36% of Americans have a positive view of socialism

reply to post by Someone336


First of all, I would not trust the sources you provided.

Second the USA itself had a large communist following pre-ww2 and it wasn't until the McCarthy era that both socialism and communism were demonised.

Third you confused communism with socialism when you said "workers control means of production". That is mainly true with communism and to a lesser extent with socialism.

As for castro and stalin people will have a diversified opinion of them depending on your political views. IMO Stalin was a paranoid lunatic, much worst than hitler!

reply to post by Jenadots


Just because the american government is buying banks and GM does not make it socialism. The government ITSELF is a CORPORATION according to THE ACT OF 1871 so that tells me we got CORPORATISM masquerading as "socialism".

Corporatism is synonymous with ultra-capitalism and with monopoly capitalism. I hear people say we never had real capitalism but that is a false statement. Unfettered capitalism will always lead to corporatism because some companies either by luck, good management, bribes, whatever have you will eventually rise above the others and monopolise any given sector. It's inevitable!!!

So the question becomes is it better to have 1)private monopolies 2)public monopolies. The first is naturally occuring while the second is artificial. I prefer the second because a public monopoly means I own shares without really buying any.

1) I support Socialism. So what it's just an idea.
2) Our government is Socialist. Wait who controls the public education system?
3) Don't confuse Communism with Socialism. Communism is an extreme form of Socialism. We live in a moderate form of Socialism.
4) 60% of the people polled didn't actually know what Socialism was they just thought it was Communism.

Originally posted by Someone336
reply to post by EarthCitizen07

 

State Socialism=Communism, just like Ultra Capitalism=Corporatism

Communism = an unattainable philosophical construct

State Socialism = the USSR, pre-1980s China, etc

Corporatism = Crony Capitalism + Lemon Socialism

Socialism = the workers owning the means of production

However I disagree with the assumption that the Rockefellers or Rothschilds owned anything prior to the collapse of the Soviet Union. I think you are making a big mistake here!

Wall Street and their backers in the Rockefeller and Rothschild family, not to mention Wall Street backed US government officials, made it possible for the Bolshevik revolution to occur.

Wall Street and the Bolshevik Revolution by Antony Sutton

It's a clear cut case of proto-Disaster Capitalism, which is the use of - intentional or unintentional - crises. The plutocracy cares not for ideology, but for money. This is why we have Lemon Socialism, the ultimate source of control: keep the masses feeding on the capitalist lie when it is a socialist-like program for the rich that is keeping their staggering giants afloat. Crony Capitalism allows Lemon Socialism to happen.

Thank you for the link: Wall Street and the Bolshevik Revolution by Antony Sutton - I've read it once before some time ago, but it was very interesting to read it again! THANK YOU!

Anyone interested about true history should read the evidences and the documents which show how utterly decieved people have been regarding the true intentions about the 1917 revolution - Soviet Union and The Marburg Plan.

An excerpt from Chapter XI - THE EVIDENCE PRESENTED: A SYNOPSIS:

THE EXPLANATION FOR THE UNHOLY ALLIANCE

What motive explains this coalition of capitalists and Bolsheviks?

Russia was then — and is today — the largest untapped market in the world. Moreover, Russia, then and now, constituted the greatest potential competitive threat to American industrial and financial supremacy. (A glance at a world map is sufficient to spotlight the geographical difference between the vast land mass of Russia and the smaller United States.) Wall Street must have cold shivers when it visualizes Russia as a second super American industrial giant.

But why allow Russia to become a competitor and a challenge to U.S. supremacy? In the late nineteenth century, Morgan/Rockefeller, and Guggenheim had demonstrated their monopolistic proclivities. In Railroads and Regulation 1877-1916 Gabriel Kolko has demonstrated how the railroad owners, not the farmers, wanted state control of railroads in order to preserve their monopoly and abolish competition. So the simplest explanation of our evidence is that a syndicate of Wall Street financiers enlarged their monopoly ambitions and broadened horizons on a global scale. The gigantic Russian market was to be converted into a captive market and a technical colony to be exploited by a few high-powered American financiers and the corporations under their control. What the Interstate Commerce Commission and the Federal Trade Commission under the thumb of American industry could achieve for that industry at home, a planned socialist government could achieve for it abroad — given suitable support and inducements from Wall Street and Washington, D.C.
---
This, therefore, is an explanation that fits the evidence. This handful of bankers and promoters was not Bolshevik, or Communist, or socialist, or Democrat, or even American. Above all else these men wanted markets, preferably captive international markets — and a monopoly of the captive world market as the ultimate goal. They wanted markets that could be exploited monopolistically without fear of competition from Russians, Germans, or anyone else — including American businessmen outside the charmed circle. This closed group was apolitical and amoral. In 1917, it had a single-minded objective — a captive market in Russia, all presented under, and intellectually protected by, the shelter of a league to enforce the peace.
---
Wall Street did indeed achieve its goal. American firms controlled by this syndicate were later to go on and build the Soviet Union, and today are well on their way to bringing the Soviet military-industrial complex into the age of the computer.
---
Is there any evidence that this magnificently sweeping objective was also known to Congress and the academic world? Certainly the possibility was known and known publicly. For example, witness the testimony of Albert Rhys Williams, an astute commentator on the revolution, before the Senate Overman Committee:

. . . it is probably true that under the soviet government industrial life will perhaps be much slower in development than under the usual capitalistic system. But why should a great industrial country like America desire the creation and consequent competition of another great industrial rival? Are not the interests of America in this regard in line with the slow tempo of development which soviet Russia projects for herself?

Senator Wolcott: Then your argument is that it would be to the interest of America to have Russia repressed?

MR. WILLIAMS: Not repressed ....

SENATOR WOLCOTT: You say. Why should America desire Russia to become an industrial competitor with her?

MR. WILLIAMS: This is speaking from a capitalistic standpoint. The whole interest of America is not, I think, to have another great industrial rival, like Germany, England, France, and Italy, thrown on the market in competition. I think another government over there besides the Soviet government would perhaps increase the tempo or rate of development of Russia, and we would have another rival. Of course, this is arguing from a capitalistic standpoint.

SENATOR WOLCOTT: So you are presenting an argument here which you think might appeal to the American people, your point being this, that if we recognize the Soviet government of Russia as it is constituted we will be recognizing a government that can not compete with us in industry for a great many years?

MR. WILLIAMS: That is a fact.

SENATOR WOLCOTT: That is an argument that under the Soviet government Russia is in no position, for a great many years at least, to approach America industrially?

MR. WILLIAMS: Absolutely.17

And in that forthright statement by Albert Rhys Williams is the basic clue to the revisionist interpretation of Russian history over the past half century.

Wall Street, or rather the Morgan-Rockefeller complex represented at 120 Broadway and 14 Wall Street, had something very close to Williams' argument in mind. Wall Street went to bat in Washington for the Bolsheviks. It succeeded. The Soviet totalitarian regime survived. In the 1930s foreign firms, mostly of the Morgan-Rockefeller group, built the five-year plans. They have continued to build Russia, economically and militarily.18 On the other hand, Wall Street presumably did not foresee the Korean War and the Vietnam War — in which 100,000 Americans and countless allies lost their lives to Soviet armaments built with this same imported U.S. technology. What seemed a farsighted, and undoubtedly profitable, policy for a Wall Street syndicate, became a nightmare for millions outside the elitist power circle and the ruling class.

WALL STREET AND THE BOLSHEVIK REVOLUTION - By Antony C. Sutton

Chapter XI


[edit on 8-2-2010 by Chevalerous]

Originally posted by EarthCitizen07
reply to post by carslake

 

Care to give a time reference and a source?

I feel like being pedantic. If only I could make the effort.

Under communism(state socialism)EVERYTHING was state owned and that is why the NWO had to trick the populace into accepting capitalism and all its "great opportunities".

I dont think state socialism is communism. Well not to a political scientist its not.

If you lived in europe you would know that even in socialist countries anything that was state owned had to be sold or NO EU membership! All the airlines, railroads, shipping, water supply&management, electricity, telephone etc used to be government run operations. The reasons they gave were: "too much wasteful spending", "coruption", "overstaffing", and "inefficiency". While not exactly false, they failed to explain that governments THEMSELVES ran all these operations into the ground INTENTIONALLY so they could THEN sell them at a huge discount. The politicians got paid under the table hefty money and all was sent to offshore non-traceable bank accounts.

Hold on I do live in Europe, and no that isn't true about things being sold off so we could be in the EU. France didnt do this, neither did Spain.
Your making this up as you go along. Privatisation happened in the UK because of political corruption I agree, it was not because it was a pre-requisite of membership of the EU. The UK sold everything off because of political corruption under the conservative government. While at the same time France, Spain and Germany were enforcing protectionism for their major industries, and France and Germany are the prime movers in the EU. Your conclusion doesn't fit the facts.

The EU was an NWO precursor to the now proposed NAU, SAU, ASEAN, and African Union. No country will be spared in the pillage to gather all the resources into those few illuminati hands. It might not all happen this decade, but it will happen quickly unless people wise up. I doubt people will wise up because mainstream media is pumping DISINFO 24/7 and they are doing "a great job". Even alernative sites such as ATS are getting infiltrated to the point of becoming mainstream!

Yeah thats sounds about right, dont know about ATS being infiltrated. We're here arguing about something, and were on the same side. So who are the infiltrators very few of the established ATS members are, those that are completely partisan, to the point of looking brain washed appear like that, although there just blinkered and state their line because they cant raise their eyes and look up so to speak, there not infiltrators.

reply to post by EarthCitizen07

First of all, I would not trust the sources you provided.

Why not? Naomi Klein is extremely anti-corporate, hell, No Logo was the anti-corporate manifesto of what was once an emerging alternative left wing movement. It would have caused serious problems if 9/11 hadn't happened and derailed free thought into a chest-pounding defense of the idea that supporting capitalism/corporatism is synonymous with patriotism.

Antony Sutton, on the other hand, is pretty conservative. He believes that the banking elite is attempting to implement a socialist (read: left wing totalitarianism) dominion over the whole world, which I believe is hogwash. However, his facts are meticulously documented and easily verifiable. I too was skeptical, but fact checking revealed a different story. It's simply that his conclusion was a bit off.

Second the USA itself had a large communist following pre-ww2 and it wasn't until the McCarthy era that both socialism and communism were demonised.

Oh, I know. The rapidly evolving capitalist elite realized the growing threat that labor movements posed and thus the corporate-run media began the smear campaign that has imprinted Americans with the notion that left-wing worker movements = gulags, starvation and slavery. This took an imperialistic bent as the Cold War progressed with the proxy wars we fought against the very idea of "Communism" in Afghanistan and Latin America. Hey, thanks CIA for sowing the seeds of so many of the world's problems by being a private Wall Street army!

I agree with you that corporatism is the natural progression of capitalism. It just needs a dab of Crony Capitalism with a Lemon Socialism twist to get there.

Third you confused communism with socialism when you said "workers control means of production". That is mainly true with communism and to a lesser extent with socialism.

I think it is you who are confusing the terms. Socialism predates the idea of Communism, and was developed as a reaction to the strict and oppressive hierarchical system brought on by the Industrial Revolution. For so long people had lived communally, reaping directly the benefits of their labor. This was what the original socialists sought to achieve: freedom from the squalor and tyrannical bent of the Industrial Age and a combination of the communes of yesteryear with the factory. This would mean that the workers would own and benefit directly from the fruits of their labor. That is what original socialism is, nothing more, nothing less.

The definition of socialism that you are thinking of is the Marxist interpretation, and it causes much confusion. Marx used "socialism" to refer to a hypothetical intermediary stage between the capitalist dominated world and Communism, which is simply original socialism with a heaping of politics along with it. Marx's socialist system would be that the state would run and regulate all industry as the post-revolutionary world would become organized. However, what people commonly overlook is that this stage is also referred to as the "Dictatorship of the Proletariat", indicating that
the "State" in this phase is not the government as we know it, but a new state that is run by the working-class.

As for castro and stalin people will have a diversified opinion of them depending on your political views. IMO Stalin was a paranoid lunatic, much worst than hitler!

I agree with you there. But watch out, soon we'll get those loons over here telling us that Hitler was a lefty. And they complain about us pinkos trying to rewrite history
.

reply to post by Chevalerous

Thank you for the link: Wall Street and the Bolshevik Revolution by Antony Sutton - I've read it once before some time ago, but it was very interesting to read it again! THANK YOU!

Anyone one interested about true history should read the evidences and the documents which show how utterly decieved people have been regarding the true intentions about the 1917 revolution - Soviet Union and The Marburg Plan.

Hey, no problem! I love that book, despite it's dry writing style and my issues with the ultimate conclusion. It should be on the reading list of every ATSer, alongside Sutton's Wall Street and the Rise of Hitler, Eustace Mullin's Secrets of the Federal Reserve and Carrol Quigley's Tragedy and Hope (PDF). Perhaps after reading these people wouldn't be so quick to defend a system that is obviously taking advantage and exploiting us.

What amazes me is how totally ignorant so many of you are of the differences between the different political/economic and social constructs.

None of them...capitalism...socialism or communism are absolute ideologies. Every nation interprets them in different ways...Japanese capitalism is as different from American capitalism as is British socialism is from say Danish socialism and both are vastly different from communism.

You guys throw these terms around cavalierly with no real understanding...

but then again average Americans are profoundly ignorant of the world outside our borders... much to the nations detriment... the only things we as a people are more ignorant about is science and other peoples religions.

[edit on 9-2-2010 by iMacFanatic]

That means 36% of american's are clueless morons, perhaps the survey was also targeted mostly at 14 year old idiots who had really poofy spikey hair and were experts on what "emo" means.

The thing about Caroll Quigley's tragedy and hope is that it isn't conspiracy trash. It as a real work of history made by an eminent historian. The funny thing is that nobody who has ever read the book would ever claim that it entails "proofs of a conspiracy". That only works when you quote mine one of the 1000+ pages of the book. What Quigley did was describe the Anglo American establishment since he personally was very close to some of it's main players-

I think the notion that this books is proof of a consiracy stems from Murray Rothbard and speaks for his poor reading comprehension. What Qugley did was actually explain how McCarthy got the idea of "communist infiltrators" - a simple misintepretation of the political outlook of the East Coast Elitist Liberals.

But of course Murray wouldn't know that as he's never read the whole of the book.
Please stop citing "Tragedy and Hope" as proof of some kind of conspiracy. It is a history book about the first half of the 20th century.

Originally posted by carslake

Originally posted by EarthCitizen07
reply to post by carslake

 

Care to give a time reference and a source?

I feel like being pedantic. If only I could make the effort.

You can't make the effort because you don't know what you are talking about. Plain and simple! As for your location profile being "world of spin" I find that quite telling of a dishonest person.

Originally posted by carslake
I dont think state socialism is communism. Well not to a political scientist its not.

Again you don't know what your talking about. State socialism IS communism!

Originally posted by carslake
Hold on I do live in Europe, and no that isn't true about things being sold off so we could be in the EU. France didnt do this, neither did Spain.
Your making this up as you go along. Privatisation happened in the UK because of political corruption I agree, it was not because it was a pre-requisite of membership of the EU. The UK sold everything off because of political corruption under the conservative government. While at the same time France, Spain and Germany were enforcing protectionism for their major industries, and France and Germany are the prime movers in the EU. Your conclusion doesn't fit the facts.

Absolute hogwash!

Everything, or almost everything, that was state owned had to be sold if a member country wanted to join the EU. As an american living in greece I can tell you there were was a lot of friction between labor unions and government because of that.

Its not just corruption as you plainly put it, its a whole #ing conspiracy aimed at denationalising everything to private hands, namely european corporations. Why do you think millions of people turn out to protest WTO meetings throughout the world? Because they have nothing better to do?

The WTO is a corporatists wet dream come true.

Originally posted by carslake
Yeah thats sounds about right, dont know about ATS being infiltrated. We're here arguing about something, and were on the same side. So who are the infiltrators very few of the established ATS members are, those that are completely partisan, to the point of looking brain washed appear like that, although there just blinkered and state their line because they cant raise their eyes and look up so to speak, there not infiltrators.

Whatever dude! Every alternative site with a membership of 100 people or more has been infiltrated regardless what you think. I have been a member on ATS since 2006 and every week, month, year that goes by it is becoming more and more mainstream.

I used to post on the 9-11, ufo board and area 51 but after a year of hitting my head against the wall I gave up and now focus on politics.

reply to post by EarthCitizen07


With you definitions, it will be next to impossible to distinguish Western European Democratic Republics that implement Socialism (just as the US does) from authoritarian-communist regimes. If state Socialism is Communism, then Europe, Japan and America are communist countries.

That's why the implementation of Socialist policies by democratic republics is normally distinguished from an authoritarian approach to absolute state control as it was done by the "Soviets".

It might help to define the designation(Socialist, Communst, Democratic, etc.) for each statement made in terms of either Economics, Welfare, Labor Relations, Basic rights etc..

It helps circumventing the confusions.

I live in a democratic Republic whose main policies have been Socialist for about 90 years now. There's hardly anything this far from communism, allthough it is called "Socialism".

It's always good to pay attention to the evolution and off-branching these terms go through.

I hope this helped.

(It won't, but that's ok)

[edit on 9-2-2010 by NichirasuKenshin]

Originally posted by NichirasuKenshin
reply to post by EarthCitizen07

 

With you definitions, it will be next to impossible to distinguish Western European Democratic Republics that implement Socialism (just as the US does) from authoritarian-communist regimes. If state Socialism is Communism, then Europe, Japan and America are communist countries.

I don't know about japan but I do know about america and europe.

America is a capitalist republic while europe is a socialist democracy.

Russia and china used to be state socialists, now they are authoritarian capitalists.

Originally posted by NichirasuKenshin
It might help to define the designation(Socialist, Communst, Democratic, etc.) for each statement made in terms of either Economics, Welfare, Labor Relations, Basic rights etc..

It helps circumventing the confusions.

I agree but pinning the exact name isn't always easy for the reasons you mentioned.

reply to post by EarthCitizen07


To your second part. Absolutely right. I couldn't agree more. That's why it's almost all the more important to be precise with what one is actually designating. Oh, the confusion! It's quite funny at times.

To your first part:

It's hard to make those disticntions. Europe is not a nation like America is, at least not yet. Strong arguments have been made the the EU will for many reasons never be able to forment such a strong Union like the US did.

When you don't count the EU as one country, you'll see what I mean. Western EU countries like France, Germany, Spain and the like are very much capitalistic republics like America. But America and Western Europe are also similiar in the forms of Socialism they implement:

They both have state-regulated markets, it's the extent that differs.
They both are welfare states; allthough the amount and extent of welfare programs is usually larger in the EU.
They both have progressive taxes and central banks; allthough they differ in how they use them exactly. (Remember that the idea of a central bank is Marxist in origin, as absurd as this sounds in a modern context). While the idea of a progressive income tax is the Hallmark of the early populist Liberalism (as opposed to classic Liberalism).

The difference being that in Europe the Socialist label is still in use, since it was never succesfully conflated with Communism and thus never made a rhetorical taboo like in America. ( A place where even Democrats won't label Welfare as something Socialist in nature for the most part).

The point being that in merely being a Socialist, you are in no way opposing yourself to the political outlook of the Republic of The United States and its democratic governing principles.

While a communist must by definition be opposed to the republic as well as to the democratic principles, at least in the sense that "communism" is used most often today (meaning a system of governance that ideologically and practically runs along the lines of the UdSSR - even though the UdSSR didn't call itself "Communist" that often and the word "Communist" itself, as legend has it, was the term proposed to Lenin by an American millionaire.)



[edit on 9-2-2010 by NichirasuKenshin]

[edit on 9-2-2010 by NichirasuKenshin]

Originally posted by EarthCitizen07

Originally posted by carslake

 

I feel like being pedantic. If only I could make the effort.

You can't make the effort because you don't know what you are talking about. Plain and simple! As for your location profile being "world of spin" I find that quite telling of a dishonest person.

No I can't be bothered to dig out the quote from this book The House of Rothschild by Dr Niall Ferguson because as a person I can tell your not worth it and if I was to present you with the facts it wouldn't mean anything to a raving fundamentalist.

And when I wrote 'world of spin' I was drunk and my world was spinning, its not now though.

Originally posted by carslake

I dont think state socialism is communism. Well not to a political scientist its not.

Again you don't know what your talking about. State socialism IS communism!

Then why did they create a different name for it, did you not notice thats how we tell things apart because we call them different things.

Originally posted by carslake

Hold on I do live in Europe, and no that isn't true about things being sold off so we could be in the EU. France didnt do this, neither did Spain.
Your making this up as you go along. Privatisation happened in the UK because of political corruption I agree, it was not because it was a pre-requisite of membership of the EU. The UK sold everything off because of political corruption under the conservative government. While at the same time France, Spain and Germany were enforcing protectionism for their major industries, and France and Germany are the prime movers in the EU. Your conclusion doesn't fit the facts.

Absolute hogwash!

Everything, or almost everything, that was state owned had to be sold if a member country wanted to join the EU. As an american living in greece I can tell you there were was a lot of friction between labor unions and government because of that.

Its not just corruption as you plainly put it, its a whole #ing conspiracy aimed at denationalising everything to private hands, namely european corporations. Why do you think millions of people turn out to protest WTO meetings throughout the world? Because they have nothing better to do?

Then why are Airbus and SNCF all state owned concerns in France.
As an American living in Greece your an illegal immigrant and if you aren't you should be, go back to where you come from and make the best of it. And if your Greek American then go with the Greek mentality and learn not to give a #.
The conspiracy results in corruption stop missing out the detail thats all I'm concerned about, you want to show people the conclusion while distorting the method. Your against mentalities that accept convenient facts that fit in with their way of thinking, we discuss partisanship as being detrimental and your a protagonist of it. If those people you oppose are neo-cons then your a neo-socialist, dont ever accept the facts anyone gives you, find out for yourself, and if you can't stop wasting time on things you can't be exact about.

The WTO is a corporatists wet dream come true.

Yes it is.

Originally posted by carslake

Yeah thats sounds about right, dont know about ATS being infiltrated. We're here arguing about something, and were on the same side. So who are the infiltrators very few of the established ATS members are, those that are completely partisan, to the point of looking brain washed appear like that, although there just blinkered and state their line because they cant raise their eyes and look up so to speak, there not infiltrators.

Whatever dude! Every alternative site with a membership of 100 people or more has been infiltrated regardless what you think. I have been a member on ATS since 2006 and every week, month, year that goes by it is becoming more and more mainstream.

I used to post on the 9-11, ufo board and area 51 but after a year of hitting my head against the wall I gave up and now focus on politics.

We aren't dudes! were all grown up. Hey dude have you thought about giving up ATS and going surfing permanently.
Its mainstream because there is more to ATS than conspiracy. Since when did becoming mainstream bring about infiltration from NWO secret agencies.
I think you need to focus more on politics and also economics and social sciences. And please don't hit your head against a wall its having a very bad effect on you. Anyone would think you were angry or annoyed at the least. Hey we have something in common we're now annoying one another.

reply to post by NichirasuKenshin


Good points!

I was in a bit of a hurry last time and did not elaborate my thoughts properly. You covered everything quite well, probably better than I could.

One correction on my part though is that western europe no longer is a socialist democracy as once was, despite the fact many people continue to use the same label. As I said to a previous poster who lives in europe but cannot understand what is going on, every country had to sell off assets to private hands, mostly corporations in order to join the EU and the EURO currency. This is fact, not theory!

That by itself means western europe has let go of socialism and adopted capitalism. The new name should be *capitalist democracy*!

As for russia and china they were indeed communist nations but each used a different euphemism to convey communism. In the case of russia it was Union of Soviet "Socialist" Republics and in the case of china it was "The Peoples Republic" of China. Kind of silly if you ask me, but if socialism was a "dirty word" one can only imagine how "dirty" communism was. Then we had super-macho stalin putting the final nail on the coffin of communism, much like hitler put the final nail on the coffin of socialism.

Did bush/cheney put the final nail on the coffin of capitalism? Sure seems like it, but die-hard conservatives will never admit it!

[edit on 9-2-2010 by EarthCitizen07]

Originally posted by carslake
No I can't be bothered to dig out the quote from this book The House of Rothschild by Dr Niall Ferguson because as a person I can tell your not worth it and if I was to present you with the facts it wouldn't mean anything to a raving fundamentalist.

We all know the famous "Allow me to control the money and I care not who makes the laws". There have been various deviations to this alleged quote. So hard to dig it up.

And I find it sad that you jump to conclusions without even knowing me.

[edit on 9-2-2010 by EarthCitizen07]

reply to post by EarthCitizen07


Well I apologise EarthCitizen07, alot of crap gets thrown around when the subject is so emotive.

Either way we are on the same side, we know we have stand up for ourselves and one another. We all get to define socialism for me its about giving a damn about each other, personally I dont care if I'm financially less well off or my tax doesnt go as far.

Interestingly enough the reaction by some Americans for creating a national health care system was many things although they mainly revolved around stupidity.
After some discussion amongst my peers we came up with a solution to this problem and it is the public denegration of whole idea of national health care for the American people. Once the American public has understood it wont happen launch a new scheme called National Health Insurance run by the government however its mandatory for everyone to use the service.
In fact its just the same scheme we just change the name of it, the American people will get better health care for less cost without them thinking the state is taking over because its got insurance in the name we just dont tell them that theres no profit made off the back of peoples misery FFS!
Now there obviously will be alot of whining still so to shut people up, you offer to spite the whole of the USA and remove other 'socialist schemes' such as free education and emergency services and then tell them to sort there own # out.

reply to post by carslake


Thanks for the apology. Sometimes it goes a long way.

Tell me do you believe in an NWO(right wing) conspiracy to take over all earths natural resources? By the tone in all your posts I would assume probably not and that is where both liberals and conservatives get it wrong.

There is no way the NWO can be left-leaning, because by its very nature it is elitist orientated. I would not have a problem with elitism if these people minded their own business, but since they assume god gave them the right to decide humanitys' fate then that means most people should have a problem with them, even the rich!

The purpose of taxation is so government can have funds to run any given country such as: the military; education; transportation; build bridges, highways, tunnels, airports, etc; pay for the police and fire department; maintaince costs associated with everything. That is a noble cause and something everyone should respect. Wether we live in a communist, socialist, capitalist, monarchy or dictatorial nation the basics are the same.

In america for some reason, perhaps because of its puritan background, some people hate government and think its somehow evil. They want a "small" government without even defining what small means. Some people even go as far as to denounce their american citizenship and claim their own sovereignty as though they are a country. That is so perposterous that it totally defies belief! These people should ask themselves do we want to live in an organised society governed by rules& laws or is it "each person for their self" much like animals in a jungle. I am quite certain humans are better than animals and need to learn to respect each other.

As for the amerian government I think there is a lot of money being spent on unneccesary projects, especially within the military-industrial complex. There are countless black projects, where even mentioning the name is a serious breach of duty and punished by fines, jail or even death. As a taxpayer I would hate contributing my hard earned money to the cia, nsa and pentagon without knowing what is going on behind the scenes. I have read "outrageous" articles where insiders claim ET technology is being disseminated, secret fema camps being built for uncompromising protestors, deep underground bases for the elite to take refuge during a major crisis and alternative 3 scenarios being implemented somewhere within our solar system. Even if all of what I mentioned was crap, we still have well documented cases of the cia covertly funding right-wing dictatorships and/or otherwise destabilizing areas of the world which it deems "necessary". Necessary for who? For the people or for the elite? Probably the second!

Britain and other european countries are not exactly saints either, especially considering imperialism was a european invention which america and russia later followed. I do think that behind the scenes the elite control all of these so called developed nations and while many people may live in better conditions than people in africa, all this prosperity is nothing more than bread crumbs to satisfy our dellusional well-being and keep us silent. Entairtainment is the weapon of choice.

The biggest conspiracy of all, IMHO, is that "the illuminati" has hijacked all financial systems and turned them into profit-oriented businesses. If you go back to early america, pre-1917(I think) you will find out that the american government delegated its issuing authority to the "semi"-private Federal Reserve Bank of America. That means the american government and the people have to borrow funds at any given interest rate. In essence everyone is buying money from the Federal Reserve and the Federal Reserve always makes a profit. That is FAR from fair my friend.

The European Central Bank as most other central banks I suspect, work on the same principle. They lend money and we pay interest on the principle. Its a grand pyramid scheme that very few people seem to understand. This IMO is the root of all evil. If your a capitalist and especially a banker it makes perfect financial sense to cause one bankruptcy after another(such as with argentina) so that the elite can then "reposess" any worthwhile assets, keep instigating wars behind the scenes while the UN promisses peace negotiations, cause as many viral outbreaks as possible so that pharmaceutical companies can sell tainted medicine which never really cures anything but the symptoms, cause as many financial bubbles as possible so that smart investors make money while all the suckers lose their furtune, and probably many more conspiracies which are not even fathomable.

Capitalism is not the answer because it will always lead to corporate monopolies dominating any given financial sector. Authoritarian communism is not the answer either because it is based on the false assumption that everyone is equal and because it severly limits everyones' liberty in the process. Communism which I believe was not tainted by "the illuminati", but of course I could be wrong, did have some redeeming values such as guaranteed housing, guaranteed job, guaranteed vacation, guaranteed medical care, guaranteed retirement funds and even a payed-by-the state funeral. How much more can an average fellow ask for, especially when you consider how many people in america are on welfare and the bumbs living on the street. Some far-right conservatives falsely assumed that communism encouraged laziness because there was no greed factor involved as with capitalism and to a lesser extent with socialism. They didn't realise that if you didn't show up for work when you were supposed to and failed to have a decent excuse you would be imprissoned. In other words everyone was suppossed to at least carry their own weight in theory. The key terms were "in theory" because there was a lot of overlooking taking place if you had the right connections and were popular.

Socialism, a capitalist-communist hybrid system, IMO is the way to go but we need honest people at the helm. People that look after people and get paid a reasonable amount to do so. If you are corrupt then you need to go home and never get involved with politics again. We the people need to stop being ignorant and indifferent and actually care enough to provide all the necessary "checks and balances" when things start getting out of hand. If you think of the french and russian revolutions that is exactly what happened. Government is not the "be all, end all". Its simply a temporary overseer and how long it lasts is up to both the people and the officials in office. If they feel they can do whatever they want and not have to answer questions then that is the decadence that will bring down a civilization.

I "fear" we are currently watching the beginning of this process unfold before our very eyes and in many, many countries. Hopefully we will learn important lessons and not repeat the same mistakes if you humanity is granted a second chance. I do not know what will happen in 2012, but it seems *that something* is almost inevitable.

[edit on 10-2-2010 by EarthCitizen07]

reply to post by EarthCitizen07

Tell me do you believe in an NWO(right wing) conspiracy to take over all earths natural resources? By the tone in all your posts I would assume probably not and that is where both liberals and conservatives get it wrong.

No it is not just a right wing conspiracy IMO I believe that what we call the NWO is brought about by individuals who exert power because of socialistic altruism and/or capitalistic greed they compete and then aid each other, and then over night reform in a different guise to bring about their aim, control.
There is no school for globalism, there is no politics as we know it involved in the control of money, power, influence, information, resources...

There is a 'movement' motivated by control of money, power..... it is a chimera of competing beliefs that is why no one individual/organisation controls. You would be right in thinking the EU, NAU is an attempt to bring organisation to the world. Once they have control, the competition of ideology will continue between greed and altruism. It is part of the human condition, a 100 years ago altruism was making its mark and then greed took over, we have lived with capitalism in our life time the war on bankers is signalling a battle lost for those who hold the capitalistic mentality(greed) as something to aspire to.

What we see is the effect of this secret and not so secret competition, the politicians and religous leaders struggle internally with what path their organisation takes, we expect them to be for the people, some of them are spineless and/or corrupted they either go with it or they martyr themselves. I can show you the instances of it, the business leader who blows the whistle on their own corporation, the religous leader who fights the power when it harms the people. The politician who is assassinated when they say no. Are they exceptions in the age of corruption, yes they are.

There is no way the NWO can be left-leaning, because by its very nature it is elitist orientated. I would not have a problem with elitism if these people minded their own business, but since they assume god gave them the right to decide humanitys' fate then that means most people should have a problem with them, even the rich!

There you stated it elitism the belief of the individual over what is good for everyone, politics is not the answer to our problems, it is the administration of humanity on this planet. Right/Left politics it is bull# an illusion, the partisanship it will be the death us.
There are things happening which will effect all of humanity, the exponential growth in human activities will destroy us there will be no greater conclusion than that.
God is not part of this problem everything is God, everything in existence has divinity and it is God, God exists within us as individuals no one person or organisation has the right to dictate what is and what is not God, it is a tool to bend your mind, your will.

The purpose of taxation is so government can have funds to run any given country such as: the military; education; transportation; build bridges, highways, tunnels, airports, etc; pay for the police and fire department; maintaince costs associated with everything. That is a noble cause and something everyone should respect. Wether we live in a communist, socialist, capitalist, monarchy or dictatorial nation the basics are the same.

What you state is all we know. We cant help but evolve slowly, too slowly to save us, the elitists answer is Machiavellian. True socialism in my mind is not about politics the word is corrupted because it was born into the era,
where belief in politics was thought to be the key. We need to educate ourselves in the greater truths and then walk the walk.

In america for some reason, perhaps because of its puritan background, some people hate government and think its somehow evil. They want a "small" government without even defining what small means. Some people even go as far as to denounce their american citizenship and claim their own sovereignty as though they are a country. That is so perposterous that it totally defies belief! These people should ask themselves do we want to live in an organised society governed by rules& laws or is it "each person for their self" much like animals in a jungle. I am quite certain humans are better than animals and need to learn to respect each other.

The American socio-psychopathology is not organic, it has struggled to evolve through the alternating stages of fighting subjugation and achieving freedom. Do they know where they came from, do they know what makes them a people like other peoples do. They are disparate in their ethnicity, multi-culturalism brings social division, there is no solidarity.
My country is messed up, the UK that is, however the US is scary in its lack of introspection its lack of social gravitas. And please if your American and read this try to understand it is stated with good reason the main proponent of global conflict and inequality in the western world at this time is the USA. And if you cant accept it or resent it then grow up your part of the problem.

reply to post by EarthCitizen07

As for the amerian government I think there is a lot of money being spent on unneccesary projects, especially within the military-industrial complex. There are countless black projects, where even mentioning the name is a serious breach of duty and punished by fines, jail or even death. As a taxpayer I would hate contributing my hard earned money to the cia, nsa and pentagon without knowing what is going on behind the scenes. I have read "outrageous" articles where insiders claim ET technology is being disseminated, secret fema camps being built for uncompromising protestors, deep underground bases for the elite to take refuge during a major crisis and alternative 3 scenarios being implemented somewhere within our solar system. Even if all of what I mentioned was crap, we still have well documented cases of the cia covertly funding right-wing dictatorships and/or otherwise destabilizing areas of the world which it deems "necessary". Necessary for who? For the people or for the elite? Probably the second!

You know this, I know this, many of us do. We cant stop it we know it is wrong it is cancer on the planet, the Chinese are just as bad, if they had the same power they would most likely be worse.

Britain and other european countries are not exactly saints either, especially considering imperialism was a european invention which america and russia later followed. I do think that behind the scenes the elite control all of these so called developed nations and while many people may live in better conditions than people in africa, all this prosperity is nothing more than bread crumbs to satisfy our dellusional well-being and keep us silent. Entairtainment is the weapon of choice.

They are more to blame than the US they know better, I detest the establishment in America, in Europe they are nothing better than scum. They are controlled by the ideology of greed, they are not fit to lick the piss off our boots.

The biggest conspiracy of all, IMHO, is that "the illuminati" has hijacked all financial systems and turned them into profit-oriented businesses. If you go back to early america, pre-1917(I think) you will find out that the american government delegated its issuing authority to the "semi"-private Federal Reserve Bank of America. That means the american government and the people have to borrow funds at any given interest rate. In essence everyone is buying money from the Federal Reserve and the Federal Reserve always makes a profit. That is FAR from fair my friend.

The illuminati if we want to call them this made the financial system it is for their benefit, all I can state is making profit is not wrong it is how you make the profit and how the power it creates is malformed and then used for furthering the abuse of humanity.

The European Central Bank as most other central banks I suspect, work on the same principle. They lend money and we pay interest on the principle. Its a grand pyramid scheme that very few people seem to understand. This IMO is the root of all evil. If your a capitalist and especially a banker it makes perfect financial sense to cause one bankruptcy after another(such as with argentina) so that the elite can then "reposess" any worthwhile assets, keep instigating wars behind the scenes while the UN promisses peace negotiations, cause as many viral outbreaks as possible so that pharmaceutical companies can sell tainted medicine which never really cures anything but the symptoms, cause as many financial bubbles as possible so that smart investors make money while all the suckers lose their furtune, and probably many more conspiracies which are not even fathomable.

The ugly truth of it.

Capitalism is not the answer because it will always lead to corporate monopolies dominating any given financial sector. Authoritarian communism is not the answer either because it is based on the false assumption that everyone is equal and because it severly limits everyones' liberty in the process. Communism which I believe was not tainted by "the illuminati", but of course I could be wrong, did have some redeeming values such as guaranteed housing, guaranteed job, guaranteed vacation, guaranteed medical care, guaranteed retirement funds and even a payed-by-the state funeral. How much more can an average fellow ask for, especially when you consider how many people in america are on welfare and the bumbs living on the street. Some far-right conservatives falsely assumed that communism encouraged laziness because there was no greed factor involved as with capitalism and to a lesser extent with socialism. They didn't realise that if you didn't show up for work when you were supposed to and failed to have a decent excuse you would be imprissoned.

In other words everyone was suppossed to at least carry their own weight in theory. The key terms were "in theory" because there was a lot of overlooking taking place if you had the right connections and were popular. Socialism, a capitalist-communist hybrid system, IMO is the way to go but we need honest people at the helm. People that look after people and get paid a reasonable amount to do so. If you are corrupt then you need to go home and never get involved with politics again. We the people need to stop being ignorant and indifferent.

At every stage of our evolution as a civilisation we need to have the altruistic administrating our day to day affairs and to be planning for how we evolve into the next stage. There is a method to do this and it will give us equality and justice, it could be achieved if we lived as a people in a meritocracy where altruism and pragmatism were held above everything else, we would be so advanced we would be unrecognisable to ourselves.

I wish I could have written alot more, stated some incontrovertible facts provided evidence, expounded some more theory and stated a bulletproof conclusion. Damn I wish I had more hours in the day! Thanks EarthCitizen07 for your opinion it is all good IMO.

Remember its just an opinion people so dont get too upset