911 OS Debate Facts, Bring sources, not Opinions

Originally posted by Swampfox46_1999
reply to post by Sean48

 

An open unbiased investigation , lets put this puppy to bed.

No such animal. ANY investigation is going to involve the FBI, CIA, NIST, FAA, DoD etc...... And those are all agencies that you will not accept anything from.

I do realize sir, that any investigation would have those agencies
involved , They would have to be there, when the True Story is finally
revealed, the Implications will rock the US like nothing before .

The real story will surface , maybe not today , or tommorrow, but it
will.

reply to post by Sean48


The "true story" is already in public knowledge.

Sorry, but it was a LACK OF INTEL, and an attack was mounted.

Here's the truly scary part....it COULD happen again, and only BECAUSE of all of this internet chatter!!!!

If any of you truly wished to defeat the terrorists, you would stop.

Those of us who post here know this...we ALSO cannot reveal certain information that would be useful to future attackers.

Problem is, even WHEN it does happen again (and we saw it with the pahtetic "underwear bomber") sites like this will just keep propagating the ingnorance , and that is sad.....

BEFORE you go off on the next incident, LEARN, please!!!!!

Study, learn, and stop reacting to emotions....because if you react that way, you fall for the trap....

Originally posted by Swampfox46_1999
And I rarely believe everything I hear from a general....especially THIS one...

en.wikipedia.org...

Walking through a wall and staring down a goat....yep, that qualifies him to be an expert in plane crashes.

Funny how you chastise Stubblebine for this when it was actually the US Army who thought they could create soldiers who could walk through walls and kill goats by staring at them.

So, do you believe everything the US Army tells you?

The Men Who Stare at Goats (2004) is a book by Jon Ronson based on research by John Sergeant[1] about the U.S. Army's exploration of New Age concepts and the potential military applications of the paranormal. The title refers to attempts to kill goats by staring at them.

en.wikipedia.org...

But, according to you, it was only Stubblebine who thought this. And not your precious Army.



[edit on 25-1-2010 by Nutter]

Originally posted by pteridine
Stubblebine was the guy who routinely tried to walk through walls. This is detailed in the book "The men who stare at goats."

I would be leery of comments from this person, no matter what his final rank. There are fruitcakes and there are also General Officer fruitcakes.

Obviously it wasn't only Stubblebine who thought this. Or the Army wouldn't have had a division exclusively devoted to this.

[edit on 25-1-2010 by Nutter]

Originally posted by weedwhacker


Sorry, but it was a LACK OF INTEL, and an attack was mounted.

Here's the truly scary part....it COULD happen again, and only BECAUSE of all of this internet chatter!!!!

If any of you truly wished to defeat the terrorists, you would stop.

Those of us who post here know this...we ALSO cannot reveal certain information that would be useful to future attackers.


Study, learn, and stop reacting to emotions....because if you react that way, you fall for the trap....

Dude.
they had more intel, knew where these terrorist were .

"Cannot reveal certain information'

Puh -lezz

No body is reacting to anything on the truther side, you are the ones begging

and pleading for us to go away!!!!

If we wished to defeat the terrorist we would stop?

The Terrorist are the perpatrators of 911, the US Government

reply to post by Nutter


Why am I not surprised you missed the last part of my post...

What part of trying to walk through walls makes him an expert in aircraft accidents?

reply to post by Sean48


Sean,

You are right. We did have a lot of intelligence. Unfortunately, due to the laws we had in place in 2001, it was scattered across the desks of different departments in several different agencies. No one person had all the information necessary to come up with a complete picture. CIA might have know about plans to hijack an airplane....but by law couldnt share it with FBI agents that were investigating Flight School students....or the NSA might have had an intercept about cash transfers but couldnt give it to either the CIA or the FBI......and few government bureaucrats were going to risk jail by breaking the laws we had in place.

reply to post by TrickoftheShade

Originally posted by TrickoftheShade
What a tiresome thread. What a waste of time. It seems only to exist to validate Impressme's usual tactic of venerating his own sources as "creditable", while calling everyone else a "lair" who is just expressing "opinions".

If you decide beforehand which sources you think are credible and which you are allowed to just wave away because they are bogus, then you are not going to get far. Writing a long thread about what you consider "creditable" (which seems to simply consist of things that agree with your assertions) doesn't help matters.

Your accusations are entirely false and you know that.

The only thing I support is only “scientific facts” that you OS believers continually to ignore.
If I hand wave something it is because you are only given your opinions to your information with ”no creditable sources” and you know that, don’t you?

What a tiresome thread.

Really, it wasn’t “tiresome” for you to post all your negative opinions about me though, was it?

Writing a long thread about what you consider "creditable" (which seems to simply consist of things that agree with your assertions) doesn't help matters.

My thread has nothing, absolutely nothing, to do with what I think is creditable?

This is what I said:

If you are going to debate an issues with a person please bring creditable internet sources to back your claim.
Leave out the insults.
Leave out proven disinformation, this is not a game.
If you state an opinion then please state it as your opinion.
Opinions are not facts.
Leave out your emotions when debating your topic, stick to the facts and the topic.

Either, you cannot read well, or you enjoy twisting my message?

You ridicule me, because I like to bring “creditable sources” in my debate, that destroys the OS creditability.





[edit on 25-1-2010 by impressme]

Originally posted by Swampfox46_1999
reply to post by impressme

 

You have hand waved the FBI, the FDNY, the NYPD, the PAPD, the U.S. Air Force, CIA, New York Times, CBS, ABC, NIST, Cleveland Plain Dealer....


Anyone/anything that doesnt support your beliefs, you routinely declare a 'lie' or misinformation.

I thought the OP was about bringing facts and not opinions? Where is the proof of each of the above claims? You may be right but this thread is about facts. You are complaining that the OP writer dismisses your sources. This is two posts already with no sources attached so I thought I would do the noble thing and ask you to back this all up.

Start with explaining what a "Plain" dealer is.

I just want to point out that it only took 3 posts before someone decided to insult and derail. Was it someone looking for the truth, or someone who has trouble reading the OP. Just asking? Do not forget the facts!

[edit on 1/25/10 by Lillydale]

Originally posted by REMISNE

Originally posted by impressme
If there are no creditable sources to a story being presented by anyone, then it is most likely untrue, don’t you agree?

Problem is that people like swampfox do not even know what credable sources are.

To make a point; We often tell our kids not to put a butterknife in the electric socket, b/c we believe they could get seriously injured. When the child doesn't heed the warning, the child learns very suddenly that it's better to believe what parents say what not to do; providing they didn't die as a direct result. These tots grow-up at a slower rate than average citizens...Learning and discovering new truths is kinda like shock-therapy. Some are willing to go through with it in order to progress, some are not.

Originally posted by Dramey
god this 9/11 crap sucks


saw the title

thought


"hey a thread i can go into and it will be intelligent and actually discuss the facts"

Me too! I should have known better though as I remember another thread like this that begged for nothing but sources. That was it, just sources. It died in flames faster than this has survived so far.

so i open the thread, just quickly browse the 1st page, within like 2 posts instead of talking about the topic, people are talking about each other and opinions

Third post in, it was Swampfox. There is a reason people suspect certain others of being afraid of the truth. Sometimes people will say that they purposely derail threads and get personal but they do not really know the truth and are afraid of what it might turn out to be. I will let you decide if any of that matches up.

Lets seriously close this forum, it will never get anywhere and if any real knowledge is posted it will get lost in this retarded shuffle

Then you are going to have to shut down every 9/11 thread. You will also have to shut down these marvelous threads about buildings on Mars. Then you should also shut down the ones that insist anything is anything other than what it is (time traveling filmakers and such.) I am not sure that will somehow magically be more productive.

as politically incorrect as it is to say this, trying to follow a thread on 9/11 on ats is like watching a paraplegic mentally handicapped individual play musical chairs

...and yet here you are, typing and everything. We are all very proud of you. (clap clap) The music never started though so just go ahead and sit down anyway.

its just wrong, and it shouldnt be taking place, its completely retarded

Here I am typing along and wondering what facts am I adding to this thread. Then I read what I am replying to and I am reminded that people will go to almost any length to attempt to derail and insult for no reason other than to do it.

Just so you can all stay on track, anyone else that has anything to say that is not factual can just U2U me. I will take all the insults and from any side about any thing.

If all you have to offer is calling people "retartds" then it does more good in my inbox than in this thread.

Thanks in advance for letting the thread stay on topic from here on out.

[edit on 1/25/10 by Lillydale]

reply to post by Lillydale


He wanted some facts, I gave them to him. He (as well as you) routinely dismiss facts. So, the OP is rather pointless actually.

The Plain Dealer, is a newspaper in Cleveland...which investigated the whole "Flight 93 landed in Cleveland" garbage and published the facts....of which, again, were dismissed by the original poster.

[edit on 25-1-2010 by Swampfox46_1999]

reply to post by REMISNE

Problem is that people like swampfox do not even know what credable sources are.

Gee, Im sorry. I forgot that only Alex Jones, David Ray Griffin, Kevin Ryan, Thierry Meyssan, Richard Gage and Steven Jones are credible sources to the "truth" movement.

Originally posted by Swampfox46_1999
reply to post by Sean48

 

Sean,

You are right. We did have a lot of intelligence. Unfortunately, due to the laws we had in place in 2001, it was scattered across the desks of different departments in several different agencies. No one person had all the information necessary to come up with a complete picture. CIA might have know about plans to hijack an airplane....but by law couldnt share it with FBI agents that were investigating Flight School students....or the NSA might have had an intercept about cash transfers but couldnt give it to either the CIA or the FBI......and few government bureaucrats were going to risk jail by breaking the laws we had in place.

Who was responsible for making up Presidential Breifing Docs,

primarily Aug 6/01.?

I'm asking because I don't know.


[edit on 25-1-2010 by Sean48]

Originally posted by Swampfox46_1999
reply to post by Lillydale

 

He wanted some facts, I gave them to him. He (as well as you) routinely dismiss facts. So, the OP is rather pointless actually.

I am pretty sure I asked for facts. I asked you to back up your claims. You respond with more unfounded claims. When have I dismissed any facts? Care to share or are you going to ignore this like you always do when called on your outright lies? We will see. I am sure you will not be adult enough to just admit it was a lie though.

The Plain Dealer, is a newspaper in Cleveland...which investigated the whole "Flight 93 landed in Cleveland" garbage and published the facts....of which, again, were dismissed by the original poster.

Shucks thanks. I want to be polite but since you already told me how I react, I think I am supposed to dismiss that, right? Well, either back your claim up or pretend you did not say it like a liar and a coward. Thanks.
[edit on 25-1-2010 by Swampfox46_1999]

Originally posted by Sean48

Originally posted by Swampfox46_1999
reply to post by Sean48

 

Sean,

You are right. We did have a lot of intelligence. Unfortunately, due to the laws we had in place in 2001, it was scattered across the desks of different departments in several different agencies. No one person had all the information necessary to come up with a complete picture. CIA might have know about plans to hijack an airplane....but by law couldnt share it with FBI agents that were investigating Flight School students....or the NSA might have had an intercept about cash transfers but couldnt give it to either the CIA or the FBI......and few government bureaucrats were going to risk jail by breaking the laws we had in place.





It's really something to have all the resources in the world in one single government. It's entirely futile to compartmentalize these resources so that the brains don't/can't communicate with the heart.
These "laws" were put in place to serve what purpose? Why is the system Governing us flawed so blatantly? Or is that just my own opinion?

reply to post by Lillydale


i apologize for miscommunication


i am on your side, i support you and anyone else who wishes to ask questions, and gain knowledge in intelligent ways


there are no intelligent ways present in 9/11 threads here at ats, and in the few instances they might be, they are drowned by stupidity

when i said we should close the 9/11 forum, i meant specifically and only the 9/11 forum

why? simply because im here and you're here, and we are typing about why it should be closed, rather then speaking about any facts or sources anyone may have been able to give


i say 9/11 and no other topic, because no other topic, except religion has such absurd attributes associated with it

by that i mean you cant string together 3 posts without having the situation derailed every single time without fail


also i never derailed anything here, as it was never on track past the first few posts, which you yourself admitted to, by the 3rd post i believe the thread was offtopic and destined never to get past 5 mph even if the train left the station, the train simply never got started to get derailed, its engine attempted to turn over, but just wasnt able to start


on top of that, anyone who wants to bring the 9/11 subject to another forums threads can simply be banned


personally i think anyone who continues to detract from these threads should be banned if we are going to keep the 9/11 forum up

whoever starts the 1st post off topic, ban em, delete the post, anyone who does it next, ban em, delete the post, maybe ats will be a bit less crowded, but then maybe someone could actually read something of importance in a 9/11 topic



see thats another problem with the 9/11 threads, everyone is so hung up on being the right one in the situation, people dont even recognize others who are on the same team


the entire topic has become childish and nonsensical

the reason i support closing the whole 9/11 discussion on here is that is doesnt add anything positive to the situation, it just continues to make anyone who speaks the words 9/11 look crazy, insane, and/or a terrorist


george bush could come on this website, post audio, text, and pictures documenting every detail about how he was responsible for it (if he was responsible for it) and there would still be page after page of people attacking and arguing with each other blindly completely off topic


edited to say, only 2 posts above this post, i see you are still trying to keep things on topic, its not going to happen, a thread on 9/11 will never achieve anything here on ats except getting people banned, upsetting people, and making anyone looking for the truth look like a fool

[edit on 25-1-2010 by Dramey]

also wanted to specify i never called anyone in specific retarded, i meant that as a wide description of a group of people that includes the intelligent and non intelligent

as all of us can see by opening up any 9/11 thread, almost everyone at some point ends up looking dumb as almost everyone in the thread at some points gets caught up in the ridiculousness

through frustration and patience that has worn thin, i have seen incredibly intelligent people lower their intelligence to debate the rest who cause these derailments, when it comes to the 9/11 topic, ignorance is severely contagious

[edit on 25-1-2010 by Dramey]

reply to post by Swampfox46_1999

He wanted some facts, I gave them to him. He (as well as you) routinely dismiss facts. So, the OP is rather pointless actually.

You did not present any facts period. Where are they?
All you gave was your opinions, which were all untrue to begin with.

The Plain Dealer, is a newspaper in Cleveland...which investigated the whole "Flight 93 landed in Cleveland" garbage and published the facts...of which, again, were dismissed by the original poster.

I haven’t the faintest clue to what you are ranting about, however this thread is not about Cleveland….

Swampfox46_1999, you have been trying your best to railroad my thread from “page one.”


This is thread is not about what I “think” or my “beliefs” of 911 period.

All I asked, is if anyone makes a claim, then back it up with “creditable sources”!

How many of you OS believers think opinions are facts?

If opinions was all that are needed, in a “real debate” then we do not need sciences any more.
We should just shut down our sciences academics, in our schools and collages because some of you OS believers think “opinions” outweigh sciences.

Swampy, do you think “opinions” are “facts,” in a real debate?

Originally posted by Dramey
reply to post by Lillydale

 

i apologize for miscommunication


i am on your side, i support you and anyone else who wishes to ask questions, and gain knowledge in intelligent ways

Perhaps it was me then, I was agreeing with you for the most part. I was just saying that we need to endure this crap in order to have the options we have. It sucks but hey.

there are no intelligent ways present in 9/11 threads here at ats, and in the few instances they might be, they are drowned by stupidity

when i said we should close the 9/11 forum, i meant specifically and only the 9/11 forum

why? simply because im here and you're here, and we are typing about why it should be closed, rather then speaking about any facts or sources anyone may have been able to give

You and I are not the only people here though. It does not work that way. If it did, I would never have had to put up with half the crap that irritates me here. I would learn very little from this place as well.

i say 9/11 and no other topic, because no other topic, except religion has such absurd attributes associated with it

That is not true at all. Look at any thread on "buildings" on mars, Lego time machines, Lear, Titor, Hitchins, etc. Craziness abounds on ATS in all categories.

by that i mean you cant string together 3 posts without having the situation derailed every single time without fail

I know and I agree but do you really think not allowing anyone to speak on it is a better solution?

also i never derailed anything here, as it was never on track past the first few posts, which you yourself admitted to, by the 3rd post i believe the thread was offtopic and destined never to get past 5 mph even if the train left the station, the train simply never got started to get derailed, its engine attempted to turn over, but just wasnt able to start

So you think this off topic conversation we are having within the thread is helping it stay on topic?

on top of that, anyone who wants to bring the 9/11 subject to another forums threads can simply be banned

How open minded of you. I am pretty sure there are forums for just such things. If you only wish to discuss UFOs, go for it. There are other websites. There is also the simple fact that you get to choose which threads to read. If this one is bothering you so much so that you feel the need to advocating banning free speech on the topic, CLICK SOMETHING ELSE.

personally i think anyone who continues to detract from these threads should be banned if we are going to keep the 9/11 forum up

Ahem. (cough and shoulder nudge.)

whoever starts the 1st post off topic, ban em, delete the post, anyone who does it next, ban em, delete the post, maybe ats will be a bit less crowded, but then maybe someone could actually read something of importance in a 9/11 topic

...and you would not be here and you would not have posted off topic and I would not have responded to remind you of the topic and I would still be here. Sure, sound fine.

see thats another problem with the 9/11 threads, everyone is so hung up on being the right one in the situation, people dont even recognize others who are on the same team

I am not on a team. I am not here to play a game or for sport. This is not a team event to me. I want the truth and I could care less what your version of it is to you. The truth is the truth and I do not need a team to be part of to seek that out.

the entire topic has become childish and nonsensical

You mean like being crowded with off topic whining? Sure has.

the reason i support closing the whole 9/11 discussion on here is that is doesnt add anything positive to the situation, it just continues to make anyone who speaks the words 9/11 look crazy, insane, and/or a terrorist

So you advocate banning the forum? Why? Who are you? Do you want P4T shut down as well or is it just ATS that bothers you getting into 9/11? This is a conspiracy website and whether the OS were true or not, it was still a conspiracy. Are you looking for a site that picks and chooses which conspiracies to let people freely discuss?

george bush could come on this website, post audio, text, and pictures documenting every detail about how he was responsible for it (if he was responsible for it) and there would still be page after page of people attacking and arguing with each other blindly completely off topic

Even I do not think Bush was any mastermind behind any plot to do anything other than stage photo ops. Your point is well taken. I am sure they will rush in and close this forum now due to your daunting logic there.

edited to say, only 2 posts above this post, i see you are still trying to keep things on topic, its not going to happen, a thread on 9/11 will never achieve anything here on ats except getting people banned, upsetting people, and making anyone looking for the truth look like a fool

LOL. Thanks for cluing us in to your true intent. I am trying to get it on topic and you are trying to derail it by talking about derailment. Thanks for that admission. What "team" did you claim to be on?

also wanted to specify i never called anyone in specific retarded, i meant that as a wide description of a group of people that includes the intelligent and non intelligent

Then you must not know what the word "retarded" means. First of all, calling lots of people a name instead of one specific person, DOES NOT MAKE IT BETTER. Secondly, if you are going to mock people based on what you presume to be their IQ level - you should know better than to call INTELLIGENT and NON-INTELLIGENT people retarded. That is just...well...

Anyway. Personal attacks aside can you get any more off topic? Perhaps you would like to say something racist or tell a really lame anti-Semitic joke as well? Want a number so you can explain to my Autistic nephew what you really meant and why it was so funny?

as all of us can see by opening up any 9/11 thread, almost everyone at some point ends up looking dumb as almost everyone in the thread at some points gets caught up in the ridiculousness

You just wanted to beat them to it then?

through frustration and patience that has worn thin, i have seen incredibly intelligent people lower their intelligence to debate the rest who cause these derailments, when it comes to the 9/11 topic, ignorance is severely contagious

That would be me. I let myself get dragged into this off topic BS with you even after you admitted that while I was trying to keep it ON-topic, you were replying to derail it some more.

Two edits "just to say" and you still managed to mangle yourself up in such a logic knot that you will be busy for a while.

I will not respond to you off topic. If you have anything else that important to say, U2U me or start a new thread. It will be derailed again and again. Posting to talk about how much it will get derailed is kind of the opposite of helping.

reply to post by Lillydale


i was just wondering why your on here, i'm not looking down on you i'm just curious. if you believe the offical story you have no reason to be on here unless you just like arguing. if you don't believe the os then what are you arguing for, surely anyone on this site just wants to know the truth, either that or your just bored browsing the the net and have no reason to post anything. as with the credabilty issue you should never take anything as fact because someone tells you it is, look into it your self and make your own mind up as to what is true because its very unlikely anyone will ever know for sure. every one needs to chill out and present ideas in a clear and polite manner otherwise we're not going to get anywhere. as for spelling and grammer i really don't care if i'm not 100% right, as long as the point can be made who cares, none of you are bloody proffesors of linguistics so get over yourselves. ohhhh no you can spell better than me and oh look i put a comma in the wrong place how shall i ever live, your writing a post on a website not a literary classic. feel free to tell me how bad my spelling and grammer is, your comments will stay in my head for all of 5 seconds while i laugh at you and then the shall be gone never to return, spelling and grammer are not the issues you should be debating folks, slightly more important things going on in the world