Is it fine to kill bad people??

reply to post by jrmcleod


No problems M8 You have your God who blesses you and I have mine who may not but I do feel the responsibility of doing something to stop someone in my power not to create the next victim.

I worked in the crime areas of San Francisco. I was involved in an armed robbery. The storeowner was from Haiti who had over $2000 in change under his cash drawer. I was in the shop with my boss who was riding with me out in my car finding a "gift" rather than pay for a display we placed. I was not wearing a suit coat. My first day on the job I cleared a store of all the customers and the owner threw me out. Next day I returned and asked why. He explained that a white man well dress in this neighbourhood wearing a suit jacket in this heat is hiding one thing a weapon that means to my customers you are a cop! Going back to the robbery, I kept turning around to get a good look at the man holding the gun. The lookout kept saying, "He is turning around shoot him!" The gunman had a turn of the century Colt .45 Peacemaker worth more that what the gun man took from the shop owner. Long story short I was afraid I would be shot when my boss came back to the story with the "gift"! Why the Blue Eyed Iowa boy knew not to wear a suit in my territory but did so anyway. They caught both men the gunman and the look out. I am an ex Airborne Ranger which made me an expert witness. The DA called me up every week and asked me if I was sure I would testify... I said yes if I had a gun I would have taken my chances Airborne. The day before trial the look out and gunman made a deal with the DA for 5 years for the gunman 3 years for the look out. The gunman served 2.5 years in prison. When released within 3 weeks he held up at gun point when one of my competitors which was a woman I dated a couple of times went to her car for a branded clock as a high value gift. When she returned her storeowner was being robbed as she came into the store the owner tried to signal to her not to come in. Since Patty was wear a woman’s quality suit the gunman same one who pointed a gun at me shot dead the storeowner and shot my friend. She lost half a lung. I thank your God every time I think about this situation that I did not have a gun and did nothing. The sad joke is that the local SF cops hung out at local corner shops as they have coffee and a deli to make sandwiches and was told by one. "Aren't you the rep who was in an armed robbery over such and such street?" "Yes" was my response. He said you should be carrying a concealed weapon - you were in the service right?". I said "Yes, however I am more concern being caught with one by one of your kind!" I won't go on from here but to this day I am pissed at the DA of San Francisco as Patty would still be working and her storeowner would be alive today. I did go and asked him if he was happy with the outcome and it was suggested if I carried on with my line I could find myself somewhere I would not want to be.

I hope you might be able to understand my point of view and how strongly I feel about as I HAVE been there. Yes I did it for my country but could not for my friend, as I was too concerned about what the cops would do if I were found packing. I did not realize that they would have looked the other way!

I went to Private Military School called Mt Lowe in Southern California. We had three Pedos as teachers. Not everyone was as lucky as you in their adult life. Promise you this is true. Mt. Lowe look it up in Google....

May your God Bless You!

reply to post by jrmcleod


I fully understand what you say actually...not sure why people are confused by it. odd

to clarify to those whom still dont understand, people whom are known bad people as the thread generalizes...lets say murders...are known because they are caught, imprisoned, and no longer a threat.

They pose no danger so to kill them is simply vengence and bloodlust...which are hardly traits jesus preached

the danger are the people whoim you simply dont know are bad people yet...murders rarely have a tattoo on their head stating "I am a secret serial killer"...and once again, to drive the point home...the identified people in society whom are bad...are no longer a threat for the most part as they are currently either in the pokey, or have at least recieved help to correct the problem.

Beware of the people you dont know moreso than the people you do...the ones that got tagged have often learned the errors of their ways...the ones not caught are the ones that are dangerous.

It amazes me that obvious, self evident truths seem to outlandish to some...did someone put something in the water?

My take:

You try and kill me...you die
You try and kill my family or any member of...you die
You try and kill my friends...you die
I see you trying to kill or mame someone who cannot defend themselves...you die

I see you abuse a child where the child is injured, disfigured, etc...you get one leg and one arm removed.
I see you abusing an elderly person because you can...you lose all but 2 fingers and 2 toes.

No I am kidding about the last two... I SWEAR....

but as for the first 4....

According to the Bible all have sinned and fell short of the glory of God. So yes, kill everyone. Just kidding. I nor the Bible advocates killing anyone because you have perceived them to be bad.

There are many opinions on the subject, however i'd like to point out that saying "just kill 'em all", is just as short-sighted as saying "dont kill anyone, fix 'em instead". It is my belief that all humans have an equal 50/50 capacity for both good and evil, and that for reasons not fully understood some are born with a pre-disposition for one or the other.

It is also my belief that Right and Wrong are merely public opinion, however Good and Evil are not, and all humans from birth understand the difference between the two. As it has been said in the past "No one condemns the starving man for stealing bread.....until he is caught."

Take this example on the miracle that is life. The earth is precisely where it needs to be in order to sustain life. So too, I propose, the universe/God/creator figure of your choice likes balance, in everything. In order for the pendulum that is our reality to function properly, there must be two extremes and a middle, constantly in motion.

Without chaos, order would become stagnant. Without Order, chaos would dissipate.
So to answer the OP, no I do not believe it is Good to kill anyone, for does this spread Good? Does it not in fact produce yet more evil? Do i think some people deserve to die? Yes. Only, I take this knowledge hand in hand with the fact that by eradicating an Evil, a Good must also perish. As the christian bible says "there is a time to kill, and a time to refrain from killing..."

I feel I must also add that I cannot add drug dealers/users into the categories of Good and Evil, for are not these matters of public opinion, i.e. right and wrong? What one person does with their own life should never be anyone else's' business, lest they harm another. If they commit a crime while under the influence of such drugs, guess what? We already have laws in place that prescribe punishments for those crimes! What we need is not more restriction on our lives and liberties, but less. Think on this: Gun control laws ONLY impair law abiding citizens. Those intent on committing a crime will do so regardless, and reasonably so because our reality must always remain In Balance.

As evidence of this theory, I ask this? How much do you think you would truly value Love, if you had never once known Fear?

reply to post by SaturnFX


The problem my friend is once caught sooner or later they are released into the community. This why I ask who is responsible and why should that person who freed the convict not be responsible along with the convict for the next act!

The unlawlessness of cities like Dodge and Tombstone relied on people like the Earp Brothers to stop murders in their tracks... It seem to work once IMHO.

Originally posted by gandhi
Short answer, yeah its bad, long answer, personal opinion based.

Fighting fire with fire is never the answer though. Simply killing the problem solves nothing, nobody learns, and your left with the same thing you killed.

I totally agree with you here ...Violence breeds more violence....and if you killed and are ok with being the one doing it then for sure your on the same level as the one you killed ....They feel no remorse ../.you feel no remorse killing them .....your not much different than them (your concience is just as dead as theirs ).And once you have killed and justified it you will certainly kill again and find a justification for all of them ...

reply to post by learningtofly


If I looked out my window and saw a grown man with his pants down seconds away from violating a young child, I would have no problem whatsoever "damaging" myself by putting a bullet in his head.

That young child would be physically and emotionally damaged for a very long time.

Even if I did believe that my psyche would be damaged by killing him, I would rather that happen than have an innocent child scarred for life.

It's called sacrifice. It's what GOOD people do.



Peace

reply to post by gandhi


If "Joe"murders my innocent neighbor for no reason there is a problem, "Joe"

If I kill him because I feel my life is in danger because he just murdered my neighbor and I feel like I am next, how does that NOT solve the problem? He's dead and he can't kill again.

If "joe" had an accomplice in the car who saw the whole thing, and did not learn that killing someone will get you killed in return, well then I guess he just wasn't paying attention.

Peace

Originally posted by SonsOfAnarchy
Today, for the first, I saw the Boondock Saints and started thinking whether killing bad/evil people is okay. I was always against any sort of violence but honestly in today's world with all these gangs, drug dealers, rapists etc. I think killing them may be a viable option...What do you guys think?? Is it okay to kill bad people(who are clearly bad)??

You either kill them(murderers,rapists,violent people,people who steal millions) or put them in prison for life. (excluding drug dealers)
Prison is torture.
Torture is evil.
If you torture them you are evil.
You have no choice.
The only humane thing is to kill them.

I am totally amazed at how people think incarcerating a human being for life is not torture. I think they like the idea of others suffering.

Arab saying:It is immoral to feed or water a man condemned to death.

reply to post by Simplynoone


Killing simply for the sake of it is violence.

Killing the perpatrater of wanton violence for the common good of society is NOT violence, it's called protecting the innocent who cannot protect themselves from killers, rapists, etc.....

If I killed a man who just shot 10 people dead in a bank because he lost his marbles, I'm not on his level. I wasn't killing innocent people. I was protecting them from the person who was killing innocent people. And if you honestly cannot see the difference in that, I feel sorry for you. I really do.

Peace

reply to post by zerbot565


Killing a killer to prove killing is neccessary is.....

right.



Peace

Originally posted by Taupin Desciple
reply to post by gandhi

 

If "Joe"murders my innocent neighbor for no reason there is a problem, "Joe"

So, you then demonstrate that its fine to kill the mentally disturbed...no need to figure out why they went insane (parasite in the water, some theta waves programming him to do things, etc)...and sure, since we really dont know why he killed your innocent neighbor then whatever happened to him may spread out to others...but hey...he killed someone for no reason.

Heres the thing...there is ALWAYS a reason...and quite often things are not as black and white as we would like for them to be. The only exception to this is literally insane people...(yes, serial killing people...eating people..etc..thats about as nutty as you get)

So, it might be best if we just eliminate all people deemed insane or mentally disturbed...then we certainly wont have people killing people for *no reason*. then we can go back to the original reasons of greed, passion, desperation, self defense, war, etc.

I think killing the crazys is a bad move...mostly because ATS would become rather quiet (jk...sorta)

In defense of self, family, country, or community it is always reasonable to take a persons life. In defense of property, it is a step to far.

I think the conversation you are having now about who is responsible for their violent acts if they are captured, jailed and later released, is the real issue.

We know that psychopathy is caused by a brain with a dysfunction. There is no cure, no treatment and no chance that these people will ever stop their violent acts. No amount of punishment or jail time will change them. The law does not take this into account mainly due to the idiocy of political correctness (or whatever name you wish to put to it).

I think the solution to these individuals is to find a humane, economically viable way to contain them separate from everyone else for their entire lives. The fact we release these individuals, knowing they are psychopaths, is in itself insane.

The whole idea of rehabilitation of these people is a product of well intentioned idea's that quite frankly ignore facts and reality. This idea of rehabilitating these people is the product of people who simply are incapable of rational decisions or critical thinking.

These people who are often referred to, lovingly, as bleeding hearts, are good well meaning people but are as dangerous to us as are the psychopaths that fill our prisons. Their inability to understand that these violent criminals brains have a physiological abnormality as opposed to an mental abnormality causes many of the violent crimes we see; as surely as if it was they who committed the act.

Psychopaths (Sociopaths) are literally suffering from a physical disability. One for which there is no treatment or cure. Our antiquated way of thinking and laws fails to take this into account. Our antiquated way of thinking about illnesses of the brain as being moral weaknesses also is a major problem. These people can no more control this than an amputee could grow back an arm or a leg. It enters the realm of Stupid to even think they can be ever released back into society.

There are now simple ways to view the activities in the brain and know which people are suffering from psychopathy and yet that plays no part in our laws, courts or system of punishment. Clearly such tests should be immediately conducted on anyone who commits a violent crime to find out if they should ever be considered for release.

It was not that many generations ago that we actually had the right slant on these people. They were called bad seeds. We also knew that what was wrong with them could be passed from parent to child.

Then comes along the idea of rehabilitation and that it was a form of discrimination to even consider that psychopathy could be inherited or that psychopaths could not be rehabilitated. We moved into the irrational idea that anyone could be rehabilitated and that psychopathy was somehow a weakness; moral or otherwise. We dumbed ourselves down in the name of compassion and political correctness.

We then find out through research that psychopath's are not suffering from a moral or mental weakness and that the causes are purely physiological. We find out their brains do no function correctly. They do not feel emotions, nor remorse or guilt and there is no way to treat them. There is no way to rehabilitate them. We find out it is inherited and does pass from parent to child. We had it right all along.

Clearly we need to fully rethink how these people are separated from society and controlled. We need to rethink how we approach them in general. We need to admit that the idea of rehabilitation of these people is simply not possible because the problem is physiological and an issue of upbringing or morality.

In the end we will find I'm sure, that we should contain them permanently in a humane environment. We can not deal with these people under the same legal system as we do those not suffering from this disability.

Then we come to those who's actions are the result of bad parenting, association with gangs and greed or laziness. With them it is almost worse because they do know right and wrong. The only hope I see here is punishments so harsh, so miserable they can be reprogrammed to play nice with the other kids.

I see the first step with these folks to get those in prison for non-violent or victimless crimes the hell out of our jail cells. It is stupidity of the worst kind to have them in a jail in the first place. They are there because of people who want to force their points of view upon them so badly they are willing to lock them up. One cold argue the people who write and enforce those laws are more dangerous than the people they are locking up.

Kill violent people just so we don't have to deal with them? No way. Lock them up permanently and humanely? Yes that is the correct answer.

[edit on 2/5/2010 by Blaine91555]

Killing bad people? Ofcourse BUT not just anyone who does something bad like takes drugs or drinks all the time, even I wouldn't kill a thief. The only people I really believe deserve to die are people who abuse life which then therefor they don't deserve to live their own, like child abusers, animal cruelty, rapists and people on the similar level. And if someone takes the life another wether that be an animal or a human being then they have already abused life so then deserve to die. But if it's self defense, I agree with killing but only as a very last resort.

[edit on 5-2-2010 by Spacedeck]

Originally posted by IceHappy
reply to post by SaturnFX

 

The problem my friend is once caught sooner or later they are released into the community. This why I ask who is responsible and why should that person who freed the convict not be responsible along with the convict for the next act!

The unlawlessness of cities like Dodge and Tombstone relied on people like the Earp Brothers to stop murders in their tracks... It seem to work once IMHO.

1) yes, do the crime, pay the fine so to speak...the harder the crime, the harder the sentence. Cold blooded killers are either doing a lifetime in prison or executed. Manslaughter, less, etc...
typically...not always...but typically a person released into the community is for all intensive purposes..."cured".

A decent argument can be made for repeat offenders...3 strikes kinda thing for high level felonys...but even there we already have a 3 strike rule that puts people away for a very...very long time anyhow.

As far as the old west thing...that holds no water...the old west was hardly a peaceful and tranquil environment...its actually known for the exact opposite, and arugably because of the lack of proper justice system (cowboy justice).

I am for reprogramming criminals...I find vengence stupid and pointless overall..and incidently, my older brother was murdered, so this subject effects me directly. The person got 2 years (plea bargain down to manslaughter). Do I wish him dead? well, I am not a big fan of his and doubt I will ever be BFFs, but I do know he now is a father of children and straightened up his life after spending the time in the pokey. Can I forgive him? sure, but I will never forget..him being killed for what he did would not bring my brother back, but him doing what he did may one day help someone else out going down the same path he was to not make the same mistakes he made. I wish him the best of luck with life.

took me about 15 years to get to that point...past the hate and rage and into a more thoughtful mindset about the bigger picture.

It seems to me as if most of the people who have posted here do not know the difference between murder and killing...and basically the difference is intention. Therefore you can't really say "killing a killer to prove killing is wrong" it would be more like "killing a murderer to prove murder is wrong," and with the second one I agree...

Originally posted by Spacedeck
Killing bad people? Ofcourse BUT not just anyone who does something bad like takes drugs or drinks all the time, even I wouldn't kill a thief. The only people I really believe deserve to die are people who abuse life which then therefor they don't deserve to live their own, like child abusers, animal cruelty, rapists and people on the similar level. And if someone takes the life another wether that be an animal or a human being then they have already abused life so then deserve to die. But if it's self defense, I agree with killing but only as a very last resort.

[edit on 5-2-2010 by Spacedeck]

animal cruelty.

you know, if you had your way...and you were a member of PETA...all but vegans would be dead by that measuring stick. Child abuse? you know a spanking is now considered abuse and the defination is becoming more and more encompassing yearly. Rape? what type? daterape? you know if a 20 year old sleeps with a 15 year old, its rape...even if he/she didnt know the age to begin with? and again you go back to take the life of a animal...as I sit here eating chicken and rice, I think...in your world, I would now be dead.

Originally posted by SonsOfAnarchy
It seems to me as if most of the people who have posted here do not know the difference between murder and killing...and basically the difference is intention. Therefore you can't really say "killing a killer to prove killing is wrong" it would be more like "killing a murderer to prove murder is wrong," and with the second one I agree...

Kill: to end the life of
Murder: to unlawfully end the life of

old west justice/lynch mobs = murder

if the argument is that a person should feel good about killing someone whom murders, and assuming said person is not a judge with authority to sentence to death, then by the definition of the word, they are a murderer and deserve the same fate as the one they murdered.

From a karmic point of view if you do not kill a bad person, I mean a really bad person, like a coldblooded murderer than you are in fact disadvantaging that soul. That soul will than have incarnate many times to pay back the karmic debt of their murder. However, if you kill them for their crimes, then to some extent you have lessened their karmic debt.

So by using the logic of the law of karma we should dispense justice here and now. There is no wisdom in being compassionate to bad people, for not only is it not good for their soul, but it also not good for others who have to endure people like them. In order to keep social harmony the bad definitely need to be dealt with justly.