Israel,love it or hate it?

Originally posted by Subjective Truth
reply to post by captaintyinknots

 

By your post I see no hate I see a real concern and I believe you that hate has nothing to do with it. But read some of the other posts and you hopefully you will see a pattern like I have.

A perfect example is the first reply in this thread you can feel the hate.

[edit on 11-2-2010 by Subjective Truth]

Oh, I agree with you.

And my statement was a general one, not directed at you.

it is the knee jerk reaction to those who do not agree with the state of Israel, though.

reply to post by captaintyinknots


It is such a heated topic both sides point fingers and pound there chests and nothing gets accomplished. I wish they could live in peace but I know they cant so I figure they might as well get it over with I know it is a bad viewpoint I just don't see another way.

reply to post by mamabeth


On the news we often here how al-Qaeda 'hates America' and considers it 'the great Satan.' The U.S. government has turned up such stories as 'they attack us because they hate our freedom.' The reality lies a little deeper than that. America has found itself in the middle of a conflict that reaches back arguably to biblical times. Thus the 'democratic' and 'humanitarian' arguments it tries to put forward to solve the situation aren't of much use, to the Arabs or the Israelis. Of course, since 2001 the aggression has increased and, more than just a war, we see something darker going in Afghanistan (and Iraq). Far beyond beating the enemy, clearing out the dead and going home, we see a war based not on ideology (as wars generally are), but a war based on enforcement. It has nothing to do with publicly executing dissidents, but a more passive approach. Buildings of cultural importance are ignored as McDonalds and Burger Kings are built. Democratic elections are enforced, the irony being the US/UK alliance decide who can stand for election in the first place.

Whilst this has probably made some people see the "light" of Western democracy, freedom, peace and so on, it has also given more support to groups like al-Qaeda. This is because intelligent people can see that these Western promises don't hold much promise in the long run. They might have "exciting" new food and fizzy drinks, but these thrills don't last forever. These same intelligent people realise that if they choose this easy path, after they get bored of plastic trinkets everything that they once held dear will have turned to dust and their civilisation is - for all intents and purposes - dead, leaving them to play video games and buy junk they don't need.

Israel is not a perfect nation. It has made many mistakes over the past decade. Nevertheless, they should be commended on their record. Few, if any, nations would handle themselves with the same restraint and dignity Israel has had.

If a few people from Denmark make a silly cartoon, Muslim nations demand sanctions and their citizens threaten violence. If a Sunni in Iraq merely walks into a Shi'ite neighborhood, he can get killed.

Yet, Israel is surrounded by nations whose leaders at various times in history have called for its destruction and the genocide of its people. Palestinian terrorists continually try and murder Israeli citizens, and are sometimes successful. Most other nations would show zero restraint and massacre their enemies, yet Israel has not.

Yet Israel is often accused of showing no restraint by its critics. These critics often fail to point out any alternative course of action other than having Israel commit suicide and let the Arabs do anything they want. It makes you wonder if the Israelis will one day stop trying to appease their critics and truly show no restraint. After all, they are paying the price of showing zero restraint...they might as well reap the benefits.

reply to post by Dock9


I have known for a long time that there will never be any peace
in the middle east.Any peace treaties, that should ever be signed,
would be short lived.Basically,a useless piece of paper,to be tossed
away at the earliest convenience.

reply to post by mamabeth


Oh goodlord. "Chosen"?!?

I'm going to go tell my sister right now that I'm Dads favorite and he loves me above all his other children. And I have proof....I wrote it in my diary....

Love it, support it, and pray for her daily. Now that being said, has ol' Israel always been good, " No " of course not, heck God even punished them himself for their wickedness, turned away from them, and allowed them to be practically destroyed. However, a father discipline's his children when they do wrong, and love's them no less, while disciplining them. Are they any better than the rest of us, " no " certainly not, in fact, if you believe, the bible tell's us, they in the past were the worst of us. The only reason to love and support them is the illogical reason, of belief in the bible, which some people choose not to do. As I said in another thread, we cannot possibly understand the mind of God.

Ladyskadi's comments reflect my own feelings. I neither love nor hate Israel. But i cannot stand it's actions, much like alot of countries in the world including my own. There is a difference.

[edit on 11-2-2010 by Solomons]

ok...here it comes.....read the later sentence before you go! there's political zion and religious zion....the heads of state may be evil muthers...yep.! israel has 12 families and the jews are only one...maybe taken over by edomites(evil muthers). we battle agaist spirits, not flesh. we're in a spiritual war, i swear to ya. i saw on tv a palestinian saying there's religious jews in all the states over there, he said there's jews on the other side of that wall(pointing to gaza). a minority, though. so, i hate the evil doers....love Israel.!....now the last sentence...the U.S. is Manaseh's....just like the crosby stills nash album.....you can read all about us in the bible.....manaseh and efraim....efraim is britain.... we are the Israel that blesses the world....the english speaking peoples give the most to the world.....yes, we're Israel...but the center of the future world is in Jerusalem, as written. so, the U.S. is written into prophecy and can be found in the bible...josephs two sons...Efraim and Manaseh, thus "GI joe" oh, there's much more, the union jack....."great" britain

Originally posted by mamabeth
Why,do you love or hate,the country Israel?If any member has had first hand
experiences with the Israeli government or the jewish people,please tell us.I
want this thread to be a sounding board for all.Let's get all these feelings out in
the open and out of our systems once and for all! I will start...

I love Israel and the jewish people,because they are God's chosen.I don't
care if they return my love with contempt.I try my best to please God.

First off, I hate to burst your bubble but the people who currently occupy the Holy Land are NOT God's chosen people, and by that I mean to say that they are not the descendants of the original Hebrews. Most of the Israelis are of Russian or Croatian descent. Their ancestors were white people who, for whatever reason, decided to abandon their peoples' rightful heritage in favor of converting to Judaism. Over the many long years these folks have put a huge amount of money and effort into convincing the rest of us that they are synonymous with that ancient people, but, the fact remains that the Israelis are not Arabian, they are European by heredity. God did not choose these people. They chose him, and that's a big difference to my mind! I always have to bite my tongue when I'm watching some tv show that features a New Jew and he talks about "My People", like he or she has anything at all in common with the folks that wrote the Torah. They don't, plain and simple, and they are lying to you when they assert that they do.

So, let's get down to the reasons why I really dislike the New Jews. Firstly, as I have already pointed out, I dislike them because they are liars where their true heritage is concerned. They are not the descendants of Saul and Soloman. They are posers to that mantle.

Secondly, they are the only Middle Eastern nation to ever have openly attacked an American vessel. It was the USS Liberty back in 1967. Many of our sailors were murdered by these guys and it was only by a miracle that the boat did not sink into the sea. It was not for lack of trying on the part of the Israelis. Naturally, our government covered up the attack, because we have always kissed Israel's phoney ass since day 1! None other than Admiral McCaine, former prsidential candidate John's dad, personally ordered the crew not to talk about what they suffered that day. Too bad, Admiral, real Americans ARE talking about it now!

Thirdly, they have way too much say in our political process. Nowadays if you want to have any chance at all of holding a major public office, you have to have the AIPAC stamp of approval. This political action committee should be thoroughly investigated, arrested and run out of our country post-haste. They have no interest in what is best for our country. All they want is to see what they take from us for Israel, a country with which we still have yet to sign a treaty with! Why am I expected to funnel billions of my tax dollars to support and possibly even sacrifice the lives of my children as soldiers to defend this odious country who can't even be bothered to sign a treaty of mutual obligation with us?

Which brings us to Big Number Four, the odiousness of Israel. It is a blatantly Aparthied government that has a long and appalling history of enslavement and abuse towards the folks we now call the Palestinians. They were the current inhabitants of Israel when the British made the biggest mistake of the 20th Century and handed the property over to the New Jews. The Palestinians were systematically driven from their homes. Their businesses were seized. Their loved ones were murdered. While their lives under British rule wasn't exactly rosey, under the Israelis it became a living hell.

And you can side with the New Jews all you want, but the fact is that the infamous Palestnian "rocket attacks" are mostly of the home-made bottle rocket type. Many of them fail to detonate upon impact. Those fun-loving New Jews tend to respond to such attacks with armed helicopters that blast whole neighborhoods. and then there's their charming habit of bulldozing Palestinian houses while the occupants are asleep inside cuz they just claimed the property in the name of NewJewLand.

I could fill several threads with a list of Israeli atrocities against the Palestinian people, but the disgusting details are already all over the internet, if you care to read them. So there you have it, a country of murderous, lying, manipulative scum posing as the "Chosen Ones", with no legitimate claim to the title. It's like George W. claiming to be the heir to the English throne! I have saved the final irony for last! A recent book by an Israeli historian actually argues that, contrary to New Jew mythology, when the Roman army finally kicked Israel's ass most of the Hebrews did not flee because they simply had nowhere else to go. In fact, he argues, if you really want to find the true descendants of the people that gave the world the Old Testament, you need to look among the Palestinians because that's where they are! I can just hear Jahweh chuckling over the creepy irony of that one! Hope that answers your question.

reply to post by godless


Just a quick note here, while you may be entirely correct with your point, or may not, depending on where this knowledge comes from, I wish to point out one thing. All knowledge, ancient or contemporary, comes from one of two sources, the written word ( book's ) or the spoken word, which leaves one with the conundrum; who is reading the right book's, or who is listening to the right people, until we have that figured out, and we may never do so, then all else is mere conjecture in regards to this topic, or any other, as it amount's to, which book's do you deem factual, and which spoken word do you sense or believe to be true. The rest is blind opinion, and poppycock, so to speak..... Fact's are fact's only when they are observed in person, otherwise we are just taking someone else's word for it.

Originally posted by freetree64
reply to post by godless

 

Just a quick note here, while you may be entirely correct with your point, or may not, depending on where this knowledge comes from, I wish to point out one thing. All knowledge, ancient or contemporary, comes from one of two sources, the written word ( book's ) or the spoken word, which leaves one with the conundrum; who is reading the right book's, or who is listening to the right people, until we have that figured out, and we may never do so, then all else is mere conjecture in regards to this topic, or any other, as it amount's to, which book's do you deem factual, and which spoken word do you sense or believe to be true. The rest is blind opinion, and poppycock, so to speak..... Fact's are fact's only when they are observed in person, otherwise we are just taking someone else's word for it.

You can verify any and all of the things I have stated as fact on the internet, if you care to. If, instead, you prefer to go on considering Israel as a blessed and holy state who is completely justified in murdering anyone it sees fit to kill, then I guess that is your choice. As for me, I did not agree with apartheid when it was White Guy South Africa calling the shots, and, since I tend to avoid being a hypocrite, I will not justify such measures on the part of the Israeli governemt, simply because they claim to be the remnants of the"Chosen People"! I stand by my statement that their country is neither or ally nor our supporter. They merely seek to gain what they can from us to their benefit and our detriment. If you have any facts that prove otherwise then I invite you to share them. I'd especially be thrilled to read of all of the billions of dollars they have poured into our faltering economy.

reply to post by godless


Now, my version of fact's, to counter your's sir, and this could go on all night.... For my word's state that not only are ancient hebrews all over the world, but may have been involved with the discovery of America....Ha, I say Ha.....See what I mean, oh and yes, this came from said "internet" as well...





www.hope-of-israel.org...

[edit on 11-2-2010 by freetree64]

[edit on 11-2-2010 by freetree64]

[edit on 11-2-2010 by freetree64]

reply to post by godless


I would not go by what you read on the Internet, as it is full of extemists of all kinds spouting all kinds of brainwashed beliefs. I have been to Israel, and driven from the North ( Golan Heights ) to the Dead Sea. I passed plenty of towns that I was told were Arab towns that got along in Israel just fine. I ate in an Arab restaurant in Jerusalem and again no problem. Many people told me all over Israel that it is just the fanatical people causing problems. One time we could not drive in one area because Palestinian terrorists had started shooting at vehicles on the highway.
In 1948 when Israel declared independence, the Arabs were not forced out. Many chose to leave, and many listened to religious leaders in Syria and other places who told them the Jews would be put down and then they could come back and take over what the Israelis had built out of the desert. More than once that country has been attacked and had to defend itself. The Muslims who left were put into camps in other countries, and not allowed to become citizens. Today Egypt has built a wall to keep the Palestinians out of Egypt. If they are such wonderful people, then why were they not allowed to become citizens of other Arab countries? Why does Egypt try to keep them out of their country? I can say the Lebanese sure regretted the Palestians who came in, and so too did the Jordanians.
Do I sound like I like Israel? Yes I do. I commend them for reclaiming a home they lived in thousands of years ago. I commend them for making a dead language, Hebrew. a living language again. I commend them for building a thriving industrial and agricultural country out of desert. I commend them for trying to live, and enjoy life even in the midst of terrorist attacks.
The Israelis went into Ethiopia to rescue people and brought them to Israel. They allow immigration into Israel.The government was willing to give all that Arafat wanted, except Jerusalem. He refused.
Did you know that Israel was the first to set up and have hospital facilities in Haiti after the earthquake?
I say about Israel, good for them! Keep fighting the good fight against a group of muleheaded, stubborn, blind idiots who do not mind killing their children, their future, by encouraging them to blow themselves up. What warped values to feel good about children and women bombing themselves to death. To feel good about blowing up strangers just because they do not believe in their version of Islam and Allah. They should wall themselves off and live in the 3d century if that is what they want. Just leave the rest of us alone.

jews are ok, they're human

but zionist are a bunch of mentally sick lucefrians who dedicate their lives serving satan and corrupting the world we live in...

I support Israel and I believe they have a right to exist. I believe that they have a right to the land they occupy, both historically and religiously. Israel has stood by us on numerous occassions, has been a staunch ally in the Middle East, and even now; aides the US in its war against terrorism around the world. As a Christian, I believe that those that curse Israel will be cursed, those that bless Israel will be blessed.
There are those that decry the religious aspect of Israel's existence.. but most don't believe in a God anyway, so they can't understand that aspect. Others point out the "crimes" of Israel, and that the civilized world should reject Israel...the civilized world, hmmm.
Is this the civilized world made up of Germany...along with it's civilized history of National Socialist? Maybe China or Russia...yes, very civilized Communist/Marxist past. Maybe the Muslim countries... where women can prance around in Burkhas and be stoned to death for talking to a man or you could lose your head over rock-n-roll. How about those Japanese..civilized there...just ask Nanking circa 1939-40. Even to be rejected by the civilized ol'USA... home of internment camps for the "Japs" and slavery.
See, Israel is not perfect...no country is. But in the real world, the enemy of my enemy is my friend... and Israelis are good friends to the USA, and we better try to keep them.
Do you really think the Jihadists will cease attacks against the US if Israel is destroyed or ceases to exist?

reply to post by RizeorDie


Jews are OK? I am glad to see there is no hate I understand well thought out arguments against Israel and I agree with most of them. But like I have said many times before I think alot of the whole anti-Israel propaganda is really anti-Jew propaganda. I could be wrong but I really don't think I am.

Take a look at this post is it anti-Jew? take away Jew and insert black or Mexican.

Originally posted by mamabeth
Israel,love it or hate it?

What if I HATE ISRAEL FROM THE BOTTOM OF MY HEART but can't publicly say so because I could be taken to jail for being anti-Semetic -even though I'm a Semite myself-???

Does it really make a difference?

Kind of an odd question, since either answer is a totality.

First, I find the origins of Israel to be very strange and quite racist. The whole idea of it, to me, stinks of Europeans finding a new way to get as many Jews out of Europe as they could. The Partition plan was also clearly racist, taking the best land and the land with the most economic potential and giving it to a tiny percent of the area's population, and leaving the rest to the Arabs who had lived there for nearly two thousand years.

I can't blame the Arabs for not signing on to this plan, and I find it very odd that Peru got a say in what happened to Palestine, but Palestinians - Arabs, Jews, Christians, whoever - did not.

Israel has soiled its own hands greatly since then. I can't hold any blame for it defending itself in the 1948 war - but I can blame Israel for violating international law by exterminating or expelling all the non-Jews they could find, and then illegally annexing territory during that war. Letting Israel keep its 1948 land gains is just as ludicrous as if Germany had been allowed to retain its Polish and French acquisitions.

Since then Israel and its neighbors have launched back-and-forths. Israel launched two sneak attacks on Egypt - one in 1957, another ten years later, then Egypt responded with its own sneak attack in 1973. Israel bombed Iraq, then Iraq missiled Egypt. ironically, Israel was Khomeini's best friend in the 80's, and today the Israelis are talking about nuking Iran.

Through all this, the biggest losers have been the Palestinians. When Saddam launched his scud missiles at Tel Aviv, Israel did not respond to Iraq's aggression - instead it took it out on the Arabs within its own borders, arresting and detaining thousands as "collaborators", destroying their homes, and subjecting hte popoulation to strict and ludicrous restrictions.

Today, I do not blame Israel for being worried about its security... but nor can I blame the Palestinians for being seriously pissed off at Israel.

In my ethical standard, it is Israel who shouldbe making all the concessions, if they want peace. Why? Well, for starters, you can't negotiate with something that doesn't belong to you. Not only that, but becuase they're the only ones who have anything left to concede, because they are the ones who are capable of obliterating their opponent, and good-faith concessions would be a fine step for peace.

Unfortunately Israel is currently ruled by those who, like many in this thread, think that Jews are religiously, ethnically, and morally superior to all other human beings on the face of the earth, god's "chosen people." Call them zionists, or likudniks, whatever you want to. But these are the most antisemitic bastards you will ever find. From the Palestinian side, hamas and its ilk are impediments to peace - but even they have shown a willingness to work with "The Hated enemy" if they see a good chance to settle the issue. Countless Israeli people want the same. However these cultists, these twisted asshats, refuse to do any such thing, and continue their racist, aggressive policy, which in the end run, only makes Israel LESS secure, puts MORE Israelis in danger, and does more economic HARM to Israel than good.

If anyone thinks i'm crazy for calling the leaders of Israel antisemites, I would appreciate if you could give me another term for people who knowingly and willingly put uncountable Jewish lives at stake for the sake of an election, who constantly try to keep a Jewish nation in a state of fear and tension, and who's actions constantly defame the character of jews the world over. Because I think "antisemite" is a pretty good word for such people.

[edit on 12-2-2010 by TheWalkingFox]

Race or country means nothing. I "judge" one man at a time.
Or rather I should say - we will judge ourselves when the time comes. We get what we give. No more - no less.

Peace