At what point does taxation become organized theft?

I just heard Judge Andrew Napolitano say that you can only tax people so much before it becomes theft.

What do you think that level is?

For me, it would be anything thing that takes money from me that doesn't return a good or service to me. So say Military spending pays for the service of defense, or fire services provide, well, fire services, or police provide protection, judges provide justice (allegedly), etc..

So taking money from the tax payer to pay it to someone else as some form of entitlement or bailout would seem to be theft to me.

What do you think?

Certainly when you are forced to pay more than 10% in taxes then that must cross some line, because even God only wants 10% and he is allegedly the big Kahuna.

My short opinion...is the entire financial apparatus is a theft scheme. However, somehow we agreed to this method. The point that it becomes theft is when the philosophy involved shifts away from the benefit of the people it serves, instead favoring the rich class of citizenry. The point that it becomes theft is when the tax revenues are spent to give the greatest benefit to corporations instead of the people. The point that it becomes theft is when the reasoning behind the taxation is in violation of the Constitution.

in most cases, as soon as the law is passed. Any taxation laws should be held for voting by the populus, not upon passage by a legislative body

I think that the United States Government is already beyond that line, in fact I saw a sign that Congressman Ron Paul had on his desk that said "Don't steal! The Government Doesn't Like Competition".

My opinion is, if my tax money or otherwise is being given to anyone for a particular purpose and it is then not used for that purpose, I regard that as theft. Kind of like if your a father and you give your daughter several thousand dollars to put toward her college fund and she uses it to buy a car, that is technically theft in my book. Why?

Because the money I give is labeled in my mind for a certain purpose, if my money doesn't go toward that purpose then you no longer have my consent to use it. We say "You have to pay taxes", but do we not look around to see what our tax dollars end up as? When taxes keep getting higher and higher, yet economy keeps getting worse and worse, I would have to believe that the government is not using my tax dollars efficiently and therefore has no right to them.

The Protector

Its always been theft, its just that now people are educating themselves on this topic through media portals and now they can see it for themselves.

Taxes are an odious burden upon the people and should never be imposed lightly by a legislature.

In times past, a people would rise up against their oppressors if the tax burden became to heavy. The fear of an uprising often was all that was needed to keep oppressive taxes in check.

Somehow, through conditioning, apathy, fear, whatever... the people lost their fighting spirit and have meekly submitted to over taxation ever since.

If enough people could regain their fighting spirit, the age of over taxation and big government could be ended.

When does taxation become tax, I unfortunately watched Glenn Beck as well today. This is a good question! And I would define taxes a theft as when the governing body, goes against the ideals set forth in the Constitution i.e the 16th amendment. The blatant theft of our tax dollars to pick winners in the bank failures was just that, blatant theft.
The government has many entitlement programs that are against the ideals of the founding documents. This of course is barring veteran programs, the government does owe for service.

Any percent of income is too high.

Any percent higher than 10% on sales is too high.

Any fees in regards to our liberties is too high, e.g. drivers licensing or gun licensing.

Any property tax is too high, if you own something, you own it.

Any sin tax is too high.

I could go on, but you get my drift.

I'm pretty sure it would be considered theft when they quit actually using the money for the public good. I.E. all the socialist stuff we have like schools, roads, firefighting equipment, pigs with badges, the list of stuff goes on and on. And what's more, if the government actually quit taking taxes I am 100% positive that the first people to start complaining about the government not doing anything would be the idiots who can't seem to grasp their heads around WHY we have taxes.

Taxation ceases to be justified when it is not used in the following ways:

- To operate the actual daily expenses of government: employees, office space, office supplies, utilities, etc

- On projects that do not benefit all people ENTIRELY equally at the same time rather than narrow groups. To illustrate what I mean on this one I'll list what does and does not fall into this.

Is equal:
- Roads
- Police
- Fire/Rescue
- Libraries
- Primary Education
- Local/State/National Parks
- Defense

Not equal:
- Social Programs
- Foreign Aid
- Grants
- Private Education
- Bailouts

to name a few...

This also do not take into consideration what level the taxation is collected by, what level the money must pass through, and where the money ultimately returns to the people by.

That's another topic, and one equally as interesting and important.


Keep in mind that the consideration of theft is not attached to the percentage OR the amount that is taxed. It has nothing to do with the amount, but rather how it is used.

[edit on 26-2-2010 by KrazyJethro]

reply to post by KrazyJethro


I can see and agree to some social programs like job education, transportation to and from work at a subsidized rate, jobs benefiting public works like snow removal, litter removal. In fact I would like to see 100% of IRS funds collect to go for those programs just once to see the huge difference it would make.

I don't participate in the $3 dollar campaign fund on the 1040 form, but if all campaigning was restricted to money from this fund, then I would support it. I do however check the $1 State Parks Fund on my State 1040, even though it reduces my refund by $1.

its not theft at all, not even one bit,

everyone consents to pay tax, its voluntary, you agree to it even if you dont realize the ways in which you do it

I don't know about you but I don't make it a practice to burn down my kitchen or fall asleep with a cigarette in my hand. I don't want or need fire service.

I live in a low crime area and have dead bolts. Police rarely catch thieves, they spend most of their time giving out traffic tickets and busting non-violent drug offenders.

I oppose wars of aggression, we do not need a $700 billion defense budget to keep the nation safe from rag tag groups of terrorists. If the intelligence agencies had let the state dept do their job and bar entry to some of the 9/11 hijackers rather than let them in under the guise of discovering larger terrorist networks we might not have had a 9/11.

I don't have kids and may never, why should I have to pay property taxes which mostly go to the schools in my town?

Need I continue?

I came to this thread because I agree, taxation is legalized theft but you are just as bad as those in charge. You want to collect taxes to pay for crap you think is needed and don't want to collect taxes for stuff you don't support.

That is no different than those currently in charge.

When you have to pay it in advance and when you have to pay double social security.

Though I have to admit I'm somewhat biased since I consider myself an emancipated corporate wage slave and frequently file on a schedule C.

[edit on 26-2-2010 by Crito]

Originally posted by tankthinker
its not theft at all, not even one bit,

everyone consents to pay tax, its voluntary, you agree to it even if you dont realize the ways in which you do it

I do not consent to pay taxes. I pay taxes because if I do not they will come and take my stuff. So basicaly, I pay from fear of the force they can bring against me.

Taxation and Government itself is all organized theft. Providing a service at the barrel of a gun as Marc Stevens would say. Everybody needs to quit thinking "when did we agree to this" because you DID NOT AGREE TO ANY OF IT. Everybody wants to be what everyone else wants them to be. Not very many people including myself about 3-4 yrs ago. think for themselves and stop for a second and think about what the truth is...

You are a HUMAN BEING not a US citizen, (insert state here) citizen, rebublican, democrat, or libertarian. You were born on this earth just like everyone else and every person is EQUAL. Black, white, brown, yellow, man, or woman does not matter. Boss, worker, president, congressman, irs agent, or any title you want to give yourself. In the end it does not matter 1 bit. Government is the root for all problems we see and face. Violence comes from being violated, period. They way you live your life and the things you are subjected too is what makes you...you. Just go watch the stanford prison experiment. Regular good people like your and me, put in a position of power over other human beings will do unspeakable things. I don't care who you are.

If you really want to understand how these people do what they do, start researching the law. Everything is contract whether you know it or not. DON'T CONTRACT. Educate yourself in the law and bring the fight to them.

People of the entire earth need to come together for each other and I think the best place to start is right here.

And yes ALL taxation is against our humanity. Think about it stop paying income tax and stop having it withheld from your paycheck (It can be done) and see how much better you can live and how much less stressful it is when you have that 30-40% of your HARD EARNED money (Which was exchanged for your LABOR) back in your pocket. You can use the very laws they created to hold you down and fight back for yours and every others human beings life on this planet.

Anyway that's my thought on the subject.

Joe ("Nonresident alien" non "US citizen" "nontaxpayer" Sovereign Human Being)

[edit on 26-2-2010 by kjburto]

It becomes theft at any point were the taxpayer cannot have as say in the making of it, the taking of it. And thats just at about evey point.

Taxation/Representaion.

Direct taxation is 100% theft always. Where I'm told I have to pay such as income, property/housing taxation or the like. Where leverage can be applied to my existence or the quality of my existence is threatened it is criminal theft.

Indirect taxes such as sales taxes are 100% theft if they apply to essentials like food items, clothing where I have to pay to survive or have basic normalcy. Luxury tax is not theft if properly applied.

However, why don't we try and free ourselves from the need for taxes, the need to make money in order for society to function? Perhaps a paradigm shift is needed in how we view things such as service and opportunity?

reply to post by tankthinker


There are a few different types of theft. Theft by means of trickery and embezzlement are more appropriate for this discussion. Even with the citizens consent to pay taxes, it is not taken to the peoples "bank" to be deposited. The tax money is entrusted to them and is being misappropriated... taken with the intent to permanently deprive THEFT.

I think it's theft from the time they take it out of my wages. I have traded my skill and time for money, which has been deemed a fair exchange in the marketplace. What is there to tax, my labor?

Not to mention that our origins are in protest of taxation without representation. Taxes should be agreed upon in exchange for public benefit. I'm not seeing much agreement or benefit.

[edit on 26/2/2010 by kosmicjack]