Why America and China will clash

I bring fourth a solution !!

China has more than 1 Billion people. Take .02% of those people and brainstorm for 24 hours on how to make a ........(Chinese Search Engine). Yeah that's right.

Let the Chinese invent and use their own search engine that they can censor 99.9 things on it. That's right, don't be looking for "commie bastards" on China's brand new newly invented Chinese search engine....

China should call it. " China Find "

For banks loans I personally believe it is harder to get in China than in Europe or USA, over here you have to give more guarantee etc etc etc, so I sincerely believe a similar credit crunch as what happened in the USA will not happen that easily over here. By the way, it still cost much more to borrow in Mainland China than in a place like Hong Kong.....

Where does all those cash come from if borrowing money is not as easy as pretended (although borrowed money does affect the money supply)? Well, by nature because of the uncertainty of the future Chinese people LOVE to do saving. Before it became more stable Chinese people would rather keep the money or in precious metal stocked at home. These are because before 79 China is an extremely instable place to live in. I think I heard that China has one of the highest savings rate because of the people's perception. By lowering the interests rate the government is trying to get the common people to SPEND or "INVEST" their savings. Just one extra percentage point of withdrawing of the savings transferred to spending or investment will be a huge push in the consumer market and the real estate/stock market.

What Beijing is doing currently is following the example of HK of building collective "reasonable payable" apartments, which with a lottery system like in HK, Beijing residents could apply for one. It is aimed in increasing the supply of houses and keeping the market average housing pricing at "reasonable" levels. And I just heard that this program is going on faster than planned (just hope that it didn't go so fast at the cost of the quality). Other cities will follow suit if it does work. Again, my opinion of if this is going to burst or not, it will not matter too much imho, it might be even a good thing for those being affected, after all most of these middle-class are relatively young enough and have enough time to overcome a crisis like what happened in HK in 97 or 03.

As for the environmental issues, I do believe that we missed a chance decades ago to do it slightly different than what happened in during the industrial revolution in the Western world. There were actually already enough renewable energy and green concepts available. Of course some might debate that with over a billion to feed Deng choosed for the easy and cheapest way. What do give me more comfort is that whereever you see regardless of how much effect, the government and the public communities use these "green" themes to promote for reducing pollution etc etc. I started to get involved in solar energy for example, and one of the supplier I am dealing was just recently being visitted by Wen Jiabao, it does show a little bit that the central government does pay attention to this.

One important thing we should not forget and is prolly the biggest strength of the Chinese economy currently is that the majority of the people has a sense of unlimited optimism for the future. While in China most of the people believe that the future is bright and unlimited, the sky is not even the limit anymore, anything is possible (ps the slogan of a Chinese shoes brand!). in the Western world on the other hand, people are pessismistic and don't really believe in a good future anymore.

reply to post by yiersan

One important thing we should not forget and is prolly the biggest strength of the Chinese economy currently is that the majority of the people has a sense of unlimited optimism for the future.

Thanks yiersan!

Chinese nationalism (which has replaced belief in Communism) is rather incredible, your hope for the future also which kind of sounds like America in 2003. Ie. the bubble will continue forever! Then you have your strong central government which will be in there as a strong political force to maintain the course!

Even the Chinese government has its weaknesses and those may become apparent if the inevitable happens, the economic downturn.

No economy has maintained rampant growth forever. The rest of Asia has already faced it and paid the price. Perhaps China will go on a little longer, maybe even make it through 2010. Cracks are apparent now as with the banks tightening. China is built on 2 things, money and nationalism. There are going to be a lot of unhappy Chinese if the inevitable collapse occurs.

When it happens China will see a Central Government that tries desperately to maintain power, bringing in the means it has including the military, banking, business, police power and of course trying to drawing its citizens together by Nationalism and belief in all things Chinese. This will either work or not. If it doesn't we will see all the various factions working in different directions and a situation not seen since before Mao.

Again, I don't see neighboring nations, Russia or the US interfering in your future but I do see what the OP suggested. China will blame the US and all its neighbors esp. Japan for its economic problems. It will excite its citizens with anti Japan, US, Russia, Tibetan, SK and Taiwan propaganda for its own benefit. In other words it will keep on being Chinese! LOL

China may be the new power house.
But from what i've seen in some articles on the net, if they don't get a handle on industrial pollution.
Their country will become a waste land before long.
I hope thats not the case as china is a truly beautiful place.
With more culture than most other nations.
Now if they would just give my job back please. lol!

Originally posted by wiredamerican
I bring fourth a solution !!

China has more than 1 Billion people. Take .02% of those people and brainstorm for 24 hours on how to make a ........(Chinese Search Engine). Yeah that's right.

Let the Chinese invent and use their own search engine that they can censor 99.9 things on it. That's right, don't be looking for "commie bastards" on China's brand new newly invented Chinese search engine....

China should call it. " China Find "

check www.baidu.com

Originally posted by Just one opinion
China may be the new power house.
But from what i've seen in some articles on the net, if they don't get a handle on industrial pollution.
Their country will become a waste land before long.
I hope thats not the case as china is a truly beautiful place.
With more culture than most other nations.
Now if they would just give my job back please. lol!

the Earth is a wasteland..... i will refer you back to my opinion about China's environmental issues.

as for your job, pity that your business owners and corporates are so greedy....

reply to post by plumranch


The Chinese government is full of weaknesses and probably full of incapable guys. See 89, or how they handled the SARS in 03, or how they are forced to keep on buying junkbonds in USA in 08/09, many and too many to name it all up. Yet, we have to give them credit, this is relatively speaking a young system, consider everything up until about 100-150 years before 79 as black pages in the Chinese history, then you might understand that the current system is actually still very very young. So to become the China of today in the past 3 decades is pretty amazing to say..... nothing is everlasting, but i do not see a collapse in the foreseeable nearby future, despite the many social issues we face.

Chinese Nationalism is driven mainly by the Han-Chinese and the 5000 years Chinese History, as you know pretty much how many Hans there are, and most of the minorities feel contend in their current situation as they have mostly integrated in the modern China, I do not see such a big split. There are plenty of ways to get all these Hans united at once, see the Lahsa riot issue and the aftermath between Chinese people (including worldwide older & younger generations) against all those "barbarians former colonists who play the game with double-standards and hypocrisy".

Ps. There are plenty of references that tells us that the NED is behind many of the social unrests in China. But that's part of the game and otherwise how could we call it a cold war ;-)

[edit on 25-1-2010 by yiersan]

Originally posted by wiredamerican
I bring fourth a solution !!

China has more than 1 Billion people. Take .02% of those people and brainstorm for 24 hours on how to make a ........(Chinese Search Engine). Yeah that's right.

Let the Chinese invent and use their own search engine that they can censor 99.9 things on it. That's right, don't be looking for "commie bastards" on China's brand new newly invented Chinese search engine....

China should call it. " China Find "

Brilliant solution!!

China does have a Chinese search engine, called baidu.com, which has 70% percent market share in China. But Google still has 25% of the market, so now the no 1 task is to kick google out.

China would stomp all over america, with the help of Russia aswell.

reply to post by yiersan

The Chinese government is full of weaknesses and probably full of incapable guys. See 89, or how they handled the SARS in 03, or how they are forced to keep on buying junkbonds in USA in 08/09, many and too many to name it all up. Yet, we have to give them credit, this is relatively speaking a young system, consider everything up until about 100-150 years before 79 as black pages in the Chinese history, then you might understand that the current system is actually still very very young. So to become the China of today in the past 3 decades is pretty amazing to say..... nothing is everlasting, but i do not see a collapse in the foreseeable nearby future, despite the many social issues we face.

Granted you have a young, developing system but at some point like a teenager, you must become an adult eventually and face the issues of 1st world nations. Normally in the process a nation becomes more responsible and handles its pollution and environmental concerns. A nation progresses with human rights, and becomes a more open society. This hasn't happened in China, it hasn't been a priority even though China is no longer a poor nation or a 3rd world nation.

Something needs to change, China needs to face its responsibilities and act like the rising world power that it is. With power and status comes responsibility and that responsibility will come from competition with other Asian states. Obviously India is a rising economic force and will have the same goods as China. So the market place can apply the much needed forces of change.

Originally posted by plumranch
Granted you have a young, developing system but at some point like a teenager, you must become an adult eventually and face the issues of 1st world nations. Normally in the process a nation becomes more responsible and handles its pollution and environmental concerns. A nation progresses with human rights, and becomes a more open society. This hasn't happened in China, it hasn't been a priority even though China is no longer a poor nation or a 3rd world nation.

Something needs to change, China needs to face its responsibilities and act like the rising world power that it is. With power and status comes responsibility and that responsibility will come from competition with other Asian states. Obviously India is a rising economic force and will have the same goods as China. So the market place can apply the much needed forces of change.

This is where many of us are stucked at in the debates. At what stage China is, still 3rd, 1st, emerging??? Despite that the Chinese government is rich and there are millions of millionaires (in RMB) and a hugeload of billionaires living around us in China, what too many neglect to see is that over 90% of the population is still living in salary levels totally non-comparable to Western 1st world standards, for similar jobs they are doing. Question marks as if China is still in the infant phase, teenagers or not?

Responsibility towards the world community is one thing, to feed the 1.5 billion peeps and social stability is prolly still the priority. Of course we need to find the best balance of what would be the most sustainable economic growth versus short-term costs in achieving and setting up these kinds of economic systems. Unfortunately people tend to be short-term looking, this is why I said we did miss a chance to develop this country right from beginning at a higher cost but more sustainable way. On the other hand, with some results on hand by now, and probably capable of withstanding some troubles on the road, it is time to upgrade the more developed areas.

By the way, personally I was born and raised in a country with a so-called democratic multi-parties system, but I really favor the one-party system of China of post Deng Xiaping era. I sincerely believe a fully elected multi-party system will eventually only cause more harm than good. Personally I believe the world's people IQ, EQ and Interests levels can be described with a pyramid. I do not believe that everyone are at the same level and most of us are bluntly said dumb and too selfish. In a multi-party system in my opinion eventually these lower levels people will only vote for those appealing the most to them, causing once great nations being governed by similar low level people and some of them so worse to even fallen to become a banana republic of only selfish politicians who are just good at marketing and getting themselves re-elected. Especially these continuous short-term minded 4-10 years policies are killing these "democratic" nations.

However, one thing China lacks extremely much is a transparant system which accountability and due diligence mechanism should be in place. That's why trustlevel either from internally or externally for the governments is much lower. No matter if a new policy is for the better of China or not, people's first impression is always "wait and see", especially to see if that policy is really intended for the right cause or only to enrich individual offcials. You do see that some incapable and too greedy politician and business men are literally being hanged though, this is all good and well. But something similar like in HK with the ICAC should be set up, transparancy and accountability are extremely important. They are trying, Hu Jintao even checked how the ICAC in HK works, but this process should be fastened up to make the rotten apples less rotten asap.

reply to post by yiersan


Thanks! Interesting perspective that otherwise we don't get on ATS.

Most westerners wouldn't want to live under your Chinese Communist System mostly because we like our freedoms. Sounds like you and other middle class Chinese and people involved in government have your needs met but the vast majority of the lower working and agricultural people are much worse off.

The Communist system seems to be working for you but it didn't work out so well for the USSR. The basic weakness is that resources are allocated by a committee not by economic needs and demands. When times are good it works and when they aren't is when it starts to break down and when it gets real bad you have collapse and revolution.

You have an ongoing experiment unfolding, history being written, a new government being tested for its limits. Here we fully believe that our system has stood the test of time and is based on proven principles that will serve us well through the next century. That is in spite of the ultra left big spending Obama Administration, the Bush era or anything else history may bring our way!

Originally posted by plumranch
reply to post by yiersan

 

Thanks! Interesting perspective that otherwise we don't get on ATS.

Most westerners wouldn't want to live under your Chinese Communist System mostly because we like our freedoms. Sounds like you and other middle class Chinese and people involved in government have your needs met but the vast majority of the lower working and agricultural people are much worse off.

The Communist system seems to be working for you but it didn't work out so well for the USSR. The basic weakness is that resources are allocated by a committee not by economic needs and demands. When times are good it works and when they aren't is when it starts to break down and when it gets real bad you have collapse and revolution.

You have an ongoing experiment unfolding, history being written, a new government being tested for its limits. Here we fully believe that our system has stood the test of time and is based on proven principles that will serve us well through the next century. That is in spite of the ultra left big spending Obama Administration, the Bush era or anything else history may bring our way!

To what extend we can call the current Chinese system "communistic"? And what is defined as "freedom"?

This new system, new test which I think it is hard to label it with traditional Western terminologies, maybe only describe it at its best. The current Chinese system is a socialistic open market system with Chinese characteristics which the communistic tint is gradually being replaced by nationalism, USSR was a failure, pre-Deng reforms' China was a failure. In modern China anyone with the willpower and the sense will be able to get up the ladder rapidly, plenty of opportunities all around everyone. Farmers, Workers and so on, current middle-class and millionaires are relatively younger people between 30-50 only, who are mostly self-made men and women.

I do not agree that there is not enough freedom in China. No religious freedom is BS, you look around yourself and you will see enough temples and even churches are being built everywhere. Expressing of opinions, all well and fine, just keep it constructive instead of trying to be too extreme and running too fast (progressive) and be an obstacle to the grand agenda. Of course opposite opinions and sound can shapen up the grand agenda and fine-tune it, and even at points where it is bluntly huge mistakes can help it to be corrected. But I sincerely do not believe most of the people are giving and are capable enough to provide real constructive criticism, to often it becomes power hungry greedy people. Example: In HK 5 parlimant members from two parties went to the extreme of "resigning" to force a new election which they plan to contend in to "make a 'Revolutionary' point", results is that HK has to waste 100,000,000 HKD PUBLIC money in organizing the new election. These are absurd things you see in so-called democractic systems. Happening in Europe, Asia and America.

And eventually regarding the so-called freedom of speech, it really depends on the elite, either you live in China or in USA/Europe, if they indeed listen or not. From the elite to the provincial/state level to the county, community level, it really depends on the individual officials in charge if they listen and implement well-intended policies. Again, if China can set up a good transparant controlling body like the HK's ICAC for Mainland China, and trust level for the government bodies increase, I believe that the Chinese future is very bright. The whole system will be so much more efficient and productive.

Personally I feel it is just sad what is going on in the States, I am not so sure if the majority of your fellow Americans share with your opinion that they really believe your system already past the test. To see how president after president is destroying it is just rampantly darkening my eyes maybe. The constitution is well written, but is the ideology indeed being followed up by the people who should. Followed is one thing, is it being protected? Or was it being abused step by step by greediness and selfishness, causing whoever really still sincerely believe in that ideology to have ANY chance of getting up the ladder in protecting and fulfilling it? After all, isn't the American system supposed to provide the equality and the chance to move up? Individuals not being part of certain groups will probabaly never have the chance anymore to be there on the top waving your flag and produly sinnhe national song. It looks like that top of the pyramid is filled with hyeana's and snakes only...... These years I am seriously giving thoughts to which system will collapse faster, the one new experiment trying to feed over 20% of the population or the old one who shaped and formed a sole world superpower?

[edit on 27-1-2010 by yiersan]

US to clash with China?

In the olden days perhaps. US had learnt from the 5000 year recorded history of China. Patience. China will implode on its own.

For all the glowing attributions lay the foundation of blood and human skulls trampled upon by the tyranical commie regime. Freedom of speech may be disputable to those who are dumb or deaf, but what about freedom to live? Isnt that the very basic human right?

And yet, mere children, unarmed at that, are gunned down in broad daylight in Tiananmen 1989? Had that regime apologised? At least the japs apologised for their war actrocities, but the despicable commies were silent and even at times justified their murder of the common masses.

And in their silence, had their elites prospered, at the expense of the poor and the job opportunities of the world, by running sweat shops with their wealth. Only the immoral rich China elites are claiming the sky is not even the limit. Based on the Tiananmen incident and many others up to date, I can most certainly see the unlimitations done to humanity by the dictators and their lapdogs elite.

Everything about China is as fake as Lin Miaoke singing at the Olympics, all a mickey mouse song and dance stage show and nothing truly humanly substantative, except further enslavement of its people and the robbing of others' wealth and opportunity in the hands of corporatist whom commie masters welcomed with open arms. Birds of a feather then to flock together.

Commie faced when controlling the masses and Capitalist when dealing with money, not for social programmes, but for weapons of mass destruction to the citizens to protect their tyranny and destroy others.

There will no clash for sure. China will implode on its own. Americans will just sit back, protect their resources and human capital and await for the true inheritors of a modern responsible China to step forth.



[edit on 27-1-2010 by SeekerofTruth101]

Originally posted by SeekerofTruth101

And yet, mere children, unarmed at that, are gunned down in broad daylight in Tiananmen 1989? Had that regime apologised? At least the japs apologised for their war actrocities, but the despicable commies were silent and even at times justified their murder of the common masses.

too late to debate, just one note:
please provide the source where Japan apologized for all their war crimes starting from their invasion in China several years before the "WW2" started, and especially the Rape of Nanjing single event..... Btw, you might wanna check Japan's official history books used, and see what is written about WW2 ;-) Winners write history, and Japan seemed to be one of the winners out of the WW2, at least economic wise, and eventually who has the money who has it for the sayings, causing people like you to be brainwashed and blinded by these "peace loving humble polite dudes" and dare to compare a isolated terrible event with one of the biggest agressor's war crimes/disaster committer in WW2, the Nazis killed a lot? Compared to the Japs the Nazis were merely teenagers....Well, check out what the Japs did and again provide me the evidence they have apologized.... [Disclaimer: I do believe everyone can learn a lot from today's Japan, the pros and cons, and happened to have planned a holiday to Japan during Chinese New Year.]

Btw, for everyone really interested and sincerely care about all these "poor surpressed Chinese human beings by the evil Communist part". It would be interesting for you all to check out the Chinese history of the 100-150 years before 1979. And notice the disasters after disasters, either caused civil wars, colonists, invaders, crazy madmen dictators, those are merely black pages and has for a huge part formed the current agenda of why China need stability and sacrifices for the short-term for the benefits of the long-term gains, policies of 50-100 years are set from the 80s on. Who is too impatient, so be it.....


[edit on 27-1-2010 by yiersan]

to move back to the OP:

just got this from a friend:

Gates backs China in Google censorship spat

In an interview Monday with ABC television, Gates shrugged off China's repressive online policies as simply part of doing business in a foreign country. He pointed to censorship laws in Germany that forbid pro-Nazi statements which would be protected as free speech in the United States.

“And so you have got to decide, do you want to obey the laws of the countries you are in or not. If not, you may not end up doing business there,” Gates said.

Difference in culture, laws and regulations, deal with it....

Two weeks ago, Google said it was among the targets of a widespread, “highly sophisticated” attack originating from China aimed at the Gmail accounts of human rights advocates. Although there's little proof the hack actually came from China – and now reason to doubt the claim

[Additional source: 'Aurora' code circulated for years on English sites
But the cowboy stories and to most people what "google" claimed is for sure the truth, after all, it is google against "communists". Talking about propaganda and being ignorant.....

Gates went on to tell the New York Times that he was unimpressed by Google's threat after the attack to drop its search business in China in protest of censorship regulations on search results. “They've done nothing and gotten a lot of credit for it,” Gates sniped at Google, which trails well behind China's home-grown Baidu search engine within the country. “What point are they making?” he asked. “Now, if Google ever chooses to pull out of the United States, then I'd give them credit.”

Same as what I said in one of the first posts, Google is merely making noise, simply because they are not the monopoly in China with their search engine and get their ass kicked by Baidu....

reply to post by yiersan

Thanks!

Personally I feel it is just sad what is going on in the States, I am not so sure if the majority of your fellow Americans share with your opinion that they really believe your system already past the test. To see how president after president is destroying it is just rampantly darkening my eyes maybe. The constitution is well written, but is the ideology indeed being followed up by the people who should. Followed is one thing, is it being protected?

I think that events in American politics while disturbing and disruptive actually prove that the system is working and that there are in place checks and balances that hold it together. No shots have been fired, no militia groups have come forth, we still believe in our system and no one is moving to Canada or Europe! Probably in a year or 2 you will see a completely different political climate in the US and a much more conservative approach to spending and deficits.

Originally posted by plumranch

I think that events in American politics while disturbing and disruptive actually prove that the system is working and that there are in place checks and balances that hold it together. No shots have been fired, no militia groups have come forth, we still believe in our system and no one is moving to Canada or Europe! Probably in a year or 2 you will see a completely different political climate in the US and a much more conservative approach to spending and deficits.

Not to bash on USA or so, but I have American friends who would think otherwise and that your system needs some kind of renovation. There are indeed more governance over your system, but this governance has been started to be tarnished down step by step with the use deceiving tactics and propaganda, similar as in China and the rest of the world, but packaged in a different suit..... Again I and many others believe your once great nation has been abused and stolen of her glamour and fortune by greedy politicians, bankers, msm, corporates (Oil, Military etc) etc.... Thus it takes some real effort and awareness to continue keep the balance intact, after all, history's worst dictactors came way too often into power through a democratic "legal" route.....

[edit on 28-1-2010 by yiersan]

reply to post by yiersan

American friends who would think otherwise and that your system needs some kind of renovation.

The renovation has already begun and the 2010 election will probably bring about very decisive change. US nationalism is still very much alive and well on the left, right and libertarian.

The bottom line for any nation is emigration. People wanting to get into a country to work, escape an oppressive government, find opportunity or for the highly educated and talented to reach their potential.

Who do you know that is educated and talented wants to emigrate to England, France, Germany, South Africa, Isreal, Brasil, India and lastly China?

On the other hand the US has an abundance of people emigrating for all reasons and especially because they want to enjoy the technical challenges still available here in the US. Microsoft, Google, Apple and a host of others are still hiring! IE: If you are talented come here!

The challenge for developed nations now and in the future is how to attract new laborers, middle class and especially the educated and talented. That is very much an ongoing problem in the West that is not shared by the US.

Don't you think that must Chinese people that know about the US would much rather live in the US than in China. That is why a Chinese invasion of the US will never happen. The Chinese people know their government doesn't care if they get cancer and die working in terrible condtions



One hour after the Sichuan earthquake shook China, (One hour!), P.L.A. troops parachuted onto the scene to relay first hand reports back to the central government, four hours (Four hours!) after the earthquake, leaders were on the scene, allocating tasks and arranging assistance. The whole country joined as one, I was here in China at the time, I saw and felt this amazing act of humanity happen.

Now tell me......what did the U.S. do about Katrina?