Why America and China will clash

Why America and China will clash

www.ft.com

Google’s clash with China is about much more than the fate of a single, powerful firm. The company’s decision to pull out of China, unless the government there changes its policies on censorship, is a harbinger of increasingly stormy relations between the US and China.

The reason that the Google case is so significant is because it suggests that the assumptions on which US policy to China have been based since the Tiananmen massacre of 1989 could be plain wrong. The US has accepted – even welc

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American businessmen and politicians especially Clinton and Bush have always assumed that if we maintain an open business and political relationship with China that eventually China will relax its hard line human rights and censorship policies.

Google's sudden change of heart, threatened pullout of the China market because of China's hard line on censorship demonstrates that possibly our China policy has failed. There has been no changes in China. The government remains as inflexible as ever. What really galls America is China's currency policy that devalues their currency and prices American labor and goods out of the market. At a time when American unemployment goes only up this may bring China policy to a head.

Obama hinted at this in his recent speeches in China. Obama is basically a softie, a patsy when confronted but as conditions worsen and China has more human rights abuses, Obama may be forced to push China harder.

We hear more and more talk about trade protectionism. Always a risky policy as it could provoke a trade war that could push the world back further into recession.

I've written often recently about China's overstimulated economic state with unresponsive world markets. China is pushing itself toward economic collapse and has few alternatives but to stay on the path it has taken. I don't see China changing at all in spite of US protests and economic retrobutions.

Look for Obama to make new policy statements regarding China and threatening trade sanctions while the Chinese thumb their noses!

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[edit on 19/1/10 by plumranch]

The last thing people ever think of with china or russia is, without our dollars and our jobs, those countries would be toast.

We gave russia technology and money during WWII.

In the 80's the US started giving our jobs away. China has much of what used to be our bread and butter...now we're turning into a welfare state that is unsustainable.

Shakespeare was not kidding, when he said that all the world is a stage.

Anyways.....I'm actually expecting russia to make a move on us...I suppose china could possibly get in on the act...and I mean act.....

reply to post by toasted


Economies are always great during war times, because weapons need to be manufactured and purchased.

China could easily replace whatever industries it loses with military industries, and have no over-all economic loss.


If this happens, I honestly would not mind China trying to take out our federal government, and war is war. Only two things I can say I wouldn't like about it:

(A) Leave us civilians out of it; most of us don't like our government either, anyway. You Chinese won't gain anything by killing American civilians.

(B) If you do take out Washington, don't try to occupy us afterward; we are the most armed nation on the planet. Think Iraq but 10000x worse, with redneck Good ol' Boys and Texans blowing and shooting up everything Red in their sights all over the South, and so many gangs across urban areas suddenly having new and common foreign enemies. Much less the chances of a puppet government here than in Iraq.

[edit on 18-1-2010 by bsbray11]

reply to post by plumranch





Great find!. When you think about it, you'd think that a clash will inevitably happen. But it won't. These are two big dogs here, it's all about cake. At this point in time, China and USA are symbiotically linked. One can't survive without the other, as far as economy goes. Our businesses make alot of money producing their goods in China. I wonder what a TV would cost if the cat at the other end was making $10 an hour. With that being said...

Look for Obama to make new policy statements regarding China and threatening trade sanctions while the Chinese thumb their noses!

That's basically what's going to happen. China has always been commie with regard to it's internet policies...if anything Google is pissed because it was hacked by China and i think that the Chinese government was behind it...like they really are gonna incriminate themselves.

If Google fully pulls out of China (there servers and Google "search") another will take it place. Bing or Yahoo will club themselves silly to slide up in there.

[edit on 18-1-2010 by cenpuppie]

what the article really neglects to report is what the importance and performance of Google is in the Chinese market. while in the western world is googling as if it is the only search machine portal available (myself included), in China Google's maket share is insignificant, Yahoo and especially the Chinese search portals like Baidu are the market leaders, way ahead of Google. Google just need a face-saving way to get out of a market where they are losing money.

Yahoo has stated publicly that it is aligned with Google which earned an angry rebuke from it's Chinese partner; the Alibaba Group. More drama to add to the cyber-wars...

BEIJING (AFP) – China's e-commerce giant Alibaba on Sunday condemned as "reckless" its partner Yahoo!'s support of Google, which has threatened to pull out of the Asian nation over censorship and cyberattacks.

"Alibaba Group has communicated to Yahoo! that Yahoo's statement that it is 'aligned' with the position Google took last week was reckless given the lack of facts in evidence," the firm's spokesman John Spelich told AFP in an email.

Yahoo Slammed By China Partner For Google Support

"Yahoo! is committed to protecting human rights and"We stand aligned with Google that these kinds of attacks are deeply disturbing and strongly believe that the violation of user privacy is something that we as Internet pioneers must all oppose," she added.

[edit on 19-1-2010 by LadySkadi]

reply to post by LadySkadi

Yahoo has stated publicly that it is aligned with Google which earned an angry rebuke from it's Chinese partner; the Alibaba Group.

Thank you Lady for that! Hadn't heard about Alibaba:

Alibaba Group

Founded in 1999, Alibaba.com makes it easy for millions of buyers and suppliers around the world to do business online through three marketplaces: a global trade marketplace (www.alibaba.com) for importers and exporters, a Chinese marketplace (www.alibaba.com.cn) for domestic trade in China, and, through an associated company, a Japanese marketplace (www.alibaba.co.jp) facilitating trade to and from Japan. Together, its marketplaces form a community of more than 45 million registered users from more than 240 countries and regions. Alibaba.com also offers business management software solutions targeting small businesses across China under the "Alisoft" brand and incubates e-commerce talent for small businesses in China through Ali-Institute. Founded in Hangzhou, China, Alibaba.com has offices in more than 50 cities across Greater China, Japan, Korea, Europe and the United States.

So Alibaba is TO'd at partner Yohoo who is aligned with Google and agrees with Google's rejection of China censorship of its citizens.

Will Alibaba win out as China's censored internet search engine?

My guess: Alibaba doesn't have much of a search engine and has been relying on Yahoo and Google. China will have to make some concessions.

reply to post by plumranch


Google Delays Phone Launch In China

Also Tuesday, a Foreign Ministry spokesman said the search giant must obey China's laws and traditions, suggesting the government was giving no ground in talks over Internet censorship and Google's threat to pull out of the country.

Google and China are in deadlock. Who will blink?

reply to post by plumranch


It is a good find, but a possible reason China and the U.S. corporate government wont fight each other is because the bailout was supposed to help pay off some debt with China.

And since the bailout was apart of the private sector there seems to be like more funding would be in order.

Maybe confrontation may be avoided. Plus there is like a billion chinese in the chinese army so forget that man.

Anyone notice how everyday we are inching closer to World War III?

My sister told me all this would happen, back in the 1970's, regarding which countries would clash and who would be in the battle of all battles. She didn't fully know how it would come to it, she just studied Prophecy like a theologian, and she was right on the money. She's been gone for several years now, I wish she was here to see how right she was.

Most of you younger people probably cannot understand what a nutcase you would have been considered in the 1970's if someone told you that one day the USA would be at war with the Middle East (much less China); the middle east was considered the most backward place on earth. You would have said "what, are they going to sand me to death"?

reply to post by plumranch

China has more human rights abuses, Obama may be forced to push China harder.

But why should we have to deal with China's human right abuses? Isn't this the reason we have the UN and a ton of other international agencies?

Where are their voices and criticism of China? They have no problem taking on Israel.

American businessmen and politicians especially Clinton and Bush have always assumed that if we maintain an open business and political relationship with China that eventually China will relax its hard line human rights and censorship policies.

I don't totally agree with this. I think the bottom line was money and more money with a side order of cheap labor.

reply to post by jam321


The source seems to think the big issue is human rights, censorship, hard line control of the population and this is certainly Google's issue with China and it's why this comes up again and again.

But the bigger issue is balance of trade and China gobbling up all the jobs and world production, the export of US production to China. This isn't just a US problem it's a world problem.

The root of the issue is the one party stranglehold on policy in China. The Party decides allocation of loans and resources, decides environmental issues, labor issues, human rights issues, currency issues and especially currency valuation. Ideally every currency should be allowed to float or come to equilibrium on the world market. At the very least the Party should fairly post the price of the currency, not artificially undervalue the yuan so that Chinese goods are under priced on the world market. The effect is that China is stealing the jobs and production away from other countries at a time of recession when jobs and industry become critical.

Can you imagine what an outspoken President like Reagan or John Kennedy would have done? They would have gotten on a world podium, blasted the Chinese, and given them some clear alternatives. It looks as though the US, the American coalition and the EU will need to come together and apply economic pressures, sanctions!

It will take more than Google.

Reply to post by toasted

All I'll say is this, it's PAINFULLY obvious that the people that have tried making a friend of China never paid much attention Sun Tzu's Art of War and the leaders of China have. They are making nice til they are sure they can quickly and cleanly beat us. Which is EXACTLY what Sun Tzu advises.


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This just in:

Chinese media hit at white houses Google

the Communist party mouthpiece, ran an editorial with the headline: “The world does not welcome the White House’s Google”.

“Whenever the US government demands it, Google can easily become a convenient tool for promoting the US government’s political will and values abroad. And actually the US government is willing to do so,” the piece said.

And later:

In an accompanying news story, the paper quoted Wu Xinbo, a political scientist at Fudan University, as saying “the Google incident is not just a commercial incident, it is a political incident”.
China Youth Daily said in its Tuesday edition that some US politicians were trying to promote human rights issues under the guise of a commercial dispute.
“In their hearts, when Google is in trouble that means that western culture is in trouble . . . Using Google to propagate American-style freedom of speech . . . is the real reason that Google chose not to address its problems in the market but through politics,” the paper said.

China wants it clear that Google and the US are a pain and that that the Party will allow their citizens to have human rights when the Party is ready! I like the "American style free speech" as though there are many other styles of free speech also! LOL Like the Chinese style where you go to jail when you use free speech!Hehe

USA take on China in a frontal assault ??? never in your dreams, the Yanks can't beat a bunch of rag tag cave dwellers armed with soviet era weaponry.

For the record the US lost the Korean War ( hence the reason there is a north and south ) then lost the Vietnam war fair and square against inferior defenders and then proceeded to lose Iraq war in 1991 by having to go back into the region in 2003 and has since then duly screwed up any vantage by scandal after scandal. They can't seem to beat the Taliban and now are using Drones to blow up houses in Pakistan an d claim to take out leaders of its organization.

It isn't going to beat China in anything, clearly its the contractors supplying the US military picking the fights for it so it can profit.

Thing is it is not going to happen on obamas watch, he bows to their almighty power,

I think it seems inevitable that the US and China would go to war, but after WWII everybody also thought Soviet Russia and the US would go to war. We didn't. It was just a Cold War.

A US/China cold war might happen or might already be happening.

However, communist China is completely different than old communist Russia. Russia actually cared about their people and human rights, China does not. Also, the world didn't depend on Russia for their cheap products.

Don't you think that must Chinese people that know about the US would much rather live in the US than in China. That is why a Chinese invasion of the US will never happen. The Chinese people know their government doesn't care if they get cancer and die working in terrible condtions. If hundreds of thousands of Chinese soldiers came to US land they would desert there posts as soon as they landed. Do you think they would really want to fight for their country that doesn't care at all about them?

[edit on 20-1-2010 by tooo many pills]

reply to post by tooo many pills

If hundreds of thousands of Chinese soldiers came to US land they would desert there posts as soon as they landed. Do you think they would really want to fight for their country that doesn't care at all about them?

LOL! Now there's a thought. Another reason to avoid war with China! We would loose one way or the other!

The US can simply launch their missiles to China while sipping coffee and the war is over. China's amount of soldiers doesn't matter. The US need not send in their soldiers All it takes is one bomb.