Scientists say dolphins should be treated as 'non-human persons'

Originally posted by rapunzel222
reply to post by Mythtified

 

its so sad what people do to animals, and all because they think they are superior or more entitled than animals. Why? Becuz the bible says so? that is a lie. humans are no more entitled to life and space on this planet than any other animal, and its about time we started respecting other animals we share it with AS EQUALS and as having RIGHTS too. just like TREES should have rights. and all nature, since all is equal.

of course dolphins are intelligent.
octopus also should have rights and squid.
as should pigs, on the basis of intelligence,
and all sorts of monkeys and apes,
and dogs and cats,
and beavers,
and wolves,
and many other creatures,
including elephants, that demonstrate great intelligence.

actually crows are known to be more advanced tool users probably than chimps.
why dont crows have rights?
its known that parrots can do maths and talk,
but birds have no rights.

humanity frustrates me.

There has to be a line drawn. These animals cannot have the same rights as people.
That is just silly.
Rights to live. Rights to be free. Rights to have their homes unspoiled.
Yes. MAYBE.
But, to start anthropomorphizing animals is just childish and irresponsible.

The hardest truth to swallow, is that our reality is made up of Predators and Prey. There is no such thing as Manners, Sacrifice for another species, or compassion in the Animal Kingdom. There is no Right or Wrong.
Humans, have acquired Morals, Laws, and genuine caring for non-human lifeforms. But, for the most part, we cannot EXPECT any of that in return.

Whether it was because of Science or God, or something altogether different, it has no place in this discussion. When humans started contemplating "Right" and "Wrong", we stepped out of a Nature-based reality and into an entirely different world.

And, in the future, we might do this again, stepping into another new reality, as something opens our minds and spirits once again.

But, I don't think one species can bring another along with it, just through labeling and good intentions.

Nope. For now, these animals have to remain where they are. In the Animal Kingdom. And, until they speak right up, or let us know, somehow, that they want their rights, we will have to continue caring for them and protecting them, as "animals".

But, on the other hand, if you folks feel like mailing welfare checks to dolphins, and setting up giant fish tanks in court rooms, please, feel free.

But, they already get free health-care.

uh.. what the hell is this? after over 10,000 years i thought humanity knew by now that all life is precious. we shouldn't hold monkeys and dolphines higher than the rest of the animal kingdom because they're more human-like. so are rats and pigs.

humanity... what. a. shame.

reply to post by vasaga


Well, if you're unable to show it, but have the capability of inteligence, then you're a ghost. There is ALWAYS a way to communicate with the outside world if you are intelligent. Intelligence in and of itself demands it. If you had a blob that was made of neurons that was smarter than man, but lacked and ability to show it, it would still send off electrical signals. This was actually seen in the recent movie avatar, where the planet was the gaia hypothesis. It communicated by simply showing it. By it's own signals it showed intelligence. This was literally a biologically evolved god. A planet that cared for its self. But it could still communicate, even without any limbs or corporeal form whatsoever. Again, life finds away. if you're intelligent, you will find a way. If you can't, you're not intelligent. You're either a ghost or from another dimension, and therefore not able to be killed by humans.

As to gods, oh ye, we did make them up. Probably from observation of the natural world. tell me, look at the current culture of lolcat, lulz, /b/, and all that jazz. this is a complex culture, with a flying spaghetti monster god, his son raptorjesus, etc etc. This is a culture totally and utterly created from scratch. MADE UP. xenu did not come down and enlighten the world on the ways of keyboard cat and the great journey of the rick rolling youth. Go back in time, people are perfectly capable of creating just as complex fictions as us today. I'm a Catholic, yes, but even my religion has made up stuff, from when Christmas happened, to how every saint is venerated as a demi god. to pray to. The pope made up literally the entire existence of purgatory from scratch. Humans are extremely creative. I can, and have, made up grand stories. Just crack a novel open from your local library, and you'll see limitless materials to make up gods and religions with. Very simply put, people will believe in anything to make them feel better.


Oh, and about our near extinction. We were the only ones to survive. Why do you think we left Africa? Because it was a journey and we wanted to explore? Yes, partially. But also the fact that Africa was then a deserted desert with no life. Humans spread out throughout the world to find what we lost. Some of us returned or stayed in Africa, killed off our relative species, and became the only hominids, others did the same elsewhere. Humans are not moral creatures. Morality only came after culturally, it was the most successful method to build a successful nation.

Humans were forced to consume anything they could find. They wiped out any other species but themselves and a few cattle. Then, when the disaster ended, we found ourselves being a species hungry for new land and food, so we left. How many species has mankind wiped out? too many. That's an echo from our desperation of past generations long ago when our species began. No other species got innovation and creativity because any other species that could of was killed off by your ancestors. Neanderthals, woolly mammoths, homo erectus. Coutnless others. That's why.

reply to post by davesidious


I know what they think because one can very easily build the mentality of other species based on a few things. For all humanities in depth ideas of free will, do we really have it? Most people accept what they're taught culturally and never think anyway else. Once in a while somebody comes around and changes this, but rarely. The point is that humans are mammals. mammals are not an old species. Mammals are easy to predict. And it does seem that the more smarter a species is, the more similar their brains look to human brains. Parallel evolution. They'll never look like us, but eventually they will come to act like us. A species' behavior is very easy to map out once you know a few things. Few predators? very social? family packs? care? This species is compatible with human contact. it is nice. it can share emotions and love. etc etc. I've just described dozens of species. ranging from dolphins to apes.

[edit on 4-1-2010 by Gorman91]

[edit on 4-1-2010 by Gorman91]

[edit on 4-1-2010 by Gorman91]

Originally posted by davesidious
reply to post by vasaga

 

Being intelligent was a fluke of nature that suited us well. The more-intelligent proto-humans fared better than the less-intelligent proto-humans, and so intelligence was passed down to the entire species. We can see that no one taught us anything because we've discovered evidence for the evolution of our culture and society, too. That shows gradual, slight changes all along the journey from cavemen to farmers. No gaps are missing, and everything makes sense. It's not as if one day we were trying to throw rocks at the sun to fight off the scary sky-fire, and the next day trading stocks on the internet.

It's basic evolution. There is a bunch of evidence to support it. And no evidence to contradict it. None.

Deny ignorance. Accept the scientific method. Accept evolution.

Lol.. I said this in another thread, and I will say it again..

All knowledge and theories should be shared, but none of those should be forced upon anyone as the undeniable truth without the freedom of questioning them.

The reason of that? Well, I think you're smart enough to think of that on your own.

And evolution is no different... Especially since it has many holes in it, even though you said it all is perfect and gradual, that's far from the truth. If those gradual slight changes really occur, how does it explain all the animals that stayed the same for millions of years? And how come older civilizations seemed to have used technologies and traits that we don't understand or aren't using today? If you don't know which ones I'm talking about, I suggest you go out there and see if you find a few. Besides, "cavemen" were still human, just didn't use much technology. That still doesn't mean that we are smarter than they are, and it certainly is no sign of evolution. And basically, most of the evidence of the so called "proto-human" were either pig or monkey skeletons/bones, or simply disformed human skulls etc.

And tell me. What do you think of this? :

ancientx.com...

There are two possible answers for this.

a) Our carbon-dating methods are right. That would mean, those objects really ARE billions of years old, and everything we were taught about our history, especially evolution in its current state, is simply wrong.

b) Our carbon-dating methods are wrong. Well, in that case, the measurements of the age of these objects is wrong. However, the measurement of the age of fossils etc is also wrong, and again, we can throw evolution out the window.

In both cases, evolution doesn't stand. If you're gonna argue that they dated just these objects wrong, what's the guarantee that the rest is right?

This whole evolution thing has had a great impact on our morals, and in a negative sense as well. We can see that on how we treat animals, but also on how we treat each other. The "survival of the fittest" thing might be true to some extent, but that still doesn't give you the right to take what you DON'T need because you CAN.

Respect the animal kingdom, or any life for that matter, just like you respect yourself. And in any case that you don't respect yourself, respect others for being able to do something that you can't, which is, respect themselves, and resolve your own issues with yourself, by yourself, without including others into it. This should be a universal rule, but no, we prefer to live by "let me be a child and do anything I want when I want, because I am smarter than anyone and anything else".

Originally posted by Mythtified

Originally posted by rapunzel222
its so sad what people do to animals, and all because they think they are superior or more entitled than animals.

The findings of these scientists suggest that we should no longer classify dolphins as "animals". If they are to be regarded as genuine "persons", perhaps science should redefine "human" and "animal".

Science indicates that dolphins are second only to the human species in intelligence, but this is only as seen from the human perspective. Dolphins might consider us even below their intelligence level, and might have access to understanding and insight that we have not even begun to explore.
Their living environment is so different from ours (water in stead of air) that we cannot fathom what they are all about or why they live the way they do.

Certainly classifying them above the human intelligence would be unthinkable due to our cultural, religious and social conditioning which makes us believe that our own paradigm tops everything else.

Exactly. It's crazy how much money we put into wars, resources and research in outerspace, yet we don't even know our own planet. Just how of the World's oceans are unexplored, and we have no idea what there might be down there.

Some people think it's incredibly farfetch'd to think people could breathe underwater, but how bout when we were in our mama's wombs and were breathing in liquid then? Is it really that crazy to think that another intelligent lifeform could have evolved to the point of breathing in liquid? Naaaaaah

Talkin bout dolphins, it is incredible how many of the world think we are the superior being, and that it must be a fact. Who are we to say who's superior to anything?

Like Clairaudience, I highly recommend watching "The Cove". The one part where you see what the fishermen do the dolphins after they're rounded up.. damn. It's a shame seeing how most of the Japanese people are unaware of what's happening, and seem to have that "cuddly" mentality bout them as most others.

Originally posted by Gorman91
reply to post by vasaga

 

Well, if you're unable to show it, but have the capability of inteligence, then you're a ghost. There is ALWAYS a way to communicate with the outside world if you are intelligent. Intelligence in and of itself demands it. If you had a blob that was made of neurons that was smarter than man, but lacked and ability to show it, it would still send off electrical signals. This was actually seen in the recent movie avatar, where the planet was the gaia hypothesis. It communicated by simply showing it. By it's own signals it showed intelligence. This was literally a biologically evolved god. A planet that cared for its self. But it could still communicate, even without any limbs or corporeal form whatsoever. Again, life finds away. if you're intelligent, you will find a way. If you can't, you're not intelligent. You're either a ghost or from another dimension, and therefore not able to be killed by humans.

What if we can't measure what they can achieve in this real world with our senses or our equipment because we can't comprehend it?

As to gods, oh ye, we did make them up. Probably from observation of the natural world. tell me, look at the current culture of lolcat, lulz, /b/, and all that jazz. this is a complex culture, with a flying spaghetti monster god, his son raptorjesus, etc etc. This is a culture totally and utterly created from scratch. MADE UP. xenu did not come down and enlighten the world on the ways of keyboard cat and the great journey of the rick rolling youth. Go back in time, people are perfectly capable of creating just as complex fictions as us today. I'm a Catholic, yes, but even my religion has made up stuff, from when Christmas happened, to how every saint is venerated as a demi god. to pray to. The pope made up literally the entire existence of purgatory from scratch. Humans are extremely creative. I can, and have, made up grand stories. Just crack a novel open from your local library, and you'll see limitless materials to make up gods and religions with. Very simply put, people will believe in anything to make them feel better.

I knew this argument was coming.. And yet, I'll repeat the same as I did in my last post.. We can't make up stuff from thin air. We can only see correlations between them, and then add them together. All the stuff you posted here, are examples of the latter (correlations), not the former.

Lolcat: Cat and other random stuff
Flying spaghetti monster god: Spaghetti and flying are both observed things that we combined, and god, is yet undetermined where that actually came from, since again, we wouldn't suddenly come up with a god if we didn't see anything related to it. Monster is related to an experience of something scary looking or a threat to people.
raptorjesus: raptor and jesus

It's NOT made up. It's a correlation between two or more things. Now tell me. Where is the correlation when a civilization says, supposedly out of thin air, "gods came down to earth from the heavens" or anything close to it?

Oh, and about our near extinction. We were the only ones to survive. Why do you think we left Africa? Because it was a journey and we wanted to explore? Yes, partially. But also the fact that Africa was then a deserted desert with no life. Humans spread out throughout the world to find what we lost. Some of us returned or stayed in Africa, killed off our relative species, and became the only hominids, others did the same elsewhere. Humans are not moral creatures. Morality only came after culturally, it was the most successful method to build a successful nation.

Humans were forced to consume anything they could find. They wiped out any other species but themselves and a few cattle. Then, when the disaster ended, we found ourselves being a species hungry for new land and food, so we left. How many species has mankind wiped out? too many. That's an echo from our desperation of past generations long ago when our species began. No other species got innovation and creativity because any other species that could of was killed off by your ancestors. Neanderthals, woolly mammoths, homo erectus. Coutnless others. That's why.

Right.. So after living with scarce food for I don't know how many years, when things got back to normal, we suddenly wanted way more than what we needed to survive.. Out of nothing? Sorry but, I don't buy that.

There is actually a lagoon on Sugarloaf key Just north of Key West where the Navy and special forces keep Dolphins that were trained for various tasks like setting explosives on ships and killing enemy diver that might approach US vessels. They tried to reintroduce them into the wild but that failed. Turns out we made them neurotic. It's not a pretty sight they swim aimlessly day and night, they crave human contact and will call out to you but they are in a security fence and no one ventures in there. I have had contact with many bottle nose dolphin in open water and they are very smart and actually have a sense of humor

I don't think dolphins should be characterized as "people". I think they should be protected, along with all other marine mammals. They should not be hunted for food, and I believe that in a global sense, there should be severe repercussions for killing them.

It's pretty simple, really. They have intelligence, and we humans have an inherent desire to swim with them. Fine. Let's feed them out to sea, not in a stinking chlorinated prison. Let marine humans make boatloads of money from ferrying us landlubbers out to feed them and play with them. Make everyone sign a waiver against litigation should the dolphins choose to be amorous toward the humans.

They are WILD animals. I tried for three years to get aboard a diveboat of people that had regularly interacted with a wild dolphin that they named "Spot" for a prop scar on his flank. I never got to meet him on those dive runs, but once, finally, while diving for conch, Spot met me. It was a live-changing event for me, and I'm not even slightly embarrassed to say so. It was wonderous for me, and more than a tad scary.

I wish everyone could have that sort of edgy one-to-one event with a wild marine mammal. I'll never forget it. I really felt a communion between us, and I hate the thought of creatures such as Spot being hunted for food. Spot was known to hump people.......... frightened quite a few folks. I didn't want to be humped. and he didn't.

We had a group of handicapped divers come here and they were able to meet with Spot. I talked with three of the six, and all three indicated that they truly felt that Spot realized their limitations and accomodated them. The divemasters also said that Spot was particularly gentle, even bringing one diver up to the surface (Spot carrying them on his belly).

They aren't human. They might be better than us, but they aren't human. They should be protected, and I mean really protected. Protected from us.

Originally posted by Gorman91
reply to post by arbiture

 

Dominion means to care for. Some people take dominion as another word to "f*ck around with". Those people are not right. The president has dominion over the nation. Does he have a right to eat you? No. Dominion is not a right. It is a responsibility. Humans are the only species capable of helping animals and preserving them. IE, dominion is just like a shepherd having dominion over his flock. Care for it, or get eaten by the wolves.

For the most part, I agree with you. An animals "right" to eat you is based on the fact if humans behave stupidly around predaters, and they do eat you, rights have nothing to do with it. If your foolish or just very unluncky to get to close to a predator the following will happen. You beome lunch if the lion or whatever, is sick/hurt, hungry, or feels threatend. If you act like prey, and run for example you will trigger a violent response. As an aside when fearfull, I wonder if animals can really smell fear, given the hormones you release when frightened, cortosol for example. Anyway, treating animals as the same as humans just does not make sense. That has nothing to do with not abusing them.

You are spot on when you say humans have the responsibility, to given the ability to overwelm any other predator, we have the obligation of being proper shepards. Given our capability, we must be. Regarding viewing them as human, that assumes any animal or at least the more intelligent ones must understand something about about us. I have no idea what any given animal thinks or knows about humans. Most are afraid of us. Very wise. About us, if a lion eats your wife what are you going to do, sue him? Most animals can be trained, (unless your my cat), They can't really go beyond that. It's some thing like asking your dog to tell, one way or the other, which dog in your neighhood smells better.

Their perspective of us is beyond them, and vi-si-versa.



Most woud kill him. Sadly there is no choice. Once having killed a human, given were push overs, they may develope a taste for us.I believe everything has the right to survive. Using what ever resources thay/we have. Us included.

reply to post by Gorman91


I think you fail to appreciate just how important humankind's hands are. You mentioned elephants painting:
How are elephants supposed to make canvas to paint on without hands?
How are elephants supposed to mine the raw materials that make up the colors we paint with without hands?

The only tool, and it is an extremely limited tool, that elephants have is their trunk. It is just about good enough to help them drink water and pull vegetation off plants but that is about it.

Dolphins and whales don't even have that, they have flippers that can't even touch.

Would you feel like trying to show your thoughts and ideas onto items when manipulating tools to write with is all but impossible? I am pretty sure I would get so frustrated that I would give up and not bother.

You mention that these animals can never be equal with humans. I think it depends on what you mean by equal. Clearly we humans do not all possess the same academic capabilities or the same sports abilities, we are not equal in ability.

When we say all humans are equal I believe we are referring to human rights, equality before the law. Under the law I think dolphins, whales, and elephants should be protected the same as humans, they have brains as big as or bigger than humans. If they are self-aware but trapped inside bodies which limit their ability to express their self-awareness then it is a travesty to kill or harm them.

I look forward to the day that 2 things happen, that we are able to communicate with dolphins, whales, and elephants (if they truly are self-aware) and that we have the genetic engineering knowledge to offer them the ability to have arms and legs like we humans.

reply to post by Mythtified


Interesting choice of the vocabulary there? Tell me, what known creatures exist that one could not label, if one FELT inclined, 'non-human persons'? How does that change the lot of dolphins? How is this news? How is this scientific research? This reminds me of the olde Elizabethan order of the universe?

We've known for quite a bit that humans are theoretically worth respecting and protecting, but we definately still seem to be struggling as a species with whether that scientific advice, alert, or deduction should alter our behaviour in any way?

I suspect what they're driving at is some kind of legal-status-of-dolphins re-evaluation. Perhaps they would become the first non-humans to justify allied military action to secure their future or safety, on what we used to call 'humantitarian' grounds perhaps? It could give the Cod wars a whole new perspective?

What if we change their status and then another scientist 'says' they can communicate with us? How do they get represented, could they gain a seat at the UN? Could they sue for damages? Could they organise a rebellion and conspire against us? The Simpsons were ahead of their time I tell you.





[edit on 4-1-2010 by curioustype]

reply to post by argentus


Star for you. Really liked your post.

reply to post by arbiture


I sort of agree, in the sense that, you can't expect a lion to follow human rules. The lion also can't expect us to follow his rules.. It goes both ways. The whole thing about treating dolphins as persons comes to having respect for them and treating them as respected beings.

Edit:
reply to post by Bobbox1980


And a star for you too

[edit on 4-1-2010 by vasaga]

Originally posted by Conclusion
Maybe we should start taxing dolphins like we tax other persons then. Or elect one as leader, it just might actually help us.

I don't want to be paid with fish...

reply to post by Mythtified


So let me get this straight... it's not cool to kill intelligent species but it's completely acceptable to kill species that we consider stupid?

This makes me laugh. Because if that's the rule of thumb then it should be ok to kill humans since we are the dumbest specie in existence.

We are the only ones who can't live in harmony with our environment, not to mention that we are so clever that we need to modify (perhaps destroy) the environment surrounding us so we can sustain our very own lives.... this is so smart that it comes bundled with a pack of Prozac®.

S&F for the dolphins though. For being so stupid to the point of bothering to communicate with humans.

reply to post by vasaga


if we cannot measure or be affected by this intelligence, then why would we be bothered by it or care about it? That's like saying there's a supercomputer on top of a mountain with the knowledge of the universe, but once you get there, it will always teleport to another mountaintop. Then why bother it? You cannot be affected by it nor have any interaction by it, and there is no way for you to experience it. It, in essence, does not exist other than it is impossible to get. You've now crossed way passed any worry of humanity. Obviously this intelligence does now what to be with you. Why bother what doesn't want you? Because if its so ghastly intelligent, it should know how to get through this invisible barrier. If it doesn't, then don't bother it.

Ok, play your game. What is God? man + natural powers. Not hard at all. What is afterlife? Life + not ending. Done. you made it up from previous things.

Oh, and yes we can make stuff up out of thin air. Star trek made up warp drive out of thin air. Turns out they were right. Ancient peoples made up the term automatons, which later came to be viewed as robots.

Sorry, but humans do make up stuff from thin air. I do all the time. This is what makes us human. As it turns out, the making up of stuff sometimes gets us going for inventions. For instance, I one day thought, why the hell is it so hard to bend space time? So I made up a simulation in my brain and talked to myself (and answered. woo hoo insanity). Here's what happened. I invite you to look inside my brain, and the conversations within that make up stuff from thin air.

How can one travel faster then light? Screw it, I can. why? because I say so, now shut up. K then, you got this here space time. gravity makes it suck in 3d. More mas, more suck. Sucking slows down time though. GOOD, you fool! Oh, ok then, whatever. Ok, so we got this sucking power. SPIN IT! why? Cause I says so. Spinning is fun. Fine, what does that do? I dunno, f*cks up space time? Yea, it's called an ergosphere. OH YEA! spinning sucking power makes time go faster. the hell? why? because mr universe says so. Ok, so we got the suck, we got the faster time, and we got the slow time near the suck. Now we've got ourselves a black hole, congrats. Give it volume. why? Cause I don't give a damn what the universe says, that singularity is going to have bloody volume! but you can't! do it anyway! ok fine, here. You have a point mass with volume, everyone clap at your little freak of the universe, now explain how a pointmass can have volume. Cause I says so. fine, it has volume. Wait a tic! does the volume have a core? well it has volume, so yea, duh. MAKE IT HOLLOW! HOLY CRAP, HOLLOW EVENT HORIZON = FORWARD TIME MACHINE! now what? do something with the ergosphere! what? I don't know, blow it up. blow up space time? yea sure, why not. Na, that does noting... INVERT IT! k, you know have an event horizon around an ergosphere.... how ? Cause I can. Ok.... Well how? Because spinning lots of mass makes one, and newton's shell theorem allows it. Newton's what? NEWTON'S SHELL THEOREM! GRAVITY WITH A HOLLOW CORE MAKES 0 GRAVITY! o...k... Make it a cylinder. why? give it more dimensions, make it a cylinder, not a sphere. Ok, now how are you going to prevent a rotating hollow black hole from sucking up the earth. Antimatter! what? blow it up when you don't need it. Ok, so now we have a cylin-ELECTRIFY IT! what? cylinder electric, antimatter negative, another cylinder inside electric. rotate it. HOLY CRAP, WARP DRIVE! By having a rotating cylinder mass (superfluid antimatter) spin while electrically compressed, it will form a borderline hollow black hole, which will generate an inverted ergosphere within, thus canceling out gravity and allowing people inside the 0 gravity zone to go faster than light because information cannot breach the event horizon to tell the ergo sphere to slow down, and relativity wise, the ergosphere pushes the event horizion faster then light!

enjoy it? That's my brain. my brain makes up stuff fay and night. with nothing to base it off of. I didn't even know about newton's shell theorem. I made it up, then later on called it that when I realized it was real. Graviton to electric converter to power a quantum tunneling device via unentangling entangled particles, and sending through the quantum tunnel photons to keep it open and make a portal? oh yea, I just did that. The fact is that my brain makes up random crap, with no reason, and pops it out on the daily. How a bout a species born on a low gravity, high atmosphere planet that has lungs on its tongue and runs to breathe without wasting energy? my brain can make it.

Sorry, humans are creative like that.


Oh, don't get why humans suddenly needed more then they require to survive? ask the US, that consumes WAY more than its fair share of resources. Why do all nations that are wealthy suddenly grow fat and lazy? Why is it that humans suck at resource management? because once we have what we need, we instinctively as a species assume we can eat that much for ever. we as individuals know the consequences, but that doesn't stop what everyone else does.

reply to post by Bobbox1980


That's too close minded. you assume that painting, the human method, is the means to express ones self for all species. A dolphin can draw in sand on the ocean floor, use tools with it's mouth, etc etc. AN elephant has fruit and a wall. Understand that assuming an animal wants hands and legs goes hand in hand with humans wanting to make everything like themselves, rather then accept things for what they are and helping them develop along their own path by being a Shepard to prevent their extinction.

And I said animals can never look like us, but they may become mentally equal to us in time. Assuming they want to be like us is another problem. If you give an elephant or dolphin arms and legs, it is no longer a dolphin or an elephant. It loses what makes it it's own cultural future and entity. It becomes nothing more then a debtor to humanity. And religiously, consider this. Elephants and dolphins seem so innocent, as if they didn't "eat of the tree of knowledge" or something like that. Do you want to curse them with the same human faults? why not let them make their own history, and simply help them along the way. What happens if we meet aliens out there who are floating brains that can use tails to do things. They would greatly benefit from a human body, but doing that eliminates and ability for the species to take pride in who it is. It's just another potential slave for some future conqueror. Perhaps letting them become their own great species is the better path. One can help, but forcing one's own form onto others is nothing short of imperialism, eugenics, and racism. Protecting species from extinction, and helping them to remain an entity in and of themselves is the right path. Give them the tools to succeed, like survival and protection from 'survival of the fittest", but don't make them yourself.

[edit on 4-1-2010 by Gorman91]

reply to post by Gorman91


Putting words after each other without them having a significant meaning is not making up stuff, because well, it has no meaning.. Lol. That's simply following the rules of language but using random words.

About the warp-drive, same thing.. It began with science, which found out after lots of correlations, that FTL travel is not possible, and that time is relative. Lightspeed is a limit, we want to go faster than light, and time is "bendable".. What can we come up with? Exactly.. Again, it's all combinations and correlations..

About God.. Man and natural powers? And.. Where did the idea of dominating natural powers come from? And why a man? Why not something else? Do you really think, that people that observe the stars and make calendars based of stars, would actually sit back and say
"Well.. A man from the heavens with a beard must have done all this.. Yeah.. That's all. Let worship him". I doubt that.. They may not be technologically advanced, but they're certainly not THAT stupid xD

Anyway, I'm done with this discussion. You already made up your mind, I made up my mind. That's it.

Edit: And oyeah, I forgot. The first part of your post, that we have no use for it, does not mean, that it's not something valuable for other species or for the future. Say you could travel back in time. Would Bluetooth be measurable or usable to a person 300 years ago? Nope, not really.. Does that mean that we today, are smarter than that person 300 years ago? Nope, not really.. That was my whole point.

[edit on 4-1-2010 by vasaga]

reply to post by Gorman91


If I gave you the impression that I would force dolphins, whales, and elephants to have arms and legs then my words were not clear.

I merely meant that with the ability to communicate with these animals and the ability to genetically modify them to give them hands and feet, that we could communicate our ability to do this for them if they wished it.

Right now these animals are very close to being literal brains in a vat, almost completely unable to modify their surrounding environment. I think it would be nice to give them the choice to change that if they so chose. If they were self-aware I imagine some of those animals would choose the procedure while others would not. I imagine some are conservative and would be proud of who they are and not want to change while others would be interested in exploring the world, the sciences, the galaxy and jump at the opportunity the procedure provided.


As far as dolphins drawing in the sand, what would be the point? Sand gets washed away in no time, if they are attempting to communicate with one another, voice communication makes more sense. I suppose elephants could smash fruit against a wall but considering fruit is food I would think they would not want to waste it since they are not physically able to be farmers and grow their own.

reply to post by Mythtified


I had a close encounter of the first kind with a dolphin while fishing in my little boat. He sidled up and rolled over to one side and just watched me with one eye almost out of the water.

He then proceeded to chat to me, I have no idea what he was saying, it might have been "give me a fish mate" I don't know, but he stayed there for 30 minutes or more just chatting. I had never felt so at peace in my whole life.

reply to post by vasaga


Well God is viewed as a man is he not? Not a dolphin, not goo. A man. Therefore some human creativity was needed.

Also, the whole point is that the creation came BEFORE the science was known. Back in the good 'ol days, people made generation ships. Then somebody said "I don't care what science says, I say it can be pulled together" and years later, it was proven. There was no forethought. Somebody made it up.

Also consider one other fact. Somebody made up language. They simply stated that somethign would be called "blah blah blah". Creation of a word.

Yes, most primitive art is based off of something. But everything has a genesis. Most of the time these days, somebody simple says something is because they say so, it is. Then science proves it.

What you said is not true, because what star trek did was simply give science the finger and create, from scratch, their own science. They then proved it. If they discovered space could not bend, then they would be wrong, and oh well for them. They, the writers, created from scratch, a made up scientific law. Then science learned from sci fi, and proved.

Same thing with teleporters. They simply said on Star trek that you can convert mass to energy and beam it back up, then put it back to mass. This was not possible, until they discovered it was.

And finally, i give you Tesla. If you think Tesla got his ideas from something else, think again. Because they TOLD him AC power was impossible, but he made up his own science, and then proved it.

Also, the reason I know I'm right is this. Apes and most other species are faster at math and logic then humans. If all we know was based off something, and not made up, then apes should have beat us long ago in getting to where we did.

It's all in the graph. Exponential technological growth indicates making stuff up. Linear technological growth indicates dependency of what is already known, and not able to make stuff up from scratch. Neanderthals, with the same brains as ours, did not have innovation and such things. As such, they had the same tools until we came along and should them better.

If what you say is real, our technological growth should be linear, but it is anything but that.