This is to ALL Alien and UFO Debunkers

I think I understand what the OP is trying to say.

In essence, if you are going to explain something away as being 'x' or 'y', it might actually be helpful if you give your reasons for thinking that it's 'x' or 'y'

Quite frankly, I think that for both sides to do this (sceptics & believers) is not an unreasonable suggestion.

Otherwise we are down to mere 'opinion', backed up by nothing, rather than any attempt to share ideas, insights, and analysis.

I fail to see why the OP is getting so much flak for making what is (in my opinion) quite a reasonable suggestion.

Originally posted by Dagar
I think I understand what the OP is trying to say.

In essence, if you are going to explain something away as being 'x' or 'y', it might actually be helpful if you give your reasons for thinking that it's 'x' or 'y'

Quite frankly, I think that for both sides to do this (sceptics & believers) is not an unreasonable suggestion.

Otherwise we are down to mere 'opinion', backed up by nothing, rather than any attempt to share ideas, insights, and analysis.

I fail to see why the OP is getting so much flak for making what is (in my opinion) quite a reasonable suggestion.

Thank you! I am not a good words person, and you explain just what I meant.

[edit on 31-1-2010 by Phlynx]

i think the op is right and people just immidiatley make it there task to debunk, its just narrow minded selfishness at the highest level anyway, it needs to stop.

reply to post by Phlynx


I too understand what you have been trying to say.

I just think you should consider things from other points of view.

Skeptics have been dealing with hoaxes, mistaken claims, naivity and just plain old wacko for years and nothing so far has given them reason to doubt the next in line.

It's not their fault and must be accepted as part of the norm.

Sure, there's plenty of interesting cases out there, but until a single one of them has the big cherry on the icing, it's more of the same and nothing to show any change in the future.

Please appreciate that some of the people you berate are still open to the possibilities that you yourself may believe but don't chastise them for behaving as most people "out there" would.

Remember, there are skeptics, believers and then, everyone else. What do you think "everyone else" would say if confronted with some of the things we read and see here? I think you are in a safe-haven and should be trying to work alongside one and all who frequent ATS. We're in this together, for better or worse and right now this is home. Forgive the one line "it's CGI" and look at the case, not the poster.

Frustrating I know, when something so fantastic is staring you in the face. Sometimes that vision can have powerful effects and to be faced with brick walls in the shape of opposing opinions can cause one to reach for a hammer.

Don't. Get a ladder and rise above it or simply walk around. Better still, find the door, walk through it and show others the way.

I'll tell you something I've learned in my time here....a lot of the times that I read the examples of what you have mentioned in your OP are when skeptics encounter threads started by believers who create something of little or no substance.

Threads with a youtube clip and not much opinion or some outlandish claim or statement that has no basis on reality or fact. You can't blame the givers of the remarks you talked about when faced with something as frustrating and often as worthless as that.

Yin Yang my friend. Accept it, it's everywhere and to not have it would be unnatural.

Good luck and I hope you enjoy your time here without feeling so "us and them".

We're all mad at the end of the day. Welcome to the human condition my friend.

reply to post by jonnydavx


Many people on here a keen or even pro photographers and spot flaws re pics and videos posted, but even if we do that the facts are ignored and we are called disinfo agents etc when if fact the actual post we debunk is the disinfo

[edit on 31-1-2010 by wmd_2008]

Originally posted by jonnydavx
i think the op is right and people just immidiatley make it there task to debunk, its just narrow minded selfishness at the highest level anyway, it needs to stop.

If people didn't debunk, truth goes out the window.

Possibilities must work both ways for perspective, without that there is only ignorance and denial.

I agree that some debunking posters could put a little more consideration into their opinions, but they are no better than those who expect them to believe by using a similar lack of consideration in their opinions.

Originally posted by expat2368
We have people on here who go to extraordinary great lengths to "debunk" any UFO or Alien thread.

Recently I posted a thread about a lady in Pennsylvania who obviously has objects of some kind that are constantly in the area around where she lives. Her neighbors and others in the area have seen them and filmed them also.
I made the post with the idea of seeing just how far some of these people would go to "shut down" the thread and divert people's attention elsewhere.

It did not take long for them to come out of the woodwork Not only did they attack the videos the lady made, they made personal attacks on her, and also on me. The kind of language and conduct I saw was even more abusive than I originally thought it might be.

That kind of behavior is not constructive toward the debate, it is obviously for some reason, a concerted effort to destroy any thread on the subject of UFOs and Aliens. Whether it is an "institutional" effort or just individuals with an agenda is difficult to tell, but it certainly goes beyond just normal skepticism.

The videos you posted of what were clearly planes and helipcopters were not constructive to the debate.

You claimed to be some airplane expert by "sales" and failed at providing any evidence that either you or the Pa lady know what you are talking about.

Not only have her videos been debunked before, but they were debunked again and then your qualifications were debunked using facts.

And to come crying in another thread about how its every single UFO thread is utter rubbish. Like every "argument" you made in your thread.

[edit on 31-1-2010 by watcher73]

Originally posted by Phlynx
I have seen a rise in threads lately of people debunking Alien/UFO videos, just because they look fake. Threads are debunked with no proof, and purely speculation on that they are fake, or a hoax.

Aren't you doing the same thing, but in reverse...

If they look fake, why would you default to accepting them as real? That doesn't make any sense at all.

If your car is making a strange noise and you have a buddy who's a mechanic that tells you just by the subtleties of the sound exactly what the problem is and explains what you have to do, do you: A) Take his advice since he's a mechanic with years of experience in car maintenance, or, B) Tell him to prove it by disassembling your entire vehicle in front of your eyes and have him impart to you all of his experience so you're on the same level.

That's exactly what it's like when you have a thread with dubious photos of UFOs. You have people with computer science backgrounds pointing out the issues, and then you have laymen complaining that they're just debunkers and their opinion isn't valid because they don't understand the process of evaluation.

[edit on January 31st 2010 by greeneyedleo]

Originally posted by sparrowstail
From a reformed skeptic who couldn't deny his ignorance with regards to ufo phenomenon any longer.

This just goes to show the huge educational distance we need to overcome before we can work together.

A reformed sceptic?

Could anyone explain to me what that is please? I've either been hit with the silly stick or I think some people are incorrect in their labelling of sceptic.

It is hard to keep personal prejudice out of scrutiny, you've seen countless hoaxes and look to take the easier road of supposing something is fake, because from experience it always is. However genuine sceptics look with impartiality and consider all options. It's hard work, thankless too, but that's how we are no longer sitting around the campfire. Some of us got up and started making things that are worthwhile.

If someone wants to utilise the energy of this forums members then that person should show some manners and try to make sure that their claim has at least some semblance of the paranormal and will hold up to scrutiny. There are plenty of wonderful things in this universe - we don't have to go and create fantastic tales to make any more.

Watch Captain Disillusion on YouTube if you want to see a healthy, upbeat attitude towards debunking.



-m0r

Heres the overall issue.

You can post a video of a mothership abducting cattle...it can land, ET come out and wave at the camera, then beam on back to the ship.

Is this proof? is it even evidence?
yes and no...here is whats needed...

IF the raw footage can be traced and more importantly to a credible source (say...CNN was doing a piece on farms and caught this), then you got something...

Alien stuff: Things that simply cannot be dismissed as earth developed material..if you got some sort of raygun, or some nanotech built supercomputer widget that has been studied by independent labs and all scratch their heads...then yep, you got something of great interest.

Otherwise...it must be dismissed...pretty narrow gap.

Now, the question is why. Why dismiss that but not everything else. The old addage of Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. If I say to you I walked down the street and seen a bird on a post, chances are that wont be challenged. But, if I added in...then the bird turned into an elf and turned the post into a great pink elephant...you would rightfully want either some proof, else you would simply write me off as mad.

You see birds on posts...most people do...but turning into an magical elf on top of pink elephants...bit more rare.

So, nobody has to "prove" something extraordinary is fake...its basically fake until its proven true...and the proof has to be extraordinary and with no possible other explanation. If you see something fantastically wild on a youtube video...sure...it may be a cool video, may even be a cool lead...but proof? naa...need alot to turn cool videos from random people into proof.

I didnt read all the posts, but I would be suprised if everything I said wasn't posted already here and there.

incidently, I am a UFO believer...but I dont let my belief cloud my knowledge of whats required to be seen as fact. I seen a ton of leads, no proof yet...but I am hopeful that one day such proof will come out.

reply to post by SaturnFX


CNN credible?

Hardly.

Evidence is evidence , no matter where it comes from.It is really a matter of what the spectator believes or not to be proof and real. As it is with all evidence.
Truth will always be truth even if it looks "fake", likewise fake will always be fake even if it looks like "truth".

What about people like me that have seen these magnetic field or plasma energy type craft but have no pics or videos? I took me over a week to get the nerve up to post about my sighting....

1st Sighting

Im still alittle suprised that the MIB didn't pay me a visit.

reply to post by SaturnFX


I'm sorry, but I flat out disagree with your premise. If we all adopt what you suggest we might as well all go home and never mention the subject again.

By your criteria, all witness evidence from military and civilian pilots, policemen, astronomers, engineers, and every (otherwise) credible witness is worth diddly, since everything they say has to be labelled hoax.

... and who decides what is extraordinary or unlikely? ... To the person who has seen or experienced a UFO sighting, or perhaps even interacted with it's occupants, no amount of screaming 'hoax' or 'prove it' is going to cut it or make a blind bit of difference... They know the truth, their version of reality is now different to yours. What's unlikely to the sceptic is now both likely and real to the experiencer.

Personally I've never seen a UFO or experienced anything 'extraordinary', but I'm pretty convinced that at least some UFOs are alien in origin, and that the phenomena has been with us right through history. Why? ... The aforementioned pilots, astronomers, policemen, etc

I don't need extraordinary proof... I just need credible evidence (of which there is TONS), and if possible 'proof' ... Proof is proof, labelling it 'extraordinary' will not make it any more or less relevant.

Consequently, when approaching a new thread I approach it from the point of view that the phenomena is a real one, as real as anything else. When I look at the evidence (or lack of) presented in thread in question I don't think ' Could it be anything else other than an alien spaceship?' ... I approach it from the point of view of 'what is it most likely to be GIVEN THE EVIDENCE PRESENTED'.

Trying to see if I can shoehorn in any explanation other than an ET craft, if the facts presented fit the ET scenario better than anything else, is both blinkered and dishonest... In my opinion anyway.

In essence I prefer to look at the evidence without any preconceptions... Look at the evidence without already having dismissed one of the available options, or relegated it to last place.

Originally posted by Dagar
Consequently, when approaching a new thread I approach it from the point of view that the phenomena is a real one,

*snip*

In essence I prefer to look at the evidence without any preconceptions...

If you read what you post before hitting the reply button people like me may be more likely to take your opinions more seriously.

You make a BIG contradiction there.

Sorry.

[edit on 1/2/2010 by nerbot]

Originally posted by nerbot

Originally posted by Dagar
Consequently, when approaching a new thread I approach it from the point of view that the phenomena is a real one,

*snip*

In essence I prefer to look at the evidence without any preconceptions...

If you read what you post before hitting the reply button people like me may be more likely to take your opinions more seriously.

You make a BIG contradiction there.

Sorry.

[edit on 1/2/2010 by nerbot]

No contradiction at all.

I don't approach any thread thinking the case being discussed within that thread is real, hoax, misidentification, etc... I do approach a thread with one of the available options being that it might be real. I don't relegate the possibility to the 'anything but alien' bin, before I've even looked at the evidence.

As to whether 'people like you' take my opinion seriously or not... I think you got me confused with someone who actually gives a damn!

Originally posted by Phlynx

Did you even read the OP?

Here's a summary. People should only debunk if they have the proof to debunk the imagery or video shown.

Why? Few of the believers have "proof" either to support their claims. If you are going to demand evidence from the debunker/skeptics, demand also proof from the "believers".

If someone is posting a video and they just ask "what is it?", I don't see why you need evidence to voice an opinion. 'Cause that's all it is, an opinion. Now if they're so foolish as to unequivocally state that it's a Chinese lantern, well then I'll be right beside you in asking for their evidence.

It comes down, I guess, as to how they're stating their opinion. As just an opinion, no big thing... As a statement of "fact", bring your proofs, folks.

So I guess I'm agreeing with you, yet not... Typical of this forum, I suppose .

Originally posted by Monts
I like this rant.

People who say that a video is fake because it "looks like cgi" or "looks like it's been edited" say so with no backing proof or evidence.

Taking that kind of stance, you could say any video in the entire world is fake/cgi/edited.

Like I could say this video is just CGI with added sound effects. I have no proof, no evidence, but where is YOUR evidence to say that it's real?

All UFO vids and pictures are just that-vids and pictures. Of course some are fake, some are real, but it is impossible to tell for sure without professional analysis. All should be met with the same dose of healthy skepticism; "That is a cool UFO vid- It might be real, it might be not, but I have no way of knowing without seeing professional analysis."

Speculation is fine, however to say that you are sure it is faked, and start flaming people who think it is real, is just being childish.

I myself have never personally seen a UFO, and I still can't seem to get my head around the idea that they are real; I believe they are 100% real, but it's hard to know what that means to me unless I actually see one flying over my house.

very good arguement,I personaly saw an amazing UFO event.The study of UFO's simply is very sloppy and filled with trolls and dumb arguments.There is no doubt that through out the history real UFO stories have happened.It is a total shame these stories in some cases have been studied by government agnecies who still will continue to deny it.So they don't help the cause with all the bad debunkers and the people who think everything is a UFO with an alien in it.Need intelligent skpeticism and honest people studying this stuff.Some of it is difently real,after I saw my UFO event I'm convinced about 10 to 15% UFO cases are real and not from earth.

Originally posted by m0r1arty

Originally posted by sparrowstail
From a reformed skeptic who couldn't deny his ignorance with regards to ufo phenomenon any longer.

Watch Captain Disillusion on YouTube if you want to see a healthy, upbeat attitude towards debunking.

-m0r

Captian Disillusion is how everything should be debunked.

Originally posted by ZombieOctopus

Originally posted by Phlynx
I have seen a rise in threads lately of people debunking Alien/UFO videos, just because they look fake. Threads are debunked with no proof, and purely speculation on that they are fake, or a hoax.

Aren't you doing the same thing, but in reverse...

If they look fake, why would you default to accepting them as real? That doesn't make any sense at all.

If your car is making a strange noise and you have a buddy who's a mechanic that tells you just by the subtleties of the sound exactly what the problem is and explains what you have to do, do you: A) Take his advice since he's a mechanic with years of experience in car maintenance, or, B) Tell him to prove it by disassembling your entire vehicle in front of your eyes and have him impart to you all of his experience so you're on the same level.

That's exactly what it's like when you have a thread with dubious photos of UFOs. You have people with computer science backgrounds pointing out the issues, and then you have laymen complaining that they're just debunkers and their opinion isn't valid because they don't understand the process of evaluation.

Ok... very rarely are the debunkers professionals. If they just say this or that is why it is not alien/ufo I am fine, but if they aren't baking up there opinions, they aren't debunking at all.