe.

In the stairways would be standpipe connection with 2 1/2 thread - below the impact floor plumbing was mostly intact.
Standpipes were installed in the stairwells one each floor, gravity fed from 75,708 L (20,000 gal) of stored water and by three large water pumps.

oh this is just too damn easy. Please explain how 2 1/2" steel lines survived the raging infernos, massive damage from airplanes, etc....you know all that stuff that supposedly melted the f-ing internal steel columns

Thank you..come again!

[edit on 3/8/2010 by budaruskie]

[edit on 3/8/2010 by budaruskie]

Originally posted by benoni
I water my garden with a hose one inch in diameter...

theirs was one and a half times in dia. larger....

Your point??

Considering one line is the minimum needed to fight a fire, two lines is the second least number of hoses one could use...!!

Not that many afterall methinks...but hey, your the FF!!

This is the problem with certain truthers. They get professional opinions and STILL claim to know more.

Here is an 11 second clip of a 2 1/2 inch line in use during training. I have done similar training and I can tell you, there is some serious pressure going on.




Lets compare that to a garden hose:




Thedman...again, thank you for all your insight.

reply to post by ImAPepper


Ok, I'm gonna ask just once more since you obviously glossed over the post directly above your last one.

How did 2 1/2" steel lines, these plumbing lines that the firefighters were obviously using, survive what the core steel columns could not survive? The official story states that the interior columns were heated to a point where they lost their integrity even below the floors impacted by airliners.
So, defend this ridiculous notion please. I wan't to see how you're gonna spin that one buddy!

reply to post by thedman


"dman" ----

When you sign in again and read this, would it be appropriate to ask you your professional opinion, and thoughts that went through your head, as you observed (and listened on the radio frequencies) that day?

I'm not sure if the thread is the proper forum, or not. Perhaps it's OK?

Because, I can remember my thinking as I watched....didn't tune in until after UAL 175 hit, because I got a call from someone to watch on CNN.

I, too, thought that maybe the fires would be contained, and there'd be a chance to sift through it all, recover the Recorders, and so forth.

But, back then I had no concept of the actual building design, of the Towers, and their vulnerability after sustaining all that tremendous damage.

Was there a creeping suspicion among you and your colleagues, prior to the first collapse? An uneasy "what if it collapses" feeling? Because, you would have been much more familiar with the arrangement than most of us.

And, side-bar topic:

Has anyone stopped to consider the physics, by looking at the structure design, of how the buildings would have sustained themselves if the fire and heat were taken out of the equation? Just the initial impact damage alone --- would the wounded portion have eventually given way, allowing all that mass directly above it to fall down, as we saw, and smash its way to the ground?

Could be an interesting study.

I thought that the fire sprinklers weren't working with no water to put fires out through them, so would there be water available through the standpipes then also. would not electricity be needed for those water pumps to work as well.

[edit on 9-3-2010 by redgy]

[edit on 9-3-2010 by redgy]

You have to ask yourself why Tower 2 collapses first, don't you? Tower 2 was hit second, "burned" for less time than Tower 1 and yet it collapsed first. Could it be that someone was listening in on these firefighter conversations and said something like, "Hell we can't let them get up to the 78th floor! It will expose everything! Time to detonate the building!" Rudy Giuliani perhaps in his protected space in WTC7? Speaking of WTC7, where did the billions in gold that were stored there disappear to? Who has it?

reply to post by weedwhacker
You should watch Zero: An investigation into 9/11. They explain as have so many that the buildings were built to withstand multiple planes crashing into them.

reply to post by theyareoutthere


See how relying on 'conspiracy' sites gives you bad information?

The gold and silver bullion was stored in the basement of WTC 4. Most of it is owned by the Bank of Nova Scotia.

It was recovered. Though, thre are disagreements as to its full value, and just howmuch there was. Exagerrations are everywhere, and some allege insurance fraud.

The basement of 4 World Trade Center housed vaults used to store gold and silver bullion. Published articles about precious metals recovered from the World Trade Center ruins in the aftermath of the attack mention less than $300 million worth of gold. All such reports appear to refer to a removal operation conducted in late October of 2001. On Nov. 1, Mayor Rudolph Giuliani announced that "more than $230 million" worth of gold and silver bars that had been stored in a bomb-proof vault had been recovered. A New York Times article contained:

Two Brinks trucks were at ground zero on Wednesday to start hauling away the $200 million in gold and silver that the Bank of Nova Scotia had stored in a vault under the trade center ... A team of 30 firefighters and police officers are helping to move the metals, a task that can be measured practically down to the flake but that has been rounded off at 379,036 ounces of gold and 29,942,619 ounces of silver ..

And this is from a 'truther' site!!!

911research.wtc7.net...