An American Soldiers Perspective, My Perspective

reply to post by ThePeoplesSoldier


No American soldiers have even remotely come close to dying for American freedoms since arguably WW 2, arguably before that if you buy into WW2 conspiracies as evidenced by things like the McCollum Memo. If you haven't noticed, we have less freedoms now than we did before soldiers started dying for empire building in Iraq.

If you disagree, please go ahead and explain how Korea, Vietnam, and other countries most Americans can't find on a map were going to take away our freedoms.. You know, countries that couldn't even have attacked us and made a real act of war if they wanted because they were that weak.

Read the last four paragraphs of the lyrics to 'universal soldier' to see what many people think about our military now (and know that I probably would have volunteered if we weren't doing things like invading and pillaging defenseless 3rd world countries and torturing people):

And he's fighting for Canada,
He's fighting for France,
He's fighting for the USA,
And he's fighting for the Russians,
And he's fighting for Japan,
And he thinks we'll put an end to war this way.

And he's fighting for Democracy,
He's fighting for the Reds,
He says it's for the peace of all.
He's the one who must decide,
Who's to live and who's to die,
And he never sees the writing on the wall.

But without him,
How would Hitler have condemned him at Dachau?
Without him Caesar would have stood alone,
He's the one who gives his body
As a weapon of the war,
And without him all this killing can't go on.

He's the Universal Soldier and he really is to blame,
His orders come from far away no more,
They come from here and there and you and me,
And brothers can't you see,
This is not the way we put the end to war.

Originally posted by Mindmelding
reply to post by ThePeoplesSoldier

 

Don't give me the "you've got choices because someone died" croc. That's a fairytale you got fed so you'd feel noble about what you do. It's a complete and utter lie. Nobody died for me to be free, I am free in principle, in my mind. I don't need an army to protect me from another army, when two armies collide you don't have the protection of freedom, we just have a human tragedy and loss of life as young impressionable males piss their lives away for a flag, banner or a wage. It's not the defense of freedom, it's the exploitation of man, underlined in blood red. Men who let their hormones overtake their minds.

Get this through your head: Men fight because they want to, not because they have to. There is always a way out, it's a complex universe, but so many are scared of the unknown to a point where they would rather accept a reality that is bad.

War was never noble. And it was never necessary. It has always been the creation of psychopaths, who lie and manipulate the gullible until they find themselves mind-controlled into a position where they think that they have to fight.

Maybe sometime in the hard times ahead you'll find yourself bashing some peaceful disobedient, and at that point, where you realize you're the one in the wrong, you're the one manifesting evil, you may learn something about yourself.

It's all about choices.

wow. 10 stars.

Good to see sane minds on these types of threads.





[edit on 8-12-2009 by vermonster]

reply to post by VonDoomen


Group actions come down to the decisions of individuals who make up the group. Even though the troops are ordered by higher-ups, they're just as responsible as the higher-ups. Without all the troops making the individual decision to go to fight in conflicts (these aren't wars, they were never declared), all the orders from the higher-ups would be are words on paper.

A verse from the song I mentioned above specifically deals with this:

But without him,
How would Hitler have condemned him at Dachau?
Without him Caesar would have stood alone,
He's the one who gives his body
As a weapon of the war,
And without him all this killing can't go on.

Without the universal soldier, after all, Caesar really would have stood alone. And so would have Bush, Nixon, Obama, JFK, Lincoln, Hitler, and everyone else who has waged war (on paper that is, the soldiers are really the ones waging war) on people who never threatened their freedoms.

Oh and FYI, I don't even really believe a lot of the things I post here, especially things having to do with views on politics and related matters. I just post a lot of things for the sake of argument because arguing from someone else's perspective makes me understand their perspective better than arguing against them. That really just helps me out more because I don't post about things to change peoples' minds. I do it to learn things.

But please do try to debate my points because I really am curious.

[edit on 12/8/09 by RedDragon]

reply to post by OmegaLogos



SO AT 15 YOU WERE ATTEMPTING HOMICIDE ON YOUR MOTHER BECAUSE SHE LIED TO YOU.

A REAL MANS MAN.

YOUR OPINION JUST SETTLED DEEPER THAN BLUE WHALE EFFLUVENCE.

edit: useless post; I'd delete it if I could but ATS doesn't give me the option.

[edit on 12/8/09 by RedDragon]

Articles of Freedom of Continental Congress 2009 THIS IS MY PLEDGE: Through the Creator as our witness, we hereby pledge our signatures to this end, in order to hold our elected and appointed officials accountable for all of their violations, with a reminder to our public officials that they have sworn an Oath (or Affirmation), to Preserve, Protect and Defend the Constitution for the United States of America. We the undersigned renounce and condemn INITIATION of force and will pursue all lawful and Constitutional means to fulfill our duty. I place my name as an Eternal Record of the Will Of The People to be Free.

U.S. Soldiers, time to defend the constitution, not the private sectors interests.

Continental Congress 2009

Originally posted by rusethorcain

Originally posted by ThePeoplesSoldier

I think your peace loving hippie ass would have a slightly different perspective on what REALITY is.

The next time you see a soldier, your not required to shake his hand. You’re not required to thank him or even acknowledge him. We don’t ask for it and for most of us don’t even care for it. But please, what ever you do, don’t spit on him. You don’t know where he’s been or what he’s had to endure.


www.icasualties.org
(visit the link for the full news article)

My peace loving hippy ass thanks you from the bottom of my heart for your service and your post. Bless you friend. I know you will agree, Peace is not so bad when we can get it.

Here Here! As does my hippie ass! And let me add, it's a cruel, heartless, soulless bastard who spits on our soldiers. We don't protest you guys - we love you. We protest those individuals - whoever they may be - who do give direct orders to cause noncollateral harm. We protest the idea, neive as you think it may be, that true change can only come about via military might. We protest those individuals who, through their own need for power, fail the human race by causing us to live their power drama.

reply to post by vermonster


To be fair, while a huge part of the the reasons for war are for corporate and individual profit, a lot of it is also about imperialistic control over other country's natural resources. Read through the project for the new american century and you'll see they basically mention taking control of the entire gulf (this is my understanding) to control the oil so that America can dominate the 21st century as the name of the thinktank suggests.

I'd be down for that too since it makes me better off in 10 years but I can't live with having to to tell the mother of a dead child killed by my military, a widow, a wifeless husband, etc. that I, as an American citizen, paid to have their families killed so that I could drive an SUV and have a big LCD screen in 10 years when oil is more scarce. Thus, I actually am anti-war.

Though, I'm anti-war through thought only just as nearly every other anti-war American citizen is since we continue to voluntarily fund the military every year we file taxes. >50% of the American people are now anti-war but nearly 100% are pro-war through their actions (I'm sure there are some Americans pulling a Ralph Emerson out there). Ironically, pretty much the only people who aren't huge gaping hypocrites are the psychopaths who would be able to live with telling the mother of a..


[edit on 12/8/09 by RedDragon]

[edit on 12/8/09 by RedDragon]

reply to post by WickedStar


For argument's sake, is a Mafia hit-man responsible for murder? After all, he's really just following orders from higher-ups in the Mafia.. And if he refuses, he will be executed by the Mafia. Same with the concentration camp executioners which we executed for following orders, right?

Our criminal justice system has no problem imprisoning hit-men and we had no problem executing concentration camp employees and related soldiers.

The idea that soldiers aren't responsible for their individual actions is a very collectivist mentality that goes against the principles of individuality, and by corollary against the principles of freedom. I hate to use the word irony a lot, but that's what many soldiers claim to be defending.

All higher-ups did was look into a TV camera and talk about the conflicts or write words about the conflicts on paper. None of them are actually toting guns.

The families of the people we've killed probably consider writing words on a piece of paper with a pencil less of a travesty than dismembering their family members with guns and bombs. Although, I could be completely wrong here, maybe pencils wage more wars than guns and bombs. Yeah, nations can be invaded with pencils, right?

If a soldier invades a country that hasn't threatened our freedoms then isn't he really a bad person if you judge his individual actions?

Sake of argument here, not necessarily my beliefs.



[edit on 12/8/09 by RedDragon]

reply to post by ThePeoplesSoldier


I am a former SGT/E-5 of the US Army. I served 4 years and finished my enlistment last August. I am an OEF (Afghanistan) veteran and for my protection I will not be stating what my job (MOS) was. When I served in Afghanistan, I was on a small FOB in Ghazni province that was very dangerous and very very very small (1 platoon/50 joes) no females, no showers, no MKT, and NO WORKING HEATERS. I have seen the ugly side (shooting/killing) and the pretty side (humanitarian missions) of the war. Firstly, I would like to say to ThePeoplesSoldier thank you for serving my fellow brother BUT...now...let me fill you in on some real super TOP SECRET/SCI info...this war is complete bull#!!! I would LOVE to argue that point with you buddy. I know that some Afghans and Iraqis say that they want us there but the truth is that some of them are afraid to say otherwise in fear of being labeled a possible threat and whether they want us there or not the fact that we are there is creating more enemies for Americans because the people assigning missions and objectives are not people with agendas that promote peace. BTW, I know this because I talked to them first hand in Dari/Farsi so communication was more clear and little or none was lost in translation. Also, the people spoke to me a lot differently since I'm of middle eastern decent and I told them I was a Muslim (which I am actually not). The purpose of this war was is NOT to be the world police as it was comically portrayed in the film Team America but rather to defeat a threat that we are perpetually creating. If the US agenda was as honorable (Army value...pshhh...kiss my f **cking ass) as they claim, we would be doing a lot more humanitarian missions. The reason that more taliban keep popping up is because men are offered money, food, and shelter for their families if they commit to a martyr mission and they do it because they love their families just as you love yours and they want them to survive. ThePeoplesSoldier likes to bring up that they want us there and hug him n sh*t to make himself sound like a hero but I'm ALMOST positive he did little or nothing for those people and anything he did do was because he was sent out on a humanitarian mission. I gave $500 (that's cash money that I earned in the war zone) in total to about 20 different Afghans. The tax money that americans are paying for IS going into the pockets of the big heads that own the military industrial complex and US/UK construction/energy firms to build weapons and military facilities instead of food, shelter, school supplies, medical equipment, etc. It SHOULD be going to feed the poor and unfortunate in these countries. Another big factor of being successful in this war that is NOT happening is educating the people and especially the children of Afghanistan and Iraq. Most of the people in these countries don't know how to read and the only thing they are taught is misleading/inaccurate Muslim beliefs that lead them to use violence in the name of Islam. Educated people GENERALLY are more conscious of decisions they make and I think everyone agrees with that statement. ThePeoplesSoldier claims he hates war but now that he is more aware of the true intentions of this war if he decides to reenlist (which he probably will from the looks of it) then we should ALL shun him. He has all the benefits he needs to survive and there is no repercussions if he decides to leave the military for good. TRUST ME I KNOW!!! I was put in a situation of kill or be killed and I chose to shoot but NOT to kill as ThePeoplesSoldier probably did. I decided to shoot the person below the knees. To this day I have not killed any human being and that is something I am very proud to say. This thread to me seemed like an ego boost ThePeoplesSoldier needed to make himself feel better about himself and the war he participated in.

reply to post by Fatnut


I can't even believe I saw this pro-war article on ATS. Lastly, I would like to state that the bottom line is that winning this war is IMPOSSIBLE, we can't afford to continue this war, it's causing too many deaths, and fighting/killing/torturing to promote peace is a straight up stupid ideology. Bring everyone home and let's use the defense budget to feed the mouths of starving children not to put 7.76mm rounds in your M16/A2.

Quote by ThePeoplesSoldier: "We do what we do for the man to the left and the man to the right."
Reality: "You do what you do to give the military industrial complex a reason to make more weapons and to provide more assets to companies like KBR (they're the ones that served you chow buddy)."

also see my previous post


reply to post by vermonster


Ok, first STOP changing the topic of this thread. If you have an issue start a new dang thread. Second, every one in the ARMED FORCES is not a mindless frag'ed drone that only obey orders, as HOLLYWOOD would have the freaking sheeple beleive.

Got it?

Not all people, in the military are "combat trained", and most 99% of the people, who serve in a branch of the "armed forces" probably hasn't so much as seen let alone fired a weapon out side the qualification.

Very few people, there is that word again, close to 1% of the military are regulary trained in combat techniques. Meaning, only the combat arms MOSs and ones that directly support them, are involved in any direct interaction in a combat zone.

The majority of people in the military are support personel, like supply clerks, fuelers, laundry services or cooks. Radio/commo and even paper pushers, not trigger pulling mindless unlawful order following machines.

Hollywood man, see the freaking forest for the damn trees would you, and the rest of those who obviously do not see the damn thing.

People in the armed forces are your uncles, fathers, brothers, sons and daughters, wives, gf and sisters. WE are your neighbors, the guy who stopped along side the highway to give you a ride or jumpstart and even fuel.

We are the people, just as much as any other American citizen is.

Difference and sad truth though, we are not manipulated by fear and paranoia that we are out to get you. In fact it is the oppsite...stop hateing.

I personally swore an oath, as did every one else who enlisted or took a government seat of any office. Even after my Honorable discharge, that oath still applies. How else could they be able to call back prior service.

Think about the situation, the people. One bad apple don't spoil the whole bushel, but your making it out as though it does.

Not every one, who swore the oath, is an oathbreaker.

United We Stand, The Rest Is, Not An Option!

Let it be known, those who knew, tried...

[edit on 8-12-2009 by ADVISOR]

reply to post by ThePeoplesSoldier


weather you want it or not, Thanks for serving. Congratulations on the young one. The military will give you the tools to make it in life where others may fail. You have learned how to learn. Good luck with whatever the future brings.

I have to say, I am torn on this whole thing. I think that I (or even WE) don't really know what is going on over there.
You wrote in your op that gangs were killing and raping women in their houses. and I can believe that.
we as a nation can not sit back, with all that we have, and let that go on.

But,

we also can not be the ones killing people in their own houses.

I assume that when you were going to do your laundry, and that truck pulled up and exploded, you were carrying an m-16, or an m-60, or some grenades, or rockets, or tear gas, or some other WEAPON.
newsflash soldier, If you rolled up on me with all that tank artillary, I would try to blow you away too.

my point is, you weren't carrying a drill, or a saw, or some two by fours, or some plywood, or concrete, or any other thing in order to help these people REBUILD their country. Were you?

actually, I don't know, maybe you were. like I said, I don't know.

but I ask you, what CAN we do? can we just surrender, pack our # and go home. then watch those guys party like rock-stars.

personally, I like that option.

SQUASH IT. LIVE AND LET LIVE.

Originally posted by vermonster
reply to post by ThePeoplesSoldier

 

boo hoo, i don't buy it.

You helped invade a sovereign nation, overthrew the existing government and set up a puppet dictatorship.

Meanwhile, your fellow citizen's civil libertys have been whittled away.

1st AMENDMENT FREEDOM OF SPEECH
• The Patriot Act broadly expands the official definition of
terrorism, so that many domestic groups that engage in
nonviolent civil disobedience could very well find themselves
labeled as terrorists.
• The Government may now prosecute librarians or keepers
of any other records if they reveal that the government
requested information on their clients or members in the
course of an investigation. It has become a crime for these
individuals to try to safeguard your privacy or to tell you
that you are under investigation.
1st AMENDMENT FREEDOM OF ASSOCIATION
• Government agents may now monitor the First Amendmentprotected
activities of religious and political institutions, and
then infiltrate these groups with no suspicion of criminal
activity. This is a return to domestic spying on law-abiding
religious and political groups.
• You may now be the subject of a government investigation
simply because of the political, activist, or advocacy
groups you are involved in, or the statements you make
within these groups.
1st AMENDMENT RIGHT TO ACCESS
GOVERNMENT INFORMATION
• A U.S. Department of Justice directive actively encourages
federal, state, and local officials to resist and/or limit access
to government records through Freedom of Information Act
(FOIA) requests.
• The Government has conducted immigration hearings in
secret behind closed doors. Such proceedings were once
open to the public. Hundreds, if not thousands, of immigrants
have already been deported in secret.
4th AMENDMENT FREEDOM FROM UNREASONABLE
SEARCHES &SEIZURES
• Law Enforcement authorities may now conduct secret searches and wiretaps in your home or office
without showing “probable cause.” They need only to claim that intelligence gathering is “a significant
purpose” of their intrusion, even when the primary goal is ordinary law enforcement. They may also
monitor where and to whom you send and receive e-mail, or where you go on the Internet, recording
every e-mail address and website you have been in contact with.
• Law Enforcement may now demand any personal records held by any source including your doctor,
employer, accountant, or library. All they have to do is claim that it is related to an investigation into
“terrorism.” The record keepers may not reveal that your records were provided to the government.
• Judicial oversight of secret searches has been effectively minimized. The Patriot Act directs judges to
consent to secret searches based only on the Government’s assertion that a “significant” purpose of
an investigation is gathering information related to “terrorism,” as the government defines it.
5th AMENDMENT RIGHT TO DUE PROCESS & FREEDOM FROM BEING
HELD WITHOUT CHARGE
• Americans can now be jailed without a formal charge & without the right to confront the witnesses or
evidence against them. American citizens are now being held in military jails without charge and without
a clear path of appeal for their indefinite confinement.
• Hundreds of Arab, Muslim and South Asian men were rounded up in the Ashcroft raids following
September 11, and held for weeks without charges until all were cleared of terrorism charges
6th AMENDMENT RIGHT TO LEGAL REPRESENTATION
• Hundreds of U.S. residents have been detained for months at a time, and denied access to the advice
and advocacy of an attorney. The Government may now monitor conversations between attorneys &
clients in federal jails.
• The Bush Administration filed papers in court that arguing that an American citizen held in a military
jail without charge should be denied access to legal counsel because such access would interfere with
the process of his interrogation.
6th AMENDMENT RIGHT TO A SPEEDY AND PUBLIC TRIAL
• The U.S. Government may now jail its residents and citizens indefinitely without charge & without a public trial.
8th AMENDMENT FREEDOM FROM CRUEL AND UNUSUAL PUNISHMENTS
• The U.S. Government has taken into custody individuals they identify as “material witnesses,” transported
them across the country, and held them for months in solitary confinement without charge or
contact with their family.
• According to the Justice Department’s own Inspector General, immigrant men rounded up in the
Ashcroft raids following September 11 and held in the Metropolitan Detention Center in Brooklyn, NY
were subjected to a pattern of “physical and verbal abuse.”
14th AMENDMENT RIGHT TO EQUAL PROTECTION
• Over 82,000 men from Arab, Muslim and South Asian countries registered with the Government
under the Special Registration program. Over 13,000 are now in deportation proceedings. None
have been charged with terrorism.

I could not have said it better myself....

Bravo, bravo...*star* for you vermonster..

I am doing what I am doing, because I am ordered to and also WELL PAID. If they tell me to kill, I'll kill. It does not bother me that I believe in God and He Himself had told that I shell not Kill. I can not see the problem in following the orders because, that means I am not responsible for what I have done. God knows that and will forgive me all the pain and suffering I have caused by following orders.

God bless you, as long as it does not contradict orders I am given.

=======

P.S. I am not a bio-robot as some of you might think - I know I am committing the crime and I know that killing and hurting another being is bad. In my hart I am pure and I will go to heaven straight after my death.

I am off to pray to God and then I'll follow the orders again.

What is the reason why you went to war with Iraq?

The first reason they gave was that Saddam have ties with Al-qaida, when they found no connection, They said, oh they have WMD, found no WMD, oh we need to liberate the Iraqi people.

To liberate them? People are dying Myanmar/Burma but the US found no reason to intervene. There are other countries that need "liberation" but why choose Iraq?

Anybody who believe that the US went to war with Iraq for a noble purpose is being naive, we all know that its about oil.

And you sir is being used in the big oil corporation's personal agenda. What is sad is you didn't even know about it. Where is Bin Laden by the way? Is there any justice to the people who died in 9/11? No, there's no justice because the people who were supposed to defend the US citizens are busy serving the oil industry's agenda in the middle east.

If you think the people who are against the war is against the American soldiers, you are wrong. We are against those people who are using you. If our soldiers are to die in a battle, let it be for a noble purpose and not the agenda of these corporations.

I repeat, We are not against you, We are against those who sent you there.

reply to post by FIFIGI


You see this is a perfect example of the first quote in my foremost post in this thread;

King Jr., Martin Luther
"Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity."


LAWFUL ORDERS!!!

Now go smoke yourself...

reply to post by ThePeoplesSoldier


What we have here is a classic Catch 22. There has been many responses to your thread by those that hate all you stand for and those that do not. The ones that hate the military there is no pleasing. For instance if country X, which we currently have no forces in, breaks out in a bloody civil war (lets say we are on good terms with the ruling government there) and we decide to send in troops to aid...we are ba$tard$. Same situation and we decide to not send in aid...we are still ba$tard$. So regardless of what we do we are rotten S.O.B.s for being in the military. Learn to live with it as I have Sgt! Way I see it I have been called alot worse by alot better, if you get my drift.



[edit on 8-12-2009 by ch1ldofthe70s]

Originally posted by FIFIGI
I am doing what I am doing, because I am ordered to and also WELL PAID. If they tell me to kill, I'll kill. It does not bother me that I believe in God and He Himself had told that I shell not Kill. I can not see the problem in following the orders because, that means I am not responsible for what I have done. God knows that and will forgive me all the pain and suffering I have caused by following orders.

God bless you, as long as it does not contradict orders I am given.

=======

P.S. I am not a bio-robot as some of you might think - I know I am committing the crime and I know that killing and hurting another being is bad. In my hart I am pure and I will go to heaven straight after my death.

I am off to pray to God and then I'll follow the orders again.

And that is the same troops that you deploy to places like Iraq and Afghanistan. Orders are orders, and I commend you for that.

That is why I believe if you were ordered to shoot your own people, you would. If your commander said shoot those Anarchists, you would. That is why all the liberty and freedom is fading away, because of corrupt orders.