Better Off Deadbeat: People Get Into Debt, Learn the Law, Become "Credit Terrorists"

Ah, ignorance and apathy.

Even as Rome burns, people refuse to feel the heat or smell the smoke. They'd rather chalk it up to "lazy people looking for handouts" that got us in this mess.

Just keep dancing around the edge of the flames and laughing at those in the fire, eventually you're going to burn.

umm...let's see....

Morgan Stanley...

blogs.wsj.com...

Tishman Speyer and BlackRock

www.crainsnewyork.com...

The owners of the Watergate Hotel

www.rcanalytics.com...

all these have one thing in common, they are defaulting on their loans, and for at least one of them well, if wasn't bacause the business was so much that the business was in trouble, but rather, it was determined to be a bad business venture.

as far as I am concerned what is good for the geese is also good for us ganders!! if it's all just business as usual, saving that bottom line for them, well, guess I should start thinking the same way?

according to the nice kind person giving us all these legalities, we've all been transformed into corporate entities. well, maybe I am wrong, but I think that in order to be a corporate entity, I have to be in some kind of business?? Gee the only business I can think of that I might be in would be that of survival....so, well, just like any good corporations, maybe I should start keeping a record of my business....survival....ya know, record all income, and all the expenses I incur in my quest to survive, ya know, food, housing, that nice huge electric bill we just got, medcal, transportation costs, the whole boot! gee maybe I'll even apply for some stimulus money for creating a new job, and hire a maid!

the banks were given plenty of money in the form of bailouts....that money will be coming from us, either through taxation, or through inflation, doesn't matter it will be coming from me and my kids, and probably my grandkids!!
yes, I feel an obligation to keep my word and pay my debts, and will try like heck to do that. but, it wasn't all us little subprimers just wanting a house to live in that screwed things up so badly, it was what they did with those mortgages afterwards, the slicing and dicing and gambling with them! It was that that caused our economy to come to a screaching halt, threw millions of people out of work, and forced many of them into mortgage defaults!
ya, I feel an obligation to pay my debts, to keep my word, I also think that the lack of fairness and and such has to be considered here. and considering that one, well, I've got to say, if push comes to shove, well, my and my children's share of obligation for these bailouts will most certainly, eventually, pay for any and all debts that we have outstanding! I will not feel the least bit of guilt if we end up having to walk away from our mortgate!
As far as us all being lazy??

In physics, mechanical work is the amount of energy transferred by a force acting through a distance. Like energy, it is a scalar quantity, with SI units of joules. The term work was first coined in 1826 by the French mathematician Gaspard-Gustave Coriolis.[1][2]

According to the work-energy theorem if an external force acts upon a rigid object, causing its kinetic energy to change from Ek1 to Ek2, then the mechanical work (W) is given by:[3]

W = \Delta E_k = E_[k2] - E_[k1] = \tfrac12 m (v_2^2 - v_1^2) \,\!

en.wikipedia.org...

I've spent weeks running magnets through the entire printing process, from press, to cutter, to finishing to boxing, that equates to a couple of tons of magnets being lifted from point a, to point b about six different times throughout the week!

I suppose you push folders across a desk??

What a great thread, thanks for starting this.

All my experience with banks has taught me that they are nothing but a bunch of crooks.

Let's take the Apple example.

Farmer John has apples to sell.

The bank tells farmer John that if he gives them his apples on credit, they will pay him X amount of dollars.

The bank then sells those apples to Mark the grocer for a nice profit.

Then when Farmer John asks for his money, the pay gives him less money than they promised, due to trumped up charges that were hidden in the paper work.

If farmer John protests, the bank tells him to give them back the money he paid, and to then sue them.

The bank then charges Mark the grocer more money than he agreed, once again due to trumped up charges that were hidden in the paper work.

If Mark protests, they illegally slander him through his credit score.

The banks do this to everyone, and screw everyone and our entire economy by doing this.

The biggest problem of our current economy is that these crooks have screwed over so many people. The finance industry sharks have taken out a 40% bite of our economy. This is what has killed out economy.

If we took them and their lawyers out on a big boat in the middle of the Pacific and sunk it, the world would be a better place.

I am all for the credit terrorists.

reply to post by LightFantastic


I hear you, as one of my original posts states I too was someone who made bad decisions when in college and racked up a bunch of debt that I assumed I'd be able to pay off once out of college. I got out of school and realized it wasn't going to be that easy, but by then was in too deep. I couldnt stand the thought of not covering my bills so I started covering one card bill with another until it snowballed out of control and I had to file a bankruptcy. So I know full well what can happen to a person who's not thinking logically or in the long term. I've got a mortgage and would loose my home immediately if I lost my job so I hear what you are saying. But my point is that people shouldnt enter into things they arent confident in, and definitely shouldn't be planning on screwing over the people they made commitments to. That just creates a society of lazy people who feel and teach our young that its ok to lie and steal to get what you want. In the end it costs me the tax payer more. Oh and yea I screwed up but I never felt it was the creditors fault. Nobody put a gun to my head and said go get new cloths with a GAP card, or pay for your gas with the MOBIL card.....

Originally posted by jaysconspiracy
Not that long ago I got myself in a world of credit card debt. I did my best to pay but eventually it snowballed and I had to file bankruptcy. [...]

Are you going to do your best to be a man ( or woman ) of your word, or are you another leech wants it all but isnt willing to work for it?

You'll not get far in a career in finance by just giving-up and resigning to writing off a debt/filing for bankrupcy (as either a financier or consumer)

I'm paying off credit debts that were well-considered when taken out and the money spent, and with the full knowledge of what the calculated repayments would be, and honoured to meet those repayments honestly and can still meet those obligations easily within my means despite being on a breadline income

However, when I happened to let my eye off the ball for one moment and accidentally missed a payment, the lender swung into full-scale collection tactics to secure the missing payment, and in the course of their doing so, made several legal errors. I settled the missing payment promptly but refused to honour the penalty charges imposed as they had broken a key banking and financial regulation, so my non-payment of that additional charge was in effect a penalty-charge against the bank

So I am now in the position of enforcing exactly the same tactics and regulations that the banks use to secure penalties from debtors, against themselves.

Both contractual parties agreed to play on the same field and be bound by the same rules at the time of signing the contract. If you choose not to enforce those rules that bind the bank, just as they do to you, then more fool you.

If you read any small-print on any financial contract, it states (to the effect that) any wilful action in an attempt to mislead, misconstrue, or fraudulently obtain money will effectively render the contract as terminated.

On the banks side this means that all monies lent are immediately repayable, and legal action sought. On the consumers side, this means that all monies lent cannot be claimed, and legal action sought.

You took the cheap and easy option of bankrupcy...

I'm playing by the banks own interpretations of the rules they seek to enforce to ensure I win...and you have to work damn hard to get that victory too

Originally posted by tankthinker

Originally posted by jaysconspiracy
What kind of world are we living in!!?? People on here are cheering the idea of not paying any more of their debts and saying " to hell with them" to all the people they borrowed from. It should come to no shock that we live in a crumbling society where unemployment is up and the desire to work hard is way down. Everyone expects a golden life to just be handed to them.

if you truly understood real economics and how the financial/debt system works you would see the fallacy and ignorance of everything you just said. Do your due diligence before commenting on things you arent aware of.

And if you had done your due diligence before spouting off, you would have taken the time to read through all of my posts. If you had, you would have read that I've been working for the same financial corporation for well over a decade. I think after ten years of management for a multi million dollar corporation I have a decent idea on how things work......... It seems you on the other hand may not be intelligent enough to understand my point. It is irrelevant that the financial/debt system is a crime, my point is simply that "in my opinion" we should not be agreeing to do something and then not try and honor our agreement. Its not about if the banks are corrupt, its about us as a society realizing that we need to fight the good fight. If we dont like what the banks are doing lets try to change it. But change doesnt come when a group of morons decide to take on debt and then change their mind and decide they don't want to pay on that debt...... Take the time to read what I said before making yourself look like a clown....

Originally posted by TheComte
reply to post by jaysconspiracy

 

You say to other people to take responsibility for themselves yet you take the easy way out and declare bankruptcy. What's the difference between bankruptcy and just not paying your debts? Either way your debt doesn't get paid.

Originally posted by jaysconspiracy
I agree totally. Great post..Call it old fashion, but I want people to know that my word or my handshake means its a done deal.

Until you declare bankruptcy I guess.

Anyway, if the laws are there then they need to be followed; if the collection agency doesn't follow them then they deserve to get sued. Simple really.


[edit on 28-1-2010 by TheComte]

Take the time to read all my posts before trying to judge. I was a stupid kid who lived off credit cards trying to support myself and my schooling for 4 years from 18years old till 22. No family to help with that so I was on my own and thought I could get out of college, get a good job and repay my debts. I had all intentions on paying my debt unlike what many on here are advocating. In the end it turned out that I was wrong to think I'd easily cover those debts. By the time I figured out that I was in trouble it was way too late and a bankruptcy was about the only thing left to do. What I did when I was 20, on my own, and with a family to support is irrelevant to my stated opinion that people need to take responsibility for their actions. I messed up and paid the price, but my bad debt was not done on purpose. I did not take something from a business knowing I had no intentions on paying them back. Again read my posts before judging....

Originally posted by timski

Originally posted by jaysconspiracy
Not that long ago I got myself in a world of credit card debt. I did my best to pay but eventually it snowballed and I had to file bankruptcy. [...]

Are you going to do your best to be a man ( or woman ) of your word, or are you another leech wants it all but isnt willing to work for it?

You'll not get far in a career in finance by just giving-up and resigning to writing off a debt/filing for bankrupcy (as either a financier or consumer)

I'm paying off credit debts that were well-considered when taken out and the money spent, and with the full knowledge of what the calculated repayments would be, and honoured to meet those repayments honestly and can still meet those obligations easily within my means despite being on a breadline income

However, when I happened to let my eye off the ball for one moment and accidentally missed a payment, the lender swung into full-scale collection tactics to secure the missing payment, and in the course of their doing so, made several legal errors. I settled the missing payment promptly but refused to honour the penalty charges imposed as they had broken a key banking and financial regulation, so my non-payment of that additional charge was in effect a penalty-charge against the bank

So I am now in the position of enforcing exactly the same tactics and regulations that the banks use to secure penalties from debtors, against themselves.

Both contractual parties agreed to play on the same field and be bound by the same rules at the time of signing the contract. If you choose not to enforce those rules that bind the bank, just as they do to you, then more fool you.

If you read any small-print on any financial contract, it states (to the effect that) any wilful action in an attempt to mislead, misconstrue, or fraudulently obtain money will effectively render the contract as terminated.

On the banks side this means that all monies lent are immediately repayable, and legal action sought. On the consumers side, this means that all monies lent cannot be claimed, and legal action sought.

You took the cheap and easy option of bankrupcy...

I'm playing by the banks own interpretations of the rules they seek to enforce to ensure I win...and you have to work damn hard to get that victory too

Its amazing just how much people assume. Who says I took the easy way out? How do you know if I filed for a bk the day I was in debt, or if I worked 3 jobs for some years in an attempt to make things right. How do you know if I'm a single father of 3 who lost his wife ( and obviously any household income that came alone with my wife), had the bills pilling up, was on my own so could no longer work 3 jobs and care for my kids.. When the banks say you are about to loose your home unless you pay, and when I had no more room on those credit cards to put a band aid on my bills then I was forced to make a decision. Take my children to the local shelter, or file a bankruptcy, save my house and try to have a normal a life as possible for my kids.... But I guess you probably knew all of that....

reply to post by timski


"You'll not get far in a career in finance by just giving-up and resigning to writing off a debt/filing for bankrupcy"

Thanks for your sincere concern, but considering I've been a manager at the same corporation since 12/98, I'm gonna suggest that I've already gone far with my career in finance.....

I would just like to point out that I am about 8000 dollars in unsecured debt, and useing my 10,000 tax return to get out of it. It takes planning, but you can get out of debt with out scamming anyone. I would also like to point out that you do not need a 7 bedroom house and 5 cars to be happy. You could just buy used sofas and TVs, get stuff at the goodwill and ebay and be better off then most people in india. You could buy a second hand car, walk or use mass transit if you live in an area that has it. You could cook all of your own meals and drink tap water. You can live off of rice and soya. You will survive. I really do think that people need to live inside of there means. I had to take a pay cut of about 3500 a month when I was moved for my job. So I trimmed the bills, and hunkered down until tax season. Now my only debt will be the new car I foolishly bought. I do not belive that any man or woman should give thier word and then bail on it. Where is the honor? Where is the honesty?

I am in favor of burning the dept collectors, they are really just thugs with a phone, but to just not pay, no good. Hollywood video claimed that I lost a DVD, I know I returned it. So for months we faught over it and then suddently I was being called by collectors. So I asked for proof and they backed off. I then got a hold of the regional Hollywood video manager and worked it out where I would not pay any fees, and just replace the dvd. That cut my debt to them down to 1/4 of what they wanted me to pay and both parties were happy. To just hide behind the law is a bit much though. I hate it when people play the rules, not the game.

Just to add to the discussion. When you are in debt, everyone likes to take advantage. This is what happens when law enforcement is know to do the bidding for debt collectors and attorneys that are scum.
New scum comes up with new ideas.

www.kake.com...

Attorney General Steve Six is cautioning Kansas consumers about telephone calls from apparent fake debt collectors who are impersonating law enforcement officers in an effort to extort money from consumers. Consumers are warned to not submit payments to these fraudulent debt collectors.

When calling, the scammers most often state they are attempting to collect a debt related to an internet payday loan obtained by the consumer, but which the consumer never repaid. Consumers state they have never obtained such a loan or paid off the loan years ago. The scam artists have most recently identified themselves as ACS, National Affidavit Processing Department and United Financial Crime Division, but may use additional phony names. It appears the phone numbers used by the scammers are “spoofed” numbers, so that the number appearing on a consumer’s caller ID is not the actual number of where the call originated. It appears the calls in question may be originating from outside the United States

The rest of the story on the link

No one here said anything about intentionally taking money with the purpose of not paying it back. The idea here is that when financial institutions use unethical means to take more from you than they give, there is nothing morally wrong with fighting back. Many of us have been victimized many times by such institutions who often have much more ability to take advantage of our ignorance than we have protection from their racket.

Secondly, you CANNOT live off of rice and soya. What an ignorant comment. The poor in our country often have to settle for food that is empty of any nutritional value, and often full of poisons and toxins. The human body needs many specific vitamins in varying amounts to stay healthy, and depriving it of whole amino acids present in fresh clean meats means it cannot produce the necessary neurotransmitters such as dopamine, seratonin, and nurepinephrine, which leads to depression. This makes it harder to work, to find happiness in life, and to get through our day. This might be survival, but its far from optimal and in my view is setting yourself up for failure. Please refrain from making such ridiculous comments in the future. Students in debt who get by on a diet of Ramen and corn flakes are doing themselves no favor, nor is the system that makes them think this is necessary or appropriate.

[edit on 29-1-2010 by pexx421]

Originally posted by Obinhi
I would just like to point out that I am about 8000 dollars in unsecured debt, and useing my 10,000 tax return to get out of it. It takes planning, but you can get out of debt with out scamming anyone. I would also like to point out that you do not need a 7 bedroom house and 5 cars to be happy. You could just buy used sofas and TVs, get stuff at the goodwill and ebay and be better off then most people in india. You could buy a second hand car, walk or use mass transit if you live in an area that has it. You could cook all of your own meals and drink tap water. You can live off of rice and soya. You will survive. I really do think that people need to live inside of there means. I had to take a pay cut of about 3500 a month when I was moved for my job. So I trimmed the bills, and hunkered down until tax season. Now my only debt will be the new car I foolishly bought. I do not belive that any man or woman should give thier word and then bail on it. Where is the honor? Where is the honesty?

I am in favor of burning the dept collectors, they are really just thugs with a phone, but to just not pay, no good. Hollywood video claimed that I lost a DVD, I know I returned it. So for months we faught over it and then suddently I was being called by collectors. So I asked for proof and they backed off. I then got a hold of the regional Hollywood video manager and worked it out where I would not pay any fees, and just replace the dvd. That cut my debt to them down to 1/4 of what they wanted me to pay and both parties were happy. To just hide behind the law is a bit much though. I hate it when people play the rules, not the game.

Trust me, I hated bill collectors calling when I was a young idiot who fell behind. And some can be rude which there is no place for... But the collectors in my finance company have names and faces. They are married and have children. I'm not "in favor of burning the dept collectors" since they are just doing their jobs. Yes I'd want to kick their butts if they are rude to me, but if I'm the person who didnt pay my bills, and I'm the one who avoided calling the bank about it, then why be made when the bank has someone call me to find out what my intentions are? If you borrowed money from me and didnt pay me back or even bother to call, you better believe I'd call you up with good reason! Some of those collectors we want to throw under the bus are the first people to donate when our company does our charity work. They found a job that pays the bills and supports their family and they are stuck in that job till something better comes along. Being a collector sucks. Having everyone hate you and threaten you and yell at you sucks. They don't enjoy asking you for money but it puts food in their mouths at the end of the week..

reply to post by jaysconspiracy


I don't need to read all your posts to know that in the first one you admonish people for not paying their debts while at the same time not paying your own. Doesn't matter how old you were.

And I'm surprised a financial institution hired someone to manage finances who declared bankruptcy himself.

reply to post by jaysconspiracy

What kind of world are we living in!!?? People on here are cheering the idea of not paying any more of their debts and saying " to hell with them" to all the people they borrowed from.

I suggest you educate yourself about fractional reserve banking. The credit card debt and the mortgage debt is nothing but fairy dust. It was NOT borrowed from anyone, it was CREATED OUT OF THIN AIR BY THE BANKS!!!!!

If the money was borrowed from someone than you are correct, but bank created fiat money (counterfeit) that you pay back with your labor and then have to pay interest on at 30+% is entirely different. In most cases the original amount of the loan has been paid but because of the USURY interest rate people can not get out from under the payments since the amount doubles every three years. That is why we are cheering for someone who has figured out how to fight back.

Sunday, March 29, 2009
*****US Banks Operating Without Reserve Requirements*****
by Eric deCarbonnel

Banks typically have 3% of their assets in cash in order to meet customer needs. Since 1960, banks have been allowed to use this “vault cash” to satisfy their reserve requirements. Today, bank reserve requirements have fallen to the point where they are now exceeded by vault cash, which means lowering reserve requirements to zero would have virtually no impact on the banking system. US banks are already operating free of any reserve constraints. The graph below shows reserve requirements falling to zero over the last fifty years.
www.marketskeptics.com...

This mean 100% of the amount loaned to you by the bank was created on the spot using a data entry on the ledger, THAT is the "counterfeit money" you are paying back with your labor. Slavery without having to deal with the care and feeding of the slaves.

Originally posted by crimvelvet
reply to post by jaysconspiracy

 

What kind of world are we living in!!?? People on here are cheering the idea of not paying any more of their debts and saying " to hell with them" to all the people they borrowed from.

I suggest you educate yourself about fractional reserve banking. The credit card debt and the mortgage debt is nothing but fairy dust. It was NOT borrowed from anyone, it was CREATED OUT OF THIN AIR BY THE BANKS!!!!!

If the money was borrowed from someone than you are correct, but bank created fiat money (counterfeit) that you pay back with your labor and then have to pay interest on at 30+% is entirely different. In most cases the original amount of the loan has been paid but because of the USURY interest rate people can not get out from under the payments since the amount doubles every three years. That is why we are cheering for someone who has figured out how to fight back.

Sunday, March 29, 2009
*****US Banks Operating Without Reserve Requirements*****
by Eric deCarbonnel

Banks typically have 3% of their assets in cash in order to meet customer needs. Since 1960, banks have been allowed to use this “vault cash” to satisfy their reserve requirements. Today, bank reserve requirements have fallen to the point where they are now exceeded by vault cash, which means lowering reserve requirements to zero would have virtually no impact on the banking system. US banks are already operating free of any reserve constraints. The graph below shows reserve requirements falling to zero over the last fifty years.
www.marketskeptics.com...

This mean 100% of the amount loaned to you by the bank was created on the spot using a data entry on the ledger, THAT is the "counterfeit money" you are paying back with your labor. Slavery without having to deal with the care and feeding of the slaves.

I do not need to educate myself. I understand what you are spouting out, but it doesn't change my opinion. If you agree to do something, do it....

reply to post by TheComte


Maybe the company that hired me was aware of the tragic events that took place and hired a person they knew would be a good worker regardless of the situation he found himself in. In the end I guess they were right since I'm now running the business whereas you are likely waiting for your shift to flip burgers. My point all along has been that people do make mistakes and I hold nothing against a person who did their best but failed. I do have a problem with someone who chose to rip a person or company off after agreeing to borrow and pay money back.

reply to post by jaysconspiracy


Actually, you're close. I retired at age 37 and now live off my investments and dividend income. But you go right on running the business... Just come down off your saddle because you're no better than anyone here and certainly have no right to admonish people for not paying their debts.

reply to post by TheComte


Actually I was quick to admit that I was no better than anyone else. Hence the long wordy emails explaining my shortfalls. It's my opinion that people should not knowingly enter into contracts they do not plan to honor. Likewise I disagree with the person who initially planned to pay, but eventually became upset and decided that all creditors are evil and shouldn't be paid. If I were on a moral high horse, I would not mention the bankruptcy. I would not admit my own major shortfalls. It was a humbling experience to go through while trying to cope with traumatic personal and financial changes in my life. I am not proud of what happened. But I am proud to say that if I give someone my word or signature that I intend on honoring that word.

Originally posted by jaysconspiracy
What kind of world are we living in!!?? People on here are cheering the idea of not paying any more of their debts and saying " to hell with them" to all the people they borrowed from. It should come to no shock that we live in a crumbling society where unemployment is up and the desire to work hard is way down. Everyone expects a golden life to just be handed to them. Not that long ago I got myself in a world of credit card debt. I did my best to pay but eventually it snowballed and I had to file bankruptcy. I felt ashamed by giving these companies my word and then not coming through on my debt. You are the moron who had to borrow and now you are mad at the person who was willing to take a chance on you and lend you money!?????????? Look in a perfect world everything would be free, but in the real world it doesn't work that way. So at the end of the day you have to decide what type of person you are going to be. Are you going to do your best to be a man ( or woman ) of your word, or are you another leech wants it all but isnt willing to work for it? Don't borrow if you cant pay for it!!! Take some responsibility for yourself!! Bailing on your debts just raises costs and interest on the paying people!

The only you havent done is cheer. You still bailed on your debts. Kind of hypocritical to chastise others for doing the same thing you did.