911 Poll

Originally posted by TrickoftheShade
Can you point to the bit where they were going to kill US citizens?

Because that's what you said was illegal.

No, I said they were planning on sinking a boatload of Cubans, "real or simulated."

Go read my posts. You're confusing me with someone else. Not surprising.


Not like it makes any difference either way as far as what a lawyer that formerly gave President Kennedy's counsel said about such a false-flag plan being "obviously" illegal. Man, you guys just don't give up even when something is obvious. Habit I guess.

[edit on 4-2-2010 by bsbray11]

Originally posted by ET_MAN
reply to post by impressme

 

911 was more than just an inside job.

The inside government had ZERO control over it.

Who really pulls the strings, anyone?

I agree with you it was more than an inside job!
I hope you got the answer to your question?.......I'm all ears!

ZZ :0

reply to post by impressme


No.

Have they ever told the complete truth about anything?

If a majority of American citizens believe that the events of 9/11 are suspicious, or ascribe to the Truth Movement narrative of events then that leads me to two thoughts.


-- How did they get there? The TM famously derides the MSM for not covering their version. We can't assume that most Americans have access to alternative media, so why do they think what they do?

If you accept that you in the TM believe what you do because of your meticulous research, what does the fact that millions of people who've done no research and have a flimsy understanding of the issues have reached the same conclusions as you?


-- Why isn't there a national outcry? Are Americans really so spineless and cowed that they are prepared to accept a government that murders them and sends them to war on false pretexts?

Originally posted by TrickoftheShade


-- Why isn't there a national outcry? Are Americans really so spineless and cowed that they are prepared to accept a government that murders them and sends them to war on false pretexts?

BINGO

Sad isn't it.

Think about it, how many times on this site, and in Real Life, do you hear people use terms like.

"He's gonna get himself killed"

"I'm surprised he's not dead yet".

Originally posted by TrickoftheShade
-- How did they get there? The TM famously derides the MSM for not covering their version. We can't assume that most Americans have access to alternative media, so why do they think what they do?

Why does anyone "think what they do"? Think about it. I'm talking about everything people think, not just your idea of paranoid crazy types because not this many people are just clinical paranoids schizos and you know it. People believe things because they MAKE SENSE to them.

If you accept that you in the TM believe what you do because of your meticulous research, what does the fact that millions of people who've done no research and have a flimsy understanding of the issues have reached the same conclusions as you?

Because your position is so obviously ill-informed, though you completely refuse to see it at every turn. Not everyone is allergic to the belief that their own leaders would try such a thing, especially if these leaders were confident it couldn't be linked back to them.

-- Why isn't there a national outcry? Are Americans really so spineless and cowed that they are prepared to accept a government that murders them and sends them to war on false pretexts?

Tell us specifically what we should be doing. Because trying to spread awareness by correcting people like you to no end is the most practical use of my time I know to dedicate to this. Others have tried legal routes and we have already seen cases thrown out of court before they are even tried on "states secrets" privileges such as what John Ashcroft invoked on whistleblower Sibel Edmonds to prevent her from giving testimony that her FBI supervisors were intentionally misleading agents in the field from figuring out what was happening prior to 9/11. She still has had 0 success with her case despite working with the FBI first hand and having all the lawyers, going through all the proper procedures, etc., she can't even be heard at a trial. Not to mention I don't personally have the money to hire the lawyers and those sorts of things. But nonetheless others have already tried all these things, so this question of yours is on a false premise to begin with unless you are talking about taking guns to the street. And you know without a doubt YOU would not even do that.

No, the government has not told us the truth with the official story.

Originally posted by bsbray11
Why does anyone "think what they do"? Think about it. I'm talking about everything people think, not just your idea of paranoid crazy types because not this many people are just clinical paranoids schizos and you know it. People believe things because they MAKE SENSE to them.

You've missed the point.

You contend that your view is privileged, the result of research and a special understanding of the issues. And yet a majority of Americans - whom you also contend cannot have access to the same information - also feel as you do.

My question wasn't abstract. I mean how have they actually arrived at this way of thinking? They don't have the information because the MSM, which is what they consume, lies to them. They must therefore think that something "just looks wrong" and then mix that with a general distrust of government to arrive at at TM-compliant position.

Because your position is so obviously ill-informed, though you completely refuse to see it at every turn. Not everyone is allergic to the belief that their own leaders would try such a thing, especially if these leaders were confident it couldn't be linked back to them.

I'm not ill-informed though. I know considerable amounts about 9/11, certainly more than the average person in the street.

Or are you saying that learning the Truth about 9/11 is conditional on research, on becoming "informed"? Because if that's the case your poll refutes this idea: most people in the US are notwell informed about 9/11, and yet they agree with you, not me.

Tell us specifically what we should be doing. Because trying to spread awareness by correcting people like you to no end is the most practical use of my time I know to dedicate to this.

Is it really? That seems an almost completely useless waste of time to me. I've seen no evidence that you've ever changed anyone's mind. I've followed your posts for some time and you've never found anything that has remotely made me think of altering my position one iota. You are on an internet forum. Smacking your head against a wall.

You should be out in the streets, trying to convert people who might be interested in the issue (or, to my mind, are thick enough to fall for your spin, but that's another point).

You ought to be lending your time and talents to organisations that are attempting to put this on the national agenda. If you spent as much time organising fund raising or mailouts or a grass roots legal campaign as you do on here then you would actually be contributing something.

You've written before - to my mind with some naivety - about your admiration for real American patriots and their battles for freedom. Do you think they'd be grumbling on a forum, or out there doing something?

The reality is that for you a continuous state of glorious failure is actually a far preferable state of affairs, because it allows you to persist with your comforting sense of superiority. It's pretty obvious that for you 9/11 is a way of demonstrating that you have some sort of intellectual authority, an ability to "see beneath" that others lack. As such your self worth is probably tied up with maintaining this state of affairs, not demolishing it.

Others have tried legal routes and we have already seen cases thrown out of court before they are even tried on "states secrets" privileges such as what John Ashcroft invoked on whistleblower Sibel Edmonds to prevent her from giving testimony that her FBI supervisors were intentionally misleading agents in the field from figuring out what was happening prior to 9/11. She still has had 0 success with her case despite working with the FBI first hand and having all the lawyers, going through all the proper procedures, etc., she can't even be heard at a trial. Not to mention I don't personally have the money to hire the lawyers and those sorts of things.

That's why you have to organise. It's the only worthwhile use of your talents if you're serious about this issue. No revolutionary movement - and that it was 9/11 Truth effectively is - has ever been the product of a single individual's activities.

If you're right and a majority support you then victory is possible. But why am I not surprised that you prefer to see it as insurmountable?

unless you are talking about taking guns to the street. And you know without a doubt YOU would not even do that.

No. But I don't think the government has murdered my compatriots in order to embark on an imperialistic orgy. If I did, then I definitely would.

Or at the very least I'd do more than fiddle about on an internet forum.

Originally posted by TrickoftheShade
If a majority of American citizens believe that the events of 9/11 are suspicious, or ascribe to the Truth Movement narrative of events then that leads me to two thoughts.


-- How did they get there? The TM famously derides the MSM for not covering their version. We can't assume that most Americans have access to alternative media, so why do they think what they do?

If you accept that you in the TM believe what you do because of your meticulous research, what does the fact that millions of people who've done no research and have a flimsy understanding of the issues have reached the same conclusions as you?


-- Why isn't there a national outcry? Are Americans really so spineless and cowed that they are prepared to accept a government that murders them and sends them to war on false pretexts?

How did they get there? It was obvious to anyone who isn't in a hypnotic trance that there was something wrong with the whole dog and pony show as it unfolded. As I watched the TV replay of plane #2 hitting the WTC I said it aloud: "This is the work of the CIA. Hijackings don't happen this way in America." It was a gut reaction, based on a lifetime of observation and experience. So then, there is no logical context for subquestion 1a. Some in the Truth Movement have come to their conclusions through research. Some have turned to research to rebut the assertions of OS proponents. Some have done no research, and some have researched to find evidence to support their gut reactions. Meticulous research is not required to disbelieve the highly improbable scenarios presented in the media, nor is it necessary to find the contradictory reactions of the Bush administration, FBI, et al disingenuine. Therefore your question is unnecessary and meaningless, and its implications negated.

In short, the whole of the experience was too ludicrous for most people to accept, although the mind-numbing and hypnotic repetition of the OS did quell some of the outcry against it with the fear that there would be more attacks. Attacks which, if you haven't noticed, failed to occur.

Why hasn't there been a public outcry against it? What rock have you been living under? There has been plenty of public outcry against it! But as it was with the Kennedy assassination, so it goes with this as well. The old adage is that you can't fight city hall. Does this mean that Americans are spineless and cowed? Yes, in many ways it does. The futility of standing against the government, regardless of its transgressions against us, is woven deeply into the fabric of our lives. That does not mean those transgressions do not take place. It only means that avenues of effective response are non-existent.

hells no.

why do i not believe them?

because they've lied before and they'll do it again.

our silence is consent, for them to get away with anything that they want to...

let's raise our voices a little, shall we? maybe just once wouldn't hurt, right?...

reply to post by without_prejudice


This seems to me an eminently comforting way of looking at 9/11.

My point is simply that your reaction is not unusual. Indeed to me the Truth Movement is just a search for meaning carried out by people for whom the event was cataclysmic to their world view. It's an attempt to reimagine things in a pre-9/11, post-cold war mould, where power (albeit venal and destructive) is American.

To me the TM is an extension of that visceral feeling you had, that something wasn't right. In its eagerness to validate this feeling the TM searches, ever more despairingly, for a comfortable explanation.

Like the bad scientist starting with an assumption (something is "wrong") everything the TM employs is marshaled to that task. It's just that, IMO, what you were feeling was not the shock of insight, but fear.

No, of course they haven't told us the truth about the events of 9/11. What can we do to expose the cover-up; and, how do we get around the label of conspiracy theorists when trying to discuss these events? There are many good videos on the subject that anyone with any understanding of basic physics could use to come to understand that we have not been told the truth; we need a way to get people to approach the subject with an open mind. Any suggestions?

Originally posted by TrickoftheShade
reply to post by without_prejudice

 

This seems to me an eminently comforting way of looking at 9/11.

My point is simply that your reaction is not unusual. Indeed to me the Truth Movement is just a search for meaning carried out by people for whom the event was cataclysmic to their world view. It's an attempt to reimagine things in a pre-9/11, post-cold war mould, where power (albeit venal and destructive) is American.

To me the TM is an extension of that visceral feeling you had, that something wasn't right. In its eagerness to validate this feeling the TM searches, ever more despairingly, for a comfortable explanation.

Like the bad scientist starting with an assumption (something is "wrong") everything the TM employs is marshaled to that task. It's just that, IMO, what you were feeling was not the shock of insight, but fear.

I quoted your post because while , a nice bit of penmanship, it's incorrect.

I was , like you, happy in my delusion for a long time. I owe my awakening to , of all people , Bill O'reilly.

Bout 2 years ago, I came across the vid of him Berating Jeremy Glick.

Jeremy held firm , it wasn't Hi-jackers , but the US gov.

So I researched , and here we are.

There are more like me, the TM is waking more up daily.

Originally posted by TrickoftheShade

Originally posted by bsbray11
Why does anyone "think what they do"? Think about it. I'm talking about everything people think, not just your idea of paranoid crazy types because not this many people are just clinical paranoids schizos and you know it. People believe things because they MAKE SENSE to them.

You've missed the point.

Yeah, I probably would've "missed the point" by saying anything other than, "You're right, I'm completely insane." Right?

You contend that your view is privileged, the result of research and a special understanding of the issues. And yet a majority of Americans - whom you also contend cannot have access to the same information - also feel as you do.

I never claimed no one had access to this information or that I have any special privileges. That part is coming from you.

My question wasn't abstract. I mean how have they actually arrived at this way of thinking?

How did you arrive at your way of thinking? Do you think special rules apply to me and everyone else here you don't agree with? If that were really the case, and we're all retards, don't you think we'd have had some inclination by now, besides all the name-calling and other berating we get from the JREF'er types? All throughout public schooling they did the opposite for me, put me in a bunch of "gifted" classes until I opted out of them myself. I have gone on ranting about the value of independent thinking and being confident in your own mind before on here, and just been mocked for it, as usual. So I'll save it this time.

They don't have the information because the MSM, which is what they consume, lies to them. They must therefore think that something "just looks wrong" and then mix that with a general distrust of government to arrive at at TM-compliant position.

You know, we give you good reason here every day to doubt what they say, but you never fail to find a way to dismiss anything we say. Even when it's obvious we have made a logical point you'll divert away from it and try to obfuscate it into something else. You know you do it because you do it consciously, and I know that you know that you do it consciously. I can tell you for one thing you will NEVER be able to debunk these conspiracy theories so long as you can't establish what in the hell was causing all of those explosions throughout all 3 buildings that day. And no, I don't for a second believe it was all because of fire on an isolated set of floors, way up in the air in the case of the towers. You also damned well know by now that many/most of the reported explosions came from the basements, the same place that was bombed in 1993, and the FBI officials even told MSM on that very morning they suspected car bombs had been detonated at the same time the planes hit and there are even still videos of this. And you know that's not even the tip of the iceberg. And you wonder why people believe this stuff?

I'm not ill-informed though. I know considerable amounts about 9/11, certainly more than the average person in the street.

Sure, but so do I. So we are both well-informed but still completely divided on an extremely controversial/emotional issue for Americans. And you think it's because some "truther movement" invented a bunch of fake evidence and brainwashed me, right?

Or are you saying that learning the Truth about 9/11 is conditional on research, on becoming "informed"? Because if that's the case your poll refutes this idea: most people in the US are notwell informed about 9/11, and yet they agree with you, not me.

I have never cared what most people think and I will continue not to care until the day I die. For years, do you know how often people such as yourself would rub it in my face that I belonged to a minority? I don't care. And I agree as a rule Americans are very misinformed, intentionally, but only by the obvious mass sources that are controlled by their obvious corporate masters. Not by a few book-writers sneaking around behind your back brainwashing us into buying their books or any other of that kind of nonsense. THAT is a conspiracy theory I don't buy. I don't even trust Alex Jones.

Is it really? That seems an almost completely useless waste of time to me.

Nah, I've received plenty enough u2us and people thanking me on threads for posting various sources of information, that I know I am contributing, even if very little.

I've seen no evidence that you've ever changed anyone's mind.

That's forgivable because you aren't me.

I've followed your posts for some time and you've never found anything that has remotely made me think of altering my position one iota.

And that doesn't surprise me at all, but you know the sentiment is mutual brother. So why are YOU here? Besides giving me a nice sock puppet and means of educating others to information most people STILL are not aware of.

You should be out in the streets, trying to convert people who might be interested in the issue (or, to my mind, are thick enough to fall for your spin, but that's another point).

Nah, that's what a real "nut job" would do. I can tell you are just thinking of me as your classic looney. I'm flattered. Is this what YOU would do if you were convinced 9/11 was an inside job? Stand in the street harassing strangers? Yeah, don't think so.

You ought to be lending your time and talents to organisations that are attempting to put this on the national agenda. If you spent as much time organising fund raising or mailouts or a grass roots legal campaign as you do on here then you would actually be contributing something.

No, then you would just accuse me of trying to scam people out of their money. Trust me, everything we do, you are so biased, you can marginalize it or explain it in a different way, even if absurd and totally ill-founded. I wouldn't even try to collect money from people for this cause. Hell, you can't even write a book about 9/11 being an inside job without the automatic dismissal of "you're just trying to scam people out of money." If others want to donate it to various causes that's fine. I was also briefly a student member of the Scholars for 9/11 Truth group but I accomplished even less there than I have just posting here.

You've written before - to my mind with some naivety - about your admiration for real American patriots and their battles for freedom. Do you think they'd be grumbling on a forum, or out there doing something?

Unless they are already in a position of power, "grumbling on a forum." At least for now. I already told you legal options are neither affordable or practical for me. I'm sure you would have a field day if I went to NY or DC wielding a shot gun, so I'd be in all the papers and you could tell all your buddies you used to argue with that nutter online every day. Sorry, but I'm not an idiot. There is a time and place for everything, and the time for that isn't now.

The reality is that for you a continuous state of glorious failure is actually a far preferable state of affairs, because it allows you to persist with your comforting sense of superiority.

Arguing with you on a daily basis doesn't make me feel superior. If anything it's one of the dirtiest ways I spend my time and I consider it a chore just to keep all the doublethink nonsense where it belongs.

It's pretty obvious that for you 9/11 is a way of demonstrating that you have some sort of intellectual authority, an ability to "see beneath" that others lack. As such your self worth is probably tied up with maintaining this state of affairs, not demolishing it.

You say that's pretty obvious but it must be equally obvious to me that you are projecting exactly what you yourself are doing here. If I just wanted to gloat over how much more I know than everybody else then I would stay out of the 9/11 forums and in the philosophy forum. I don't enjoy having to point out logical fallacy after logical fallacy with basic thinking every time someone makes some nonsense claim like they know for a fact the explosions weren't caused by explosives based on their opinion alone, for example. I don't know whether to laugh or cry at that kind of "thinking."

That's why you have to organise. It's the only worthwhile use of your talents if you're serious about this issue. No revolutionary movement - and that it was 9/11 Truth effectively is - has ever been the product of a single individual's activities.

Says the person who already dismisses multiple non-profit organizations of hundreds of relevant professionals out of hand. Wait for it -- here comes the excuse as to why that's somehow different. Probably because "they have no evidence," yeah, I can already see it coming.

If you're right and a majority support you then victory is possible. But why am I not surprised that you prefer to see it as insurmountable?

I didn't say it was insurmountable and I don't actually believe that. So you're completely projecting your own thoughts again. Though this is by far the most interesting projection you have made so far, if you really believe we are full of crap.

No. But I don't think the government has murdered my compatriots in order to embark on an imperialistic orgy. If I did, then I definitely would.

And you would end up dead or in prison with nothing to show for it. It's easy enough to say you would go shooting off guns but I don't believe for a second you would actually do it before a full-fledged war breaks out first.

Originally posted by Sean48
I was , like you, happy in my delusion for a long time. I owe my awakening to , of all people , Bill O'reilly.

That's ironic because I considered myself conservative/republican too until the likes of Bill O'Reilly and Sean Hannity started making me sick to my stomach on a daily basis. Not so much because of their beliefs as much as because of how vitriolic they are as "human beings."

Around the same time I first saw WTC7 collapse I finally decided there are no political parties for me anymore.

no they have not told the truth

Any cursory look at the official story raises red flags

I don't know what happened on 9/11 but I know the US government isn't telling anything close to the truth

reply to post by bsbray11


Your exact words on the contract matter

You can be fired for that! I would like to see the contracts these guys sign to become members of the Joint Chiefs. I'm SURE there is a clause that states they can be fired without even requiring a reason.

When I called you on the fact that you do not sign a contract to become one of the Joint Chiefs, you changed it to signing a contract to join the military.

Originally posted by Swampfox46_1999

You can be fired for that! I would like to see the contracts these guys sign to become members of the Joint Chiefs. I'm SURE there is a clause that states they can be fired without even requiring a reason.

When I called you on the fact that you do not sign a contract to become one of the Joint Chiefs, you changed it to signing a contract to join the military.

Fine, I don't know exactly what is required to become a member of the Joint Chiefs. They still signed a contract though, under which they can be relieved for illegal activity, so my point is still valid.


And are you still disputing what a real lawyer, Kennedy's own adviser no less, had to say about such a plan, to start a war under false pretenses? Not just illegal but "OBVIOUSLY" illegal, and this guy is presidential adviser material. His word against......

I'm man enough to admit a boo-boo. Are you?

reply to post by impressme


911 was an inside job...neocon, zionist, mossad/cia operation.
Just follow the money.

911