Why America and China will clash

Originally posted by tooo many pills
Don't you think that must Chinese people that know about the US would much rather live in the US than in China. That is why a Chinese invasion of the US will never happen. The Chinese people know their government doesn't care if they get cancer and die working in terrible condtions. If hundreds of thousands of Chinese soldiers came to US land they would desert there posts as soon as they landed. Do you think they would really want to fight for their country that doesn't care at all about them?

[edit on 20-1-2010 by tooo many pills]

Forgive me "Tooo many pills" and others, I failed to include the above quote correctly on my previous reply.

Sorry.

In my opinion

What US and China compete in future will mainly focus on "SOFT power".
Soft power competing can speed up the development of global economy and high techs.

BUT war is NOT the game order of US and China. We both are adults not some children.

Originally posted by wdkirk
I think China will have a civil war before anything ignites between the US and China. Sooner or later, the people of China will get tired of the Dictatorship and want to rule themselves. It is inevitable.

Just a thought:

A full out war between China and the US would be the start of WW3. It wouldn't be like Vietnam, Korea or Iraq.

A civil war in China? No my friend, that will not happen, not here. I have been studying the Chinese for some time and I can assure you (In My Humble Opinion) that a civil war will not be seen here, ever. Best not stir an ant's nest. And if the U.S. does...forget Vietnam, Korea and Iraq, the U.S. lost, and are losing those, you do not want to try the Chinese. They are much smarter than the ones that have outdone, and are wearying the U.S.

Originally posted by Unregistered
The US can simply launch their missiles to China while sipping coffee and the war is over. China's amount of soldiers doesn't matter. The US need not send in their soldiers All it takes is one bomb.

Sure, launch your missiles, but will they reach target? Remember what the Chinese did with one of their obsolete satellites last year? And they let the world know that they could do it. They have shown their ability to render ineffective the U.S's ComSat system, they have not "shown" what else they are capable of. So the U.S. can sip coffee as they push buttons, If they come to that they may as well enjoy their "last sipper". (Pardon the Pun) And may I suggest that China's amount of soldiers does matter. They have the well equipped and massive P.L.A. in conjunction with every senior student whom undergoes military training, within 24 hours China can muster an army that makes the U.S.'s military look like a boy scout meeting, and the Chinese people are far more unified and dedicated to their country than your average "Dumb a***d Joe six-pack from sh*tville Nebraska........Start digging that bunker.

Originally posted by plumranch
reply to post by yiersan

 

American friends who would think otherwise and that your system needs some kind of renovation.

The renovation has already begun and the 2010 election will probably bring about very decisive change. US nationalism is still very much alive and well on the left, right and libertarian.

The bottom line for any nation is emigration. People wanting to get into a country to work, escape an oppressive government, find opportunity or for the highly educated and talented to reach their potential.

Who do you know that is educated and talented wants to emigrate to England, France, Germany, South Africa, Isreal, Brasil, India and lastly China?

On the other hand the US has an abundance of people emigrating for all reasons and especially because they want to enjoy the technical challenges still available here in the US. Microsoft, Google, Apple and a host of others are still hiring! IE: If you are talented come here!

The challenge for developed nations now and in the future is how to attract new laborers, middle class and especially the educated and talented. That is very much an ongoing problem in the West that is not shared by the US.

You made a nice point about "emigration". Yet, never forget that people leave a country not only because they felt oppressed, finding for a better opportunity, new lifestyle, back to the roots and so on and so on, two main reasons those political and economic.

As for the emigration to the other countries you mentioned. Well, it happens that I was born and raised in the Netherlands, and it happens that with my master degree I met quite a lot of well educated people from all over the world during my student period (and afterwards). Let's say England, Germany and France I have/had friends from America or Asia (Japan/Korea/HK/TW/Singapore etc) with a good education who are now working and living there. I have at least one very close Dutch friend who kinda moved to Shanghai to work and got married with a local Chinese woman. During my 4 years in China I have met a hugeload of expats, mostly ordinary business men who simply do not want care too much and wanna provide their children a better future, so many of them brought their whole family to here. I went to places like in Yunnan and Hainan provinces, where retired European/Americans decided to live in China. And the 2nd-4th generation of Chinese, who are born and raised with a good education from all over the world are trying to come back to China. Even in my company or my relatives/friends are continuous receiving application letters from these kinds of younger generation Chinese from abroad.....
Plenty of if you do look around. YET, technically speaking, you are not allowed to call those "emigrants" doing any "emigration". Because China is officially not letting anyone to immigrate to China.

On the other hand, you do still see a lot of "emigration" from China to places like HK, Europe/America, from especially the middle-class to rich ones. AND then you still have a lot of human traffic "fleeing" out of poverty by lower educated from lesser developed China provinces, trying their luck in the Western world, that's why you will still see too many illegals in the Statest etc.

Look, by no means I want to discuss why someone should come to China or leave USA, reality is just that the balances are shifting. Yes, USA is still very attractive too many, but it does not mean the rest of the world is not appealing for others with other political, economic and/or personal motivations.... Ps. I could't let it not said, to work for Microsoft, Apple, Google and the like you do not need to be in the States ;-)

Ps. I also THOUGHT the renovations would start with Obama winning the election. But honestly speaking I do feel slightly disappointed in how slow and seemingly even destructive policies being passed through again and again. As for his foreign affairs, it is plainout a bad performance in it, you can see and feel he has not much experience and not too much confidence, at least he is not as charming a sbefore, his credibility is declining so much over here in China that jokes were made about him during his visit. Also ironically, while his government is kinda begging China to keep on buying those junkbonds, he dares to let their defense secretary claim and put China among the refreshed list of evil of axis, or at least the nations to be noted as "enemy". How would you feel to replaced in an "enemy list", which the replacement you replaced were invaded, attacked and destroyed by those who created this "enemy list". Does this list means you are the next target???

Originally posted by Redhercules

In my opinion

What US and China compete in future will mainly focus on "SOFT power".
Soft power competing can speed up the development of global economy and high techs.

BUT war is NOT the game order of US and China. We both are adults not some children.

I TOTALLY agree, look at Europe, basically because in Europe there were SOOOOO many different countries, that they grew stronger and developed themselves rapidly while competing with each other. While Chinese emporers in the Qing dynasty were just too relatively too stable causing China to lack behind in development and growth.....

reply to post by yiersan


Thanks again, your comments are always interesting. I suspected that China had some emigration esp. technical people and their families. For investors, management and technical people China would be an attractive place.

Your comments about European competition vs. competition in China also interesting. China's competition is the rest of the world.

I've been very critical of Obama on ATS, beginning 16 months ago. Yesterday's thread: Obama gets and F on Foreign Relations!

I thought Obama handled the China visit very poorly also.

I also noted that the Chinese are not happy with Obama's health care bill:

China Questions Cost of US Healthcare Reform

reply to post by Redhercules

What US and China compete in future will mainly focus on "SOFT power". Soft power competing can speed up the development of global economy and high techs.

Do you mean green or alternative energy sources?

I've heard that China is improving their coal electricity plants, less sulfur emissions.

The reason we had a good 3rd & 4th quarter was because of the Chinese. Some of our Government is at war with China but some of the Government supports China.
posted on 29-10-2009 @ 11:22 AM single this post "quote"REPLY TO:
Whatever the Chinese want. READ!!

The Secretary of Commerce Gary Locke has been granted the power of the Presidency in dealing with the Chinese in Technology Transfer. As a long time friend of the Chinese, he is now the POTUS when it comes to giving them what they want.
(No one read the first post - this is important!)

[[Page 50913]]
Presidential Determination No. 2009-31 of September 29, 2009

Presidential Determination On the Delegation of Certifications Under Section 1512 of Public Law 105-261 Memorandum for the Secretary of Commerce
By virtue of the authority vested in me as President by the Constitution and the laws of the United States of America, including section 301 of Title 3, United States Code, I hereby delegate to you the functions of the President under section 1512 of the National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 1999 (NDAA). In the performance of your responsibility under this memorandum, you shall consult, as appropriate, the heads of other executive departments and agencies. You are authorized and directed to publish this determination in the Federal Register.
---
SEC. 1512. CERTIFICATION OF EXPORTS OF MISSILE EQUIPMENT OR TECHNOLOGY TO CHINA.

The President shall certify to the Congress at least 15 days in advance of any export to the People's Republic of China of missile equipment or technology (as defined in section 74 of the Arms Export Control Act (22 U.S.C. 2797c)) that--

(1) such export is not detrimental to the United States space launch industry; and

(2) the missile equipment or technology, including any indirect technical benefit that could be derived from such export, will not measurably improve the missile or space launch capabilities of the People's Republic of China.
---
The Secretary of Commerce Gary Locke has been given FULL authority for China technology transfer:

Man oh man oh man - how much would that be worth!! A whole country happy to see you and shake your hand. And give you lots and lots of money!!

Originally posted by plumranch
reply to post by Redhercules

 

What US and China compete in future will mainly focus on "SOFT power". Soft power competing can speed up the development of global economy and high techs.

Do you mean green or alternative energy sources?

I've heard that China is improving their coal electricity plants, less sulfur emissions.

NO

you know, I just can speak simple english

You misunderstand my meaning. "SOFT Power" is a political word. It mainly refer to impact of politics, economy and culture. The contrary of Soft power, I think it is Rigid power, which means army and war.

Now China has been the second biggest economy country in the world, while US still be NO.1. In future I think US and China will have some competition in many Soft power fields. but these competition will give energy to global economy, will be good for our world. In future US and China is just like two enterprise such as GE and FORD. They will compete with their high techs, culture and good working. The most important thing for US and China in next stage is NOT hesitate or disbelieve, BUT to open widly to each other.

US and China both can benefit from Globalization. We totally agree with "Globalization", not "Americanization". China also have many famous enterprises such as Lenovo, Hair and Cherry. Now many American/European engineers and workers work for Chinese enterprises. In other side so many Chinese engineers work in IBM, GE and Microsoft. They also can help the develpment of US

US and China have different culture and philosophy. I disire to learn from American peoples

reply to post by Redhercules


To Plum: In other words same as you believe, a cold war

reply to post by yiersan



I don't think so

Under the background of globalization, Cold War will never come back.

As we know, US and China both are important vindicator of globalization.

I think maybe this is reason why China will refuse method "G-2", because many Chinese people think G-2 might hurt the base of globalization. it makes things change bad.

Originally posted by plumranch

Why America and China will clash

www.ft.com

Google’s clash with China is about much more than the fate of a single, powerful firm. The company’s decision to pull out of China, unless the government there changes its policies on censorship, is a harbinger of increasingly stormy relations between the US and China.

The reason that the Google case is so significant is because it suggests that the assumptions on which US policy to China have been based since the Tiananmen massacre of 1989 could be plain wrong. The US has accepted – even welc

(visit the link for the full news article)



Related AboveTopSecret.com Discussion Threads:
China for World super power in next 40 years

You assume that because America acquired for itself the role of the leader of the free world advocating tolerance of free speech and tolerance and equal opportunity for people from every different race, that somehow humanity chose them to be their leaders and now obviously they will oppose China somehow to acquire a leadership position. Humanity in a whole never chose America more than they would have chosen lets say for example, Hitler. Humanity never chooses anything, just stays at the sidelines and watches who will win. That's all we can do anyways. If the PTB chose China to be The world leader unfortunately I don't see that we have any other option but to bend over and say "thank you sir". This is reality.

However, if the PTB chose China as The future world leader in order to "expand" the Chinese paradigm globally which IMO means, less money, less freedoms, more and more power to fewer and fewer hands, totalitarianism etc etc. then this is your chance to not accept it and to force Your paradigm, your ideas and your beliefs on them instead. Only thing keeping this from beginning to happen is the Great China firewall on the internet. It is just like the Berlin wall. IT MUST BE TEARED DOWN as soon as possible!

Doesn't anyone wonder why all those futurists, or global trend analyzers, we get to hear for everything and anything, NEVER seem to refer to this Great Chinese firewall, EVER?
They see no problem with it? Or is it that it just doesn't bother them? What if they are paid mouthpieces and that this thing is actually GOOD for a coming New World Order? If yes, then why should we trust their whatever pictures they paint the future to be?

[edit on 30-1-2010 by spacebot]

WHAT IF, China is becoming fast, more quickly than anyone else, the paradigm that a coming NWO would want for the civilized leading countries of this planet to be? WHAT IF all that money that flows to them all those years is about achieving this goal, for others to not help but to follow, like pieces of a falling domino?

[edit on 30-1-2010 by spacebot]

reply to post by spacebot

WHAT IF, China is becoming fast, more quickly than anyone else, the paradigm that a coming NWO would want for the civilized leading countries of this planet to be? WHAT IF all that money that flows to them all those years is about achieving this goal, for others to not help but to follow, like pieces of a falling domino?

At this point China is not even considering extending its realm of influence beyond its immediate borders with few exceptions. The challenges the central committee faces is maintaining some semblance of economic stability and ongoing growth, building it infrastructure and extending it to its vast interior and outlying populations, and generally keeping it all together.

At this point they seem to be much more defensive than offensive in action but will continue their challenging rhetoric.

The theme of the OP is that the US and West has not been successful in changing or challenging Chinese suppression and oppression and the future isn't looking good in that respect.

It's pretty much up the the US administration and Obama has been looking and acting powerless. Google is pretty powerless.

Originally posted by plumranch
Look for Obama to make new policy statements regarding China and threatening trade sanctions while the Chinese thumb their noses!

China warns Obama not to meet Dalai Lama

Did china just talk down to the us?
Oh man, that can't be good. Not good at all.

reply to post by Jazzyguy


The Dalai Lama meeting is a good issue for China to rail about. All recent US presidents, even the French Pres have met the DL. China always complains as they are now.

"If the U.S. leader chooses this time to meet the Dalai Lama, that would damage trust and cooperation between our two countries, and how would that help the United States surmount the current economic crisis?" said Zhu. China routinely opposes meetings between the Dalai Lama and foreign leaders, especially after violent unrest spread across Tibetan areas in March 2008. Beijing blamed his "clique" for the turmoil, a charge he repeatedly rejected.

and

"Let's watch what they do, not what they say, because sometimes tough words in China are a substitute for tough action," said Susan Shirk, a professor specializing in Chinese foreign policy at the University of California, San Diego.

The big thorn in the side of China is the proposed defensive arms sale to Taiwan. This really has them fuming!

The side issue of Iran suddenly threatening the ME Feb 11th and China being one of Iran's chief apologists makes this more interesting indeed!

reply to post by plumranch


plum, the admin is really goading the chinese. Maybe it has somethin to do with Iran, but I just don't understand the method. I don't think the admin is trying to corner china, but is trying to make a statement.

White House spokesman says Obama will meet with Dalai Lama

It's like the admin is daring china for a fight, why the us admin is doing all of this? Is this a retaliation because the chicom is disrespectful toward obama during copenhagen or strictly about iran?

reply to post by Jazzyguy

It's like the admin is daring china for a fight, why the us admin is doing all of this? Is this a retaliation because the chicom is disrespectful toward obama during copenhagen or strictly about iran?

I think the Chinese government is in a tough position right now. They are trying to appease many factions in country, stretching themselves thin. This from last night: Chinese Premier Warns of Challenges to Economy

What the US wants from the Chinese? Don't undervalue their currency, float it to be economically fair to the rest of the world, modernize their archaic human rights policies, stay out of the affairs of NK, Tibet, Tiawan, join the US in the war on terror, and apply pressure on Iran to stop developing the Bomb to name a few. IMHO there is zero progress in any of these areas.

The US honoring its commitments to Tiawan's defense is maintaining the stattus quo and not a threat.

I think it's interesting reading about theChina Trade Bill now with the power of hindsight. I especially like where they say:

"Trade with China will not only extend our nation's unprecedented economic growth, it offers us a chance to help shape the future of the world's most prosperous nation and to reaffirm our own global leadership for peace and prosperity."

and also:

With China enfolded in the WTO, "The world will be a safer place -- or so we hope, and so history argues," said Sen. Daniel Patrick Moynihan, D-New York.

It reminds me of Neville Chamberlains appeasement of Germany and his remarks of "peace for our time".

[edit on 3/2/10 by Cthulwho]

Chinese Justice System

BEIJING, Feb. 10 (Xinhua) -- Sun Shanwu, former vice chairman of the Chinese People's Political Consultative Conference (CPPCC) Henan Provincial Committee, was sentenced to death with a two-year reprieve for graft in eastern China's Shandong Province Tuesday.

And why is this fellow going to die?

According to the Weifang Intermediate People Court, Sun, 63, was found to have taken bribes worth of more than 9.1 million yuan (about 1.33 million U.S. dollars) from 2002 to 2006, when he served as the member of the Standing Committee of the Communist Party of China (CPC) Henan Provincial Committee, and secretary of the CPC Luoyang municipal committee.

Mr. Shanwu did not kill anyone, rape anyone, or steal anyone's horses, he took bribes! Which in China is a capitol offense!

That is Chinese Justice!