Rape? It's the fault of the victims, say 50 per cent of women

Originally posted by Blue_Jay33
reply to post by novacs4me

 

So here's a tip for those guys who think it has ANYTHING to do with her clothing: If she doesn't want to go to first base with you, she doesn't want to go to home plate with you.

Since you just tagged me as a foe I might as well deserve it, lol.

Don't be naive, do you really think a drunk man really cares or even thinks about that. His mental capacity degrades with every drink, it also diminishes his code of morality, which might be quite low to start with. So in a atmosphere of drunken partying a woman's clothing has EVERYTHING to do with how a man will treat her.

I know it's wrong and unfair, but it is reality.

[edit on 20-2-2010 by Blue_Jay33]

Naive? I guess you didn't read anything else I wrote. I don't give the man the excuse of alcohol for rape, any more than I would give a wife beater the excuse of alcohol for battering his wife. I am just so tired of trying to 'deny ignorance' in men who want to believe women cause the assaults against their bodies. I give up. From now on, those who INSIST we cause it ourselves are my foes.

Edited to add:
Decided not to go to bed mad, and cleared my 'foes' list.

[edit on 20-2-2010 by novacs4me]

The fact remains that the man is now a rapist and the woman is a victim.

It doesn't matter how much he drank, what she was wearing or what any of the other circumstances are. Either a man is capable of rape or he isn't.

Alcohol doesn't make you do things, it only lowers the inhibition threshold making it more likely that someone who has the capacity and desire to rape will actually do it.

The fact remains that the man is now a rapist and the woman is a victim.

reply to post by gluetrap


Personally I prefer the term rape survivor......

Victims are not at fault by definition,and any attempt to temper the penalty for a crime by WRONGLY ADJUDICATING DEGREES OF ACCOUNTABILITY TO THE OFFENDER AND THE VICTEM BOTH is a betrayal of the integrity and direction of the legal sysem and is a betrayal of our responsibility to protect victims.

One offender----one victem---OFFENDER ASSUMES 100% OF ACCOUNTABILITY .

This thread has been a good one and has touched on a lot of interesting topics ,someone even misinterpreted my example of rape not being ONLY A CRIME OF VIOLENCE--that there is a major component of hormonal motivation and bad decision making.Violence is always a component ,and any crossing of a personal boundry is violent in nature so yes rape is always violent ,but to say rape is a crime of violence is dangerous because it gives the impression that if you keep yourself on the lookout for violent men as a woman you should be safer from rape--THIS IS DANGEROUS because being a rape victem is in the greatest way a situational issue,it is impossible to identify a potential rapist wether he displays overt signs of being violent or wether he is a pastor,BUT YOU CAN MAKE SITUATIONAL AWARENESS A PART OF YOUR EVERYDAY LIFE AND THIS WILL KEEP YOU SAFER FROM A LOT OF OTHER CRIMES AS WELL AS RAPE.

You can endevour to keep yourself out of the situations as in physical locale or where you are and the situational dynamics as in who you are with and your evaluation of that or those people.

Many of the components of preventative action have been touched upon here and punative actions have also been discussed.

I would like to give my respect and regards to anyone who has been touched by this crime in their lives.

I believe that exchanges of perspective are always positive,BUT WE MUST REMEMBER TO ALWAYS GIVE THE MAJORITY OF OUR FOCUS TO SUPPORTING THE VICTEMS OF CRIME AND WHAT LITTLE REMAINS MUST BE USED TO PROPERLY PUNISH OFFENDERS.

To the poster who thought I said that all men had raging hardons when they fought each other ----it was the opposite ,I meant to say that I have been in my share of fights as a man that were violent and have never had or witnessed a male in the middle of a violent encounter with an erection,my point is that it would be pretty hard to tell a rape victem that rape is predominately a violence motivated crime considering the basics of the offense. And as I said earlier it is dangerous not to focus on situational awareness more than signs of possible violent potential offenders.

I again offer my apologies and respect for the strength of the people reading and replying to these posts who have been affected by this crime ,they are very brave to participate and their contributions will surely help educate all of us.

I also offer my deepest assurances to offenders that I support execution because the nature of the offense is life altering on a humanitarian level.



[edit on 20-2-2010 by one4all]

reply to post by gluetrap


I agree with you to a point but are you saying that every man who forces his attentions on a women because she turns him on without meaning to is an un outed criminal rapist?.I do not think this is all ways the case I had a guy get very near to an emotional point of no return and I did nothing to cause this in my opinion and he was a very quiet and decent guy from what I could see but I was quite naive and I had never been in such a victimised position before but this quiet shy guy turned into some kind of incredible hulk type character and I literally had to fight him off,it taught me a valuable lesson though,you cannot control men when they get to a certain point,to this day it makes me wonder about the power a women has over a man any man in emotional situations but it can be very scary as well.This guy appologised later to me but I could not believe that boring me could have the power to get a guy like this.

Originally posted by OutKast Searcher
reply to post by riley

 

Just reading this thread you can see there are actually people that believe some women bewitch men into raping them. You were saying skimpy clothes help a rapist choose their target while others believe skimpy clothes can create rapists.

Still mis-representing views I see. I stopped commenting on this topic because the total acceptance by you and those on your "side" to completely abandon logic for this topic.

How dare you. In your last post you even dragged another poster into and implied that she'd been unhappy with the way I had been posting when she wasn't talking about me at all. I misreprented nothing and people HAVE been saying that skimpy clothing turns men into rapists. I like how you ignored the rest of my post of course.. probably because you couldn't spin it the way you wanted.

I have pointed out many logical flaws. I have pointed out many mis-quotes. I have pointed out many mis-represnetations of views.

No you have not. You actually quoted me as saying I did not and I re-quoted myself to prove you were decieving people. This has obviously pissed you off as you are stlil carrying on about it and have an obvious vendetta against me.

And yet none of you will respond to them. I have just accepted the fact that some of you are delusional and will never take personal responsibility for your own safety...and I assume you will probably never take personal responsibility for much in your life if this is how you treat your own safety.

We have responded to them. Just because it is not the response YOU want does not mean we haven't. You also accused me of "having a problem with being wrong" JUST BECAUSE I would not admit you were right. That amount of egotism has no place in a civil discussion.. you do not want to discuss things.. you only want to make people adhere to your point of view. You declare other people's opinions as being NA as though your opinion trumps all others which is EXACTLY why I ignored your last reply to me. I believe you a trolling and baiting and am sick of your offtopic personal attacks.

Like it or not, dressing in a certain way, going to certain places, getting way drunk, or acting in a certain way has the possibility of marking you as a target for a violent crime.

There is no way of being able to predict what personal tastes a random criminal has so it still would NEVER make a victim to blame which is what the subject is actually about.

Enjoy being the perpetual victim...should be a very confrontational life blaming everyone else for the problems of the world. I can't be in a discussion where one side decides that they will operate outside the rules of logic...so I'm probably done.

I am very pro-active in regard to my own safety so I don't see how I am a "perpetual victim".

..and you have not tried to discuss things with logic. You misquote repetively always claiming you have been the victim of it.. then when someone completely unrelated chimes in about the overall behaviour on this thread.. you blatently misquote them and say they were talking about me. You have lost all credibilty and I only answered to defend myself.

..which just showed you baited yet again which is your style.
Reply, misquote and bait all you want this is my last response to you. Well unless I have to requote my last sentence.

[edit on 20-2-2010 by riley]

First off most polls are designed to get the answer they want.

Second - - this was an online poll. How does anyone know who is being honest about their age and gender?

reply to post by novacs4me

I don't give the man the excuse of alcohol for rape, any more than I would give a wife beater the excuse of alcohol for battering his wife. I am just so tired of trying to 'deny ignorance' in men who want to believe women cause the assaults against their bodies.

I agree with you 100%. I man that rapes is always 100% to blame. I think you misunderstand me. All I am saying is that woman should be me more aware, are they going to be surrounded by drunk men? If so is it really wise to dress in super revealing lingerie type clothing? Even then poor judgment on the part of a woman never ever justifies sexual assault of any kind.

Does a person deserve to be beaten and robbed? No. But if the person goes to a nasty part of a city where criminals and gangs hang out at 2 am, that person is just asking for trouble. Poor judgment never justifies an evil, but people need to use some basic common sense.

reply to post by Blue_Jay33
I am glad to hear you are 100% against rape. If you go back and read this post which you made, I think you will see that in response to a guy claiming our clothes make us get raped, you agreed. You also speculated that the percentage of women who get raped without drugs or alcohol was small. The implication that we cause our own rapes was in that post.

Here are some statistics about who rapists are. Much as you might like to think they are drunken men, unable to control themselves; only 1/3 were under the influence. More than half occurred within a mile of the victim's home. Well, these are U.S. Department of Justice, Bureau of Statistics statistics.

I contend that if each rapist was to walk out of his home painted bright yellow tomorrow, you would be stunned at how many are right beside you where you work. I KNOW if the people who work with/for the two men who raped me could see they were rapists, they would be in total disbelief. Only the unmistakable yellow paint would convince them. "You, a rapist? Well, she must have deserved it, then." they would say. I offer this picture for those who want harsh punishment for ALL rapists. I think you only want harsh punishment for 'stranger rape' and 'weird guy' rape, not for a friend or family member who is a rapist.

Edited for sentence structure error.



[edit on 21-2-2010 by novacs4me]

Originally posted by Blue_Jay33

... Alcohol consumption seems to go hand in hand with rapes too.

It would be interesting to know what percentage amount of reported rapes take place with no alcohol or drugs. It's probably a very small number percentage wise.

there is nothing magical about drugs making people weak and disoriented, is there?

why do some rapists use chemicals to spike people's drinks? because then they don't have to face the prospect of having their eyes gouged out in public, that's why.

Alcohol is of course more insidious, because refusing it will only make you a mark in the eyes of a lot of people and it's no surprise that mating related events tend to drown in alcohol, people seem to sincerely believe they're not going to get any from a sober woman. maybe they know from experience, maybe it's just a tradition, but it's very wrong on many levels because the underlying belief is that true consent is neither required nor desired. Then it's only a question of developing enough criminal courage until drinks are laced with rohypnol or versed and people pulled into dark alleys.

Originally posted by teapot

Originally posted by aero56

I think there is less sympathy for a rape victim who is scantily dressed and participates in drinking or teasing behavior. Let's be honest, why do women dress that way? Why do women tease and lead men on? They know exactly what they are doing. So when they are assaulted, they are shocked??

Some women dress for themselves, some women dress to impress men and some women dress to impress other women.

Being a fashion victim is not an invitation to rape.

Perhpas being fashion conscious is a better way to go. Cleaveage, short skirts, tight jeans, all draw attention. All it takes is for one idiot to make a move to rape, based on the suggestive clothing. Certainly a woman's dress is not always what drives a rape. Many innocent women are raped. Rape should be punished by putting the rapist in an underground confinement so he/she never sees the light of day again. But, again, women do need to be more responsible in the way some of them dress. Let's be honest.

In 1 in 3 sexual assaults, the perpetrator was intoxicated — 30% with alcohol, 4% with drugs.

But the other statistic doesn't exist, how many of the woman were drunk when they were raped. If a woman puts herself in a position where men think they can take advantage of a woman, they might. It's 100% wrong for them to do so, of coarse. I doubt a drunk woman is going to scream at the top her lungs...
DON'T, STOP, NO.
And she shouldn't even have too, the man should know better.
Men also gamble that she might not remember a thing because of massive alcohol consumption.

But some men are just moral pigs, they look for drunk women to take advantage of, willing or not.

Originally posted by riley

Originally posted by aero56
I think there is less sympathy for a rape victim who is scantily dressed and participates in drinking or teasing behavior. Let's be honest, why do women dress that way? Why do women tease and lead men on? They know exactly what they are doing. So when they are assaulted, they are shocked??

Congratulations on being yet another person who prepetuates the falsehood that "some" women ask to be raped. Rapists everywhere thank you for making it that much harder for victims to go to the police.

I never said women ask to be raped. I stated that I think there is less sympathy to victims who do the above. Women who dress and act in a loose manner draw a lot of negative attention. They have to know that when they go out dressed that way and act that way. They do know what they are doing. They dress provocatively on purpose. However, the attention they get could be devestating. I don't want women being assaulted or raped. That's why, in this society, women need to be on high alert. I'm sorry if my post was misleading. A rapist is always responsible. I fear for women. Sexual assault, and violence against women is on the rise. Women have to be more aware.

The entire 'women should be mindful of the sort of attention they might attract if they dress in certain ways', argument supports the notion that women are responsible for understanding the mindset of the average male, so as to subvert or avoid the intentions of the predatory, deviant male.

Until the average male stops telling females to modify their behaviour and sartorial choices and starts trying to understand the mindset of the average female, the predators will continue to operate on the assumption that some women 'ask for it, and if you don't believe me, ask any bloke and he will tell you that women should get real and cover themselves up'.

reply to post by teapot

Until the average male.... starts trying to understand the mindset of the average female...

That's not going to happen anytime soon.

Once again the female will approach this topic with an emotional viewpoint, (we can dress and do whatever we want) and the male with a logical viewpoint. (no you can't, because you will attract unwanted attention)

I agree with both viewpoints, but world reality dictates caution for both sexs in this area. With each blaming the other in frustration, it is difficult topic. But it is interesting that such a large group of woman actually do blame the victim. I wonder if the percentage is as high with men, I hope not. And wouldn't it be interesting if a higher percentage of women blamed women than men. That would say so much about the viewpoint of women, who better to know than themselves.

Originally posted by Blue_Jay33
reply to post by teapot

 

And wouldn't it be interesting if a higher percentage of women blamed women than men. That would say so much about the viewpoint of women, who better to know than themselves.

I am a woman and I do not agree so why would they know better? Truth is not based on popular opinion and this online poll has not been proven to reflect the opinions of all women and it was only younger women that apparently thought that. hell it hasn't even been proven that it was women taking the poll.

[edit on 21-2-2010 by riley]

Originally posted by aero56

Originally posted by riley

Originally posted by aero56
I think there is less sympathy for a rape victim who is scantily dressed and participates in drinking or teasing behavior. Let's be honest, why do women dress that way? Why do women tease and lead men on? They know exactly what they are doing. So when they are assaulted, they are shocked??

Congratulations on being yet another person who prepetuates the falsehood that "some" women ask to be raped. Rapists everywhere thank you for making it that much harder for victims to go to the police.

I never said women ask to be raped. I stated that I think there is less sympathy to victims who do the above. Women who dress and act in a loose manner draw a lot of negative attention. They have to know that when they go out dressed that way and act that way. They do know what they are doing. They dress provocatively on purpose. However, the attention they get could be devestating.

You talk about honesty then when your opinion is challenged and shown for what it is you disown it and say you meant something else? To me saying "leads men on" is the same as saying "she asks for it". It perpetatues ideas that enable rapists to prey on certain kinds of women above others.. it gives them a moral loophole.

So what do you mean.. "leading men on" to rape them? or "leading men on" to initiate a courtship and relationship, flirt, ask for a phone humber, dance or have sex? They do not seek to draw negative attention. Just attention.. I do not see sexual expression as negative personally.. it is normal and healthy. You seem to think assault in reaction to sexy clothing is a rational and reasonable response otherwise you would not ask "why are they shocked?" as though a victim just missed something so obvious to you?

I don't want women being assaulted or raped. That's why, in this society, women need to be on high alert. I'm sorry if my post was misleading. A rapist is always responsible. I fear for women. Sexual assault, and violence against women is on the rise. Women have to be more aware.

If violence is on the rise trying to change the victim's behaviour will do FA. What do people want? Stop one girl from wearing a mini skirt so he moves onto another girl who is? Regardless he will rape someone and a club minus mini skirts will just means women wearing longer skirts will get raped instead. Wow that changes things.

Skimpy clothing might make a woman a target for rape.. but so might a woman sitting in the corner looking weak and defensless with an unprotected drink just asking to be spiked. Unfortuantly women who do that are not being warned that that could put them in danger.. everyone is pre-occupied with telling them they are dressing all wrong. Why? Are non-skimpy-clothes-provoked-rapes somehow less dangerous?

[edit on 21-2-2010 by riley]