2012: Did it ever occur to anyone that just maybe...

Originally posted by lpowell0627

Originally posted by Algebra

So whats your point? Your actualy proving what i just said. That which has happened before will happen again given a long enough ammount of time. Its the law of Averages.

Exactly. But ignoring whaqt transpired nearly 26000 years ago JUST BECAUSE there is ALSO a religious connotation is rather short-sighted.

God did'nt tell me this, so why try to use it as an excuse to control people, By claiming he did. Thats my point about religeons, and what difference does it have to me now in my one little 100 year life. Whats written thousands of years ago in the bible. This is what i mean by living in the past. We need new ideas. A whole new approach if were going to move forward.

Again, you are so blinded by the word GOD and whatever implications that you think it has, that you fail to recognize the deeper, NON-spiritual meaning behind all of this.

People hear "religeon" and they become blind to everything that follows that one word.

Again, forget the spiritual aspect for a moment and focus on the history of it.

The Bible was written by people that walked the Earth. Just because some people have elevated their status and chosen to worship them, does not omit their existence nor does it merely refute all of their messages.

Again, the Bible is like a real estate ad. (I am not belittling religion, but attempting to find common ground between believers and non-believers). If you remove the adjectives and "creativity" you will find the facts on what you are contemplating "buying" or in the case of the Bible, buying into.

If people had chosen to worship Benjamin Franklin, or Plato, or Aristotle, would it diminish their findings? Would it negate the relaying of times as they were? No, but it would ensure that along the way their messages would be elevated, expounded, and embellished.

The Hopi Indians, Mayans, I-Ching, Bible, Quaran, and other "works", all have very different COMPLETE messages. However, it is in the similarities that you will find what's most interesting and telling. And the similarities have nothing to do with faith, but rather are a very interesting culmination of history.

I understand what your saying and it makes a lot of sense.
But what bearing do these messages, embelished or not have on us here today.
What do we gain from wisdom that is from another time altoghether and does'nt relate to the problems we need sollutions to today.

They clog the wheels of progression because people can only accept that which is written in the bible. Closing there eyes to new ideas and ways of thinking.

If a mathematician comes up with a formula that turns out to be wrong. He does'nt use it anyway and try to make everything fit around it. He starts again and approaches it from another direction.

Originally posted by Algebra
I understand what your saying and it makes a lot of sense.
But what bearing do these messages, embelished or not have on us here today.
What do we gain from wisdom that is from another time altoghether and does'nt relate to the problems we need sollutions to today.

They do relate. The Fall of the Roman Empire for example. The same ideals and practices that led to the fall of that empire are still being practiced and expounded upon today. Just because they used different methods (horseback versus cars for example) does not influence the intial action and the subsequent reaction. History DOES repeat itself -- it simply takes on a different form representative of that ages' particular advances.

Hitler for example. The people that followed him were so blind, that when people started "waking up" to the possibility that his power was becoming too dangerous, they were characterized as defectors and nutjobs. Subsequently imprisoned and/or murdered. It wasn't until thousands of people were being killed, turning quickly into millions, that people said: "Hey, we were all duped."

They clog the wheels of progression because people can only accept that which is written in the bible. Closing there eyes to new ideas and ways of thinking.

This is where we leave the world of history and enter into the realm of religion. And I agree with you completely. It is not necessarily the original text that is flawed, but rather when people begin interjecting emotion, inference, and deeper meaning into what was written that it becomes problematic.

It is not whether or not Jesus walked the Earth that is in dispute. It is the meaning behind WHY, if any, he walked the Earth that creates the religious divide.

History = Jesus existed.
Religeon = Jesus, Savior, God, worship, and so on.

If a mathematician comes up with a formula that turns out to be wrong. He does'nt use it anyway and try to make everything fit around it. He starts again and approaches it from another direction.

True enough. Which is exactly why people today still study the texts from the past. The problem becomes WHEN someone realizes that the original mathemeticians formula was incorrect. There have been many "theories" that carried on for years, only to find someone willing to challenge it and in turn, disprove it. The sun spot cycle for example. Twenty years ago our scientists knew NOTHING about it whatsoever. The Mayans, however, did and documented the sun's behavior on their calendar. After a period of time, they were also able to draw correlations between the behavior on the sun and affects on Earth. This was only able to be done after many periods in which the same patterns would appear. The patterns then formed cycles.

Let me try to explain it this way:

The Mayans were astronomical wonders. Their calendar is an example of their understanding of math, cycles, movement of constellations, identifying cosmic cycles that foreshadowed Earthly events (such as volatile weather patterns), etc. They used these calendars to determine the best times for war, harvest, birth, etc.

Now, as with the Bible and the Mayans, people have interpretted their messages or meaning using knowledge we have today. People tend to forget that when reading anything from the past, one must always have the "key". The key is these cases is the beliefs that followed the meaning and explanations.

For example, if the Mayans believed that earthquakes were underground Gods showing displeasure -- and we analyzed a text that said every [insert timeline], when the stars line up as [insert depiction], the Gods will again show their displeasure by shaking the ground and crumbling structures. And we see on their calendar the "marks" or "cycles" that follow said Gods wrath -- what can we take from this? Do we dismiss it simply because they labeled them as Gods? Or rather, do we remove the BELIEFS associated and simply read it as informative text:

Every [insert timeline] when the stars line up [insert depiction] there will be an increase of Earthquakes.

Note: I used that for illustrative purposes and is not the beliefs of the Mayans.

That was the point I was making about the importance of historical texts and writings once one can remove the unnecessary associated beliefs, inferences, interpretations, etc.

Originally posted by lpowell0627

Originally posted by Algebra
I understand what your saying and it makes a lot of sense.
But what bearing do these messages, embelished or not have on us here today.
What do we gain from wisdom that is from another time altoghether and does'nt relate to the problems we need sollutions to today.

They do relate. The Fall of the Roman Empire for example. The same ideals and practices that led to the fall of that empire are still being practiced and expounded upon today. Just because they used different methods (horseback versus cars for example) does not influence the intial action and the subsequent reaction. History DOES repeat itself -- it simply takes on a different form representative of that ages' particular advances.

Hitler for example. The people that followed him were so blind, that when people started "waking up" to the possibility that his power was becoming too dangerous, they were characterized as defectors and nutjobs. Subsequently imprisoned and/or murdered. It wasn't until thousands of people were being killed, turning quickly into millions, that people said: "Hey, we were all duped."

They clog the wheels of progression because people can only accept that which is written in the bible. Closing there eyes to new ideas and ways of thinking.

This is where we leave the world of history and enter into the realm of religion. And I agree with you completely. It is not necessarily the original text that is flawed, but rather when people begin interjecting emotion, inference, and deeper meaning into what was written that it becomes problematic.

It is not whether or not Jesus walked the Earth that is in dispute. It is the meaning behind WHY, if any, he walked the Earth that creates the religious divide.

History = Jesus existed.
Religeon = Jesus, Savior, God, worship, and so on.

If a mathematician comes up with a formula that turns out to be wrong. He does'nt use it anyway and try to make everything fit around it. He starts again and approaches it from another direction.

True enough. Which is exactly why people today still study the texts from the past. The problem becomes WHEN someone realizes that the original mathemeticians formula was incorrect. There have been many "theories" that carried on for years, only to find someone willing to challenge it and in turn, disprove it. The sun spot cycle for example. Twenty years ago our scientists knew NOTHING about it whatsoever. The Mayans, however, did and documented the sun's behavior on their calendar. After a period of time, they were also able to draw correlations between the behavior on the sun and affects on Earth. This was only able to be done after many periods in which the same patterns would appear. The patterns then formed cycles.

Let me try to explain it this way:

The Mayans were astronomical wonders. Their calendar is an example of their understanding of math, cycles, movement of constellations, identifying cosmic cycles that foreshadowed Earthly events (such as volatile weather patterns), etc. They used these calendars to determine the best times for war, harvest, birth, etc.

Now, as with the Bible and the Mayans, people have interpretted their messages or meaning using knowledge we have today. People tend to forget that when reading anything from the past, one must always have the "key". The key is these cases is the beliefs that followed the meaning and explanations.

For example, if the Mayans believed that earthquakes were underground Gods showing displeasure -- and we analyzed a text that said every [insert timeline], when the stars line up as [insert depiction], the Gods will again show their displeasure by shaking the ground and crumbling structures. And we see on their calendar the "marks" or "cycles" that follow said Gods wrath -- what can we take from this? Do we dismiss it simply becaus

Your obviously a historian and indeed have a great knowlege of that which has gone before. But are'nt we right back where we started in the first place. You can look at past texts to gain an incite in to the future. I accept this, but then what? What purpose does it actualy serve.

You cant get an exact date for an occurance. so all your left with is the knowlege that it will happen. Knowlege you can get your self anyway by applying the laws of averages or using common sense.

Now as for taking the "Religiouse ellement" out of it. very clever by the way. Your actually steering me away from my original point. Why should people have to live there lives a certain way just because these upcoming events will occur as written in the bible for example..

Living my whole life as a christian does'nt change or effect the event. Nor will it prepare me for something which is yet to happen. It merely constrains me to the ideology contained within that religeon untill that day. It wont save me.

Hence the religeons to which these texts are related are nothing more than devices of control. They can tell you the end is coming. They can even give you the signs that its on its way. But you or i could do that without the need for all the worship and sacrifice by applying common sense.

Something very thought provoking was said in the Movie AVATAR that I saw the other day...

One of the blue alien creatures was telling the main character Jake that " Everything is energy, all energy is borrowed and one day must return " or given back.....

Basically all everything is is energy....light, heat, sound.......all energy...

And it all effects everything and also it can all be brought back to the source....


Energy can't die, because nothing would exist then.....


O and to the OP...

About 65% of the population of earth are just VERY ignorant people who are just genuinely not smart people, nor are they ever going to be.....


And this dumb knowledge is passed from generation to generation and becomes tradition somewhere to believe things that are just so ignorant.....

The US for instance........we believe the craziest sh*t to be true, but when something that doesn't seem like it ever could be true , is presented with evidence and fact, then we say it's " CRAZY ! "


We suck as a species..

The problem I have with 2012, is everything in the universe is expanding. It's all interacting with each other, so these cycles are actually unpredictable. Didn't we just find out that our galaxy was in the process of merging with another one? Wouldn't this merge sort of make any long term predictions null? I think we can have fairly accurate predictions on sun cycles, but even then it's just a norm that can be deviated from to quite an extent. Trying to chart galactic, or cosmic cycles to a specific date seems beyond reason to me. Perhaps we can get in the ballpark of 5-10% when an event will happen, but if the cycle is 1,000's of years, that means this event could have been energy causing the industrial revolution, to something that's gonna happen in several hundred years. I just think 2012 is hogwash.

Originally posted by SquirrelNutz
Why is everyone so quick to dismiss that EARTH could be affected by outside forces just as all other stellar entities

I don't believe that ANYONE dismisses the possibility, or even the certainty of such an event. I believe that many people just don't buy into a specific date for such an occurrence. It could happen any minute now or it could be 10s of thousands of years off. 2012 is all hype in my opinion. But the certainty of a collision with another celestial object is real.

BUT, why even worry about it? When it happens, it happens. And there isn't anything anyone can do about it. So why diminish the quality of life by stressing out about something that is unpredictable and uncontrollable?

Just my 2-cents

[edit on 22-12-2009 by Aggie Man]

Originally posted by Algebra
You cant get an exact date for an occurance. so all your left with is the knowlege that it will happen. Knowlege you can get your self anyway by applying the laws of averages or using common sense.

Actually, the Law of Averages does not apply to mathematically sound conclusions. Rather, it used to try to make "sense" out of seemingly random, but recurring instances.

For example, cicadas emerge in swarms every 17 years. It has nothing to do with coincidence or randomness. Now, there are other things, such as climate change, that can alter their cycle, but that in of itself becomes the new cycle. The new cycle of course could not be determined until enough "new" emergences occured and were recorded.

Now, most people are aware of the cycle of cicadas because it happens, more than once, in their lifetimes. This can also be applied to Halley's Comet. The majority of people will witness this event as well -- because it is a cycle (every 76 years) that on average, most people will witness at least once.

Now, the Mayans thought that there were grander cycles. Cycles that exceeded the average person's life but would be beneficial to those that come after them. This is why their calendar is actually a cumulative effort, compiled for generations, and perfected over time as more and more "events" continued to happen. Now, in Mayan literature (and this is a very watered down explanation), they refer to the movement of the constellations as battles between one another. When Venus for example, would re-emerge, (the Transit of Venus or when it passes in front of the sun in between Earth and the sun) it was because she was victorious in her battle. However, their description of the event -- much like religious texts -- is not important to recognizing that Venus does in fact pass in between the sun and Earth every 243 years. Does it matter that the Mayans considered and depicted constellations as beings? Not necessarily unless that is what one chooses to also believe.

Living my whole life as a christian does'nt change or effect the event. Nor will it prepare me for something which is yet to happen. It merely constrains me to the ideology contained within that religeon untill that day. It wont save me.

True enough. If the weatherman says that it is going to rain tomorrow, you don't need to wait for God to tell you to take an umbrella. But rather, you rely on the weatherman's expertise to inform you of whether or not it's going to rain -- and then prepare for it in order to protect oneself.

As far as religion being constraining, it depends on what particular faith a person is and how they interpret their faith. The church has also become a business which (in my opinion) has completely altered religions to begin with. But again, we are entering into interpretations and faith.
For me personally, I don't use faith to live my life -- I use faith to help me get through the things I can't understand.

Hence the religeons to which these texts are related are nothing more than devices of control. They can tell you the end is coming. They can even give you the signs that its on its way. But you or i could do that without the need for all the worship and sacrifice by applying common sense.

This reminds of: You can lead a man to water, but you can't make him drink.

I'll compare again to this: If Obama tells you that Yellowstone is going to erupt and anyone in the danger zones should evacuate -- do you wait for God? Or does your own free will come into play and realize that you choose to survive, that the probability of Yellowstone erupting is likely, and that to ensure your safety you are going to evacuate.

reply to post by SquirrelNutz


Have you ever read a book series called The Ark of Millions of Years?

It was co-authored by that guy who made the mini-haarp demonstration on that Jesse Ventura show. Does a wonderful job looking at various scriptures and tries to pull together one story of "The Creation" from all the similarities found and then eventually gets to the "End".

You might even find the first two books on mp3 floating around on some of the torrent networks.



So yes, people have looked at the past to try and get a sense of what the future may have for us. People have considered that maybe there is something to all these old books regarding the "end of the age", the same goes for all the stone monuments and symbols purposefully constructed for people of this time to see as a reminder from the past.

Why even bother going through all the effort if there wasn't something of substance to convey?

Even Bhuddist temples in Thailand have floor designs showing nested spheres with crosses, ying/yang, in the center. Murals depicting, trees with three tiers and people floating in the sky inside of portals or "flying machines" fighting each other.

2012 is the end of one cycle and the beginning of another. And it really is astronomically sound. If you can, imagine the path of Earth as it travels along the Milky Way Galaxy, as a warped or wavy vinyl record. In its course the Earth / Solar System goes up and then it goes down...in doing so it moves away from and then back into the debris field that forms the spirals of the galaxy. This takes 26,000 years.
If I remember, the Mayans believe there have been 5 Previous cycles that they celebrate. Each one culminated in destruction at some point. This is where we mistakenly associate destruction with 2012, it will come, but date to be announced.
This would further give creedence to those that believe in ancient, advanced civilizations. Artifacts and forbidden archeology can be explained in this context.

reply to post by lpowell0627


Please show me where the mayans tracked earthquakes and came up with mathematical formulas that predicted them...or how constellations etc somehow have an effect on the weather or harvests. Most of the mayans beliefs were formed through basic astronomy with a nice big layer of superstition(astrology) on top no matter how you much dice it.


[edit on 23-12-2009 by Solomons]

reply to post by Aggie Man

I don't believe that ANYONE dismisses the possibility, or even the certainty of such an event. I believe that many people just don't buy into a specific date for such an occurrence. It could happen any minute now or it could be 10s of thousands of years off. 2012 is all hype in my opinion. But the certainty of a collision with another celestial object is real.

I'll assume you have not watched the video I referenced in the first post: the reason why it IS happening now (not sure I'm a big 12/21/12-specific date advocate, either) and can't (won't) happen 10s of 1000s of years off, is because the SCIENCE (and history) says so. Take the time.

BUT, why even worry about it? When it happens, it happens. And there isn't anything anyone can do about it. So why diminish the quality of life by stressing out about something that is unpredictable and uncontrollable?

There may be nothing that can be done about 'it', but there IS something that can be done about surviving 'it'. And, who's diminishing their quality of life? You make too many assumptions - it's okay to think/talk about this stuff, plan ahead, and still enjoy life. Those aren't mutually exclusive activities.

Originally posted by SquirrelNutz
You make too many assumptions

I will check back with you on 12/22/2012 and let you know who is making too many assumptions

Originally posted by Solomons
reply to post by lpowell0627

 

Please show me where the mayans tracked earthquakes and came up with mathematical formulas that predicted them...or how constellations etc somehow have an effect on the weather or harvests. Most of the mayans beliefs were formed through basic astronomy with a nice big layer of superstition(astrology) on top no matter how you much dice it.


[edit on 23-12-2009 by Solomons]

Sure. But first I should point out that you obviously didn't read my entire posts since I already addressed the astrology aspect to their calendars. See the part I wrote about whether or not it matters if they viewed constellations as beings if they were still able to track their movement accurately.

You also didn't accurately read what I wrote about earthquakes.

But here is the rest of the information you requested:

The most important of these calendars is the one with a period of 260 days. This 260-day calendar was prevalent across all Mesoamerican societies, and is of great antiquity (almost certainly the oldest of the calendars). It is still used in some regions of Oaxaca, and by the Maya communities of the Guatemalan highlands. The Maya version is commonly known to scholars as the Tzolkin, or Tzolk'in in the revised orthography of the Academia de las Lenguas Mayas de Guatemala.[2] The Tzolk'in is combined with another 365-day calendar (known as the Haab, or Haab' ), to form a synchronized cycle lasting for 52 Haabs, called the Calendar Round. Smaller cycles of 13 days (the trecena) and 20 days (the veintena) were important components of the Tzolk'in and Haab' cycles, respectively.

Many Maya Long Count inscriptions are supplemented by a Lunar Series, which provides information on the lunar phase and position of the Moon in a half-yearly cycle of lunations.

A 584-day Venus cycle was also maintained, which tracked the heliacal risings of Venus as the morning and evening stars. Many events in this cycle were seen as being astrologically inauspicious and baleful, and occasionally warfare was astrologically timed to coincide with stages in this cycle.

Other, less-prevalent or poorly understood cycles, combinations and calendar progressions were also tracked. An 819-day count is attested in a few inscriptions; repeating sets of 9- and 13-day intervals associated with different groups of deities, animals and other significant concepts are also known.

the repetition of the various calendric cycles, the natural cycles of observable phenomena, and the recurrence and renewal of death-rebirth imagery in their mythological traditions were important and pervasive influences upon Maya societies. This conceptual view, in which the "cyclical nature" of time is highlighted, was a pre-eminent one, and many rituals were concerned with the completion and re-occurrences of various cycles. As the particular calendaric configurations were once again repeated, so too were the "supernatural" influences with which they were associated. Thus it was held that particular calendar configurations had a specific "character" to them, which would influence events on days exhibiting that configuration. Divinations could then be made from the auguries associated with a certain configuration, since events taking place on some future date would be subject to the same influences as its corresponding previous cycle dates. Events and ceremonies would be timed to coincide with auspicious dates, and avoid inauspicious ones.[6]

A fourth theory is that the calendar is based on the crops. From planting to harvest is approximately 260 days.

You really can just Google this all yourself. I don't claim to have any secret knowledge.

Your next inquiry should be regarding Mayan rituals. That will give you even more insight to what I was talking about.

Source:
en.wikipedia.org...

reply to post by Solomons


The Mayans calendars are very exacting and show that the cyclic relationships of the cosmos are highly predictable, and the Mayan calendar stuff can be found all over the Internet if you simply look for that stuff yourself. Try going to YouTube and watching some videos on the Mayans.

Destructive earthquakes are highly scientifically predictable. Destructive earthquakes are 100% predictable 8 hours to 8 days in advance as to "EXACTLY": (1) where they will strike, (2) when they will strike, (3) depth at which they will strike, and (4) the magnitude (to within less than one magnitude of what will occur currently, later it will be to within 2 tenths of a magnitude or less on most earthquakes). If you don't think this is correct, then you had better see my scientific facts videos on earthquakes numbered in sequence 1-22 on YouTube, showing my personal knowledge that has taken place over 3 decades of detecting earthquakes piezoseismically before, during and after they have struck; including 2 manmade or man-assisted earthquakes of 6.8 in magnitude.

You can either go to YouTube and type in "NewMexicoGeologist" and see my videos explaining how and why it is all possible or you can click here and see them:

www.youtube.com...

I'm very sure the Mayans knew how to scientifically predict occurences in the cosmos and on Earth.

[edit on 23-12-2009 by RussianScientists]

here is the terra papers::

LINK 1 - terra papers

LINK 2 - terra papers


i would say its a must read

Yeah I totally agree with you. You make very logical assessments. The universe is indeed extremely violent. You worded it perfectly in fact.

However, I think the problem many so called disbelievers have is not the possibility of the Earth being destroyed etc...... It is the fact that a calendar or Mayan natives or anything predicts it. No one can deny that eventually the Earth will get demolished. To say otherwise defies logic in fact. But to get wrapped up in so much of the hype surrounding a Mayan Calendar "OOOH, they're so mysterious" and misinterpret it is silly. Ill guarantee that 99 percent of the members here cannot look through the Dresden codex and understand the glyphs and whatnot. So why believe gloom and doom prophecy because of so called galactic alignments and what some Chalambalam guy said? If we are basing this argument on science then we must adhere to it. Chalambalam or salami is not science. Why is a Mayan elder more credible than a Sioux elder or a Shinnecock elder? When we look at these things subjectively they have no scientific backing at all. A ball game that has 3 different interpretations at the end of the day may just be a game. The dark rift at the end of the day may be named so because looking up it looks dark (The center Milky Way band). Nowhere within the calendar does it say that we will aligned with the galaxy's central plane in 2012. It's all interpretation and it has become like xmas, Valentines day and every other corprate venture. It preys on ppls misinterpretation to make some good ole cabbage.

reply to post by RussianScientists


ooops

[edit on 25-12-2009 by spinalremain]

I get a new calendar every year. Every year it ends on Dec 31st. The world has refused to end, year after year totally in spite of the calendar ending. I am starting to think there might be other reasons that calendars end aside from the end of the world. I could be wrong I guess but it seems to me that it would be far more disturbing if we found a calendar that was infinite.

reply to post by spinalremain


You need to watch the video(s) in the first link [Timeline 2012] - you seem to be hung up on the Mayan calendar.

Ivan Stein spends oodles of time on scientific evidence supporting his conclusions - maybe 30 seconds total, mentioning the Mayan calendar.