To those who have served ... you're not all heroes

Originally posted by Icerider
reply to post by LadySkadi

 

True, but if they are working to aid the military, it isnt quite the same, is it? The military is hardly ordinary people going about their 'normal' business, unless you consider a state of war normal.

Any role within the military is basically aiding the war effort, and unless that war is justified its difficult to see how any positive values can be attached to it.

SNIP

I think it's exactly the same... Firefighters, Paramedics, Doctors, Nurses... it doesn't matter where they are working, they are all doing the same job. Saving lives. Many of the people that are working in these critical professions (I would add Police, Counselors to the list) get that experience in the military (regular or Reserve service) and if they are Reserves, they are simultaneously working both sectors.

I just think it's bad form and misleading to paint every man, woman in the military as someone who is fighting an unjust war and/or under some sort of Patriotic delusion. It's not the case.


[edit on 12-11-2009 by LadySkadi]

You know what....although many troops today would say that do have higher regards for vietnam veterans and the like, go ask a vietnam veteran what he thinks. I guarantee he'll say he has as much respect for the men and women of todays armed forces as we do for those that served prior to us.

Most of us joined to have a job, send some money home, and serve our country...while trusting in the integrity of our government.

All had an equal opportunity to kill or be killed. Some got lucky, some didn't. That's life.

Like the native Americans say,...walk a mile in my shoes...

My family has fought in every war since 1620. We're just trying to keep this thing we call freedom.

If you don't want it, let me know.

Valley Forge. New Orleans. The Alamo. Gettysburg. Flanders. Pearl Harbor. Normandy. Iwo Jima. Korea. Viet Nam. Iraq. Afghanistan. The OP just pissed on the graves of each and every one of the brave ... and yes, I'll use the term ... HEROES ... who fought and/or died for the very right he used to express his vile opinion. Sleep well tonight knowing your cowardly butt will be safe from harm because of those you choose to dishonor.

OK well I haven't read every single post in this topic but from what I have read, no one is giving the opening post the light of day. You want to speak of ignorance, those who simply ignore what was said labeling it as "cowardice" and "disrespect", THAT is the true pinnacle of ignorance.

The fact of the matter is this. Wars of the past were fought to protect us, the people. Brave soldiers were forced to do what had to be done in order to protect our country and provide for the betterment of the world. These men, to me, are heroes. They risked their lives and many even lost theirs to ensure that we would have our freedoms and that tyranny would not conquer the world.

Fast forward to today. You no longer have people devoted to defending our country and doing what is right. You have a bunch of fresh out of high school kids looking for easy money, looking for a way to pay for college. You have a war that is fought where the meaning has dissolved into nothingness, where we question if there ever was a meaning. The military today has become a web of complexes, hell bent on trapping those who join and using deceit and lies in order to keep them there.

Defending our freedom? By joining the military today you aren't defending our freedom. You are simply promoting the judgment of a now tyrannical, empirical government that has taken over - the same government that the real "heroes" defended against so many years ago.



Today, it is purely voluntary. To volunteer to join the military today and actually believe that you are in some way "defending" this country from anything, you are sorely mistaken. You are simply helping to promote the downfall in my eyes.



So yes, I do show my respect for veterans. Anyone who has suited up and put life and limb on the line to protect us and our freedoms, they truly are heroes. But today that meaning has been lost. War is no longer fought for meaningful reasons and defense, it is fought over money and the corporate machine. There are no heroes born from that.




Deny ignorance.

[edit on 12-11-2009 by gwydionblack]

Wow. Ten pages of responses.

I couldn't have cared less had the thread bombed after post 1. I needed to post my thoughts somewhere, given that GradyPhilpott's thread was deemed out of bounds.

As to not posting sufficiently speedily for some of you, that's merely down to timezone differences unfortunately. Nor have I sufficient time this morning to reply to each one of the brickbats slung in my direction (but I'll have a damned good attempt tonight).

So in the intervening period you can dwell on the words of a real hero.

I think some of you need consider President Eisenhower's speech on leaving office and look at your own reasons for wagging the dog, because really that's all some of you are doing.

Until the latest of our world conflicts, the United States had no armaments industry. American makers of plowshares could, with time and as required, make swords as well. But now we can no longer risk emergency improvisation of national defense; we have been compelled to create a permanent armaments industry of vast proportions. Added to this, three and a half million men and women are directly engaged in the defense establishment. We annually spend on military security more than the net income of all United States corporations. This conjunction of an immense military establishment and a large arms industry is new in the American experience. The total influence -- economic, political, even spiritual -- is felt in every city, every State house, every office of the Federal government. We recognize the imperative need for this development. Yet we must not fail to comprehend its grave implications. Our toil, resources and livelihood are all involved; so is the very structure of our society. In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the militaryindustrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist. We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together.

And I'll be back after work to look at the whole thread rather than merely the last 3 pages.

reply to post by gwydionblack


Not necessarily true. Ever hear of a draft? I don't think the draft creats heroes. I think volunteering does. If I lay my life down on the line because someone says that I have to, I'm just being obedient. If I lay it down because I WANT to, I'm being a hero.

Like I said on my previous post, the men and women of the armed service of today respect the vets of yesteryear. And the vets of yesteryear respect the men and women of the armed forces today equally. There is no distuingishing factor. A hero is someone that is respected and admired for the courageous acts they make and I believe anyone with enough courage and drive to stand up and risk their own life for a country as F'd up as this one should be admired.

The veterans of this country stood up to do what they thought was right because they love there country as well as their freedom and everyone else freedoms as well. Nobody does this to try and be a hero or just to kill someone.

I joined to be around professional mature adults so that I could learn from them and be a profession mature adult no matter what kind of situation I am in as well as do what I could to protect the freedoms that we have.

I don't care about the money because it isn't much, just needed some guidance as well as more maturity at the time. It's just not right to disrespect the soldiers as they can't help they enlist to do the right thing, and sometimes you get orders that don't seem like it's right.

Soldier do what they are told and do it professionally. Just think about how this country would be like right now if a few brave colonial American's such as the Minute Men and other soldiers, stand up for this country at the time that they did. We could all be French or British right now.

Just think of what America could have been like after WW1 or WW2 if we would have just sat around and let the Germans conquer all of Europe and gathered up a bigger Army and decided they wanted to come to America next.

Why don't you just think about how many freedoms you have right now? You have the freedom to post this. If you were in Iraq at the time of Saddam and posted this, if you even had a computer you would probably have had your hand cut off, or even worse beheaded.

You should also be thankful your not a starving African child right now who sure would love to be able to get on a computer and post something such as yourself. They need a computer more than myself or you. They could be reaching out to someone right now. So you do not have it bad.

Or you could be sitting in Korea right now with me.....

reply to post by Ulala


Your right.

Not every one who served in the Armed Forces is a hero. They are Personel Otherthan Grunts ("POGs" pronounced POUGE not pawg) and support personel. Rear echelon mofos, paper pushers, suppliy clerks, fuelers, and truck drivers ect, who are not combat arms. They are volunteers, who chose to do something that not every one else does.

I don't know how people who never have been in the military and sit there and talk about stuff they have no clue about.

But until you or any one else, grabs your balls and mans up enough to swear an oath to god and country, that you will vow to always "support and defend, the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic", I don;t believe you have room to f'n talk.

Yes you have a right to your opinion and to voice it. But if it wasnt for the men and woman who served in the military, you wouldnt have that "liberty".

So next time one of you who never has served wants to speak your mind, please feel free, I insist. But don't cry when some one who has, stands up and speaks theirs.

Because this might be the land of the free, but God damn it it's the HOME of the BRAVE!

The men, who are real military heros.
They died, fighting in combat and fought for the freedoms and liberties that TOO MANY take for GRANTED these days.

The members of the worlds Armed Forces, who died fighting for a complete strangers freedoms and or rights, are the REAL HEROS.

They are the ones people need to thank. Thank the families for their son, brother or father that is the real hero, who died.

Remember, not to take for granted, the things we have that others do not.
It is ignorant...

reply to post by Ulala


i hate to break it to you but WW2 WWI and all the other "honorable wars" that the US has taken part in were all engineered and coerced into existence. The cold war? another fabricated joke...

of course you would need to read books in order to discover the corruption which most are quite happy not to do

so at the end of the day... soldiers then, soldiers now...all still tools being used by the same people that made you think that we've actually fought honorable wars...

haha, that was a good one though, ill chuckle for a few more minutes..

ps. keep up that division of the masses indoctrination...it's working out fantastically, we are all pleased..

[edit on 12-11-2009 by injunfeller]

Originally posted by ADVISOR
reply to post by Ulala

 

Your right.

Not every one who served in the Armed Forces is a hero. They are Personel Otherthan Grunts ("POGs" pronounced POUGE not pawg) and support personel. Rear echelon mofos, paper pushers, suppliy clerks, fuelers, and truck drivers ect, who are not combat arms. They are volunteers, who chose to do something that not every one else does.

I don't know how people who never have been in the military and sit there and talk about stuff they have no clue about.

But until you or any one else, grabs your balls and mans up enough to swear an oath to god and country, that you will vow to always "support and defend, the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic", I don;t believe you have room to f'n talk.

Yes you have a right to your opinion and to voice it. But if it wasnt for the men and woman who served in the military, you wouldnt have that "liberty".

So next time one of you who never has served wants to speak your mind, please feel free, I insist. But don't cry when some one who has, stands up and speaks theirs.

Because this might be the land of the free, but God damn it it's the HOME of the BRAVE!

The men, who are real military heros.
They died, fighting in combat and fought for the freedoms and liberties that TOO MANY take for GRANTED these days.

The members of the worlds Armed Forces, who died fighting for a complete strangers freedoms and or rights, are the REAL HEROS.

They are the ones people need to thank. Thank the families for their son, brother or father that is the real hero, who died.

Remember, not to take for granted, the things we have that others do not.
It is ignorant...

Outstanding!

Thank you

I know that my uncles who fought in vietnam never thought of themselves as heros. They came home and was treated badly, and they have carried a pain on their hearts clear into their old age.

My grandparents have told me about how both left and came back different people. Very sad, very beaten down for years. One of my uncles fought with alcoholism and the other has fought with living a normal happy family life. Whenever we get together for family dinners, I can see that pain on them that they carry. Even when they smile. When I was a little girl one of them lost it at a dinner and broke down crying he didn't feel he deserved to be happy.

Maybe in my heart they are heros. They came through an unjust war, they survived it, and they fight with that every day of their life. It doesn't go away.

A perfect day to say this.

Killing machines or corporate biorobots. I can not call a being with arms a human.

Eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind.


Cheers.

Have a great weekend.

The best soldiers in the world is the grunt,the infantry.Thoses type of soldiers are deployed into the most dangerious areas.Carrying heaps of equipment up hills and though hard terrain.They run miles and they are the backbone of the army.They do most of the hard slog and they should be respected for that.Of course there are other soldiers who are cooks,engineers,tank drivers or medics.The infantry is always there on the front line in the line of fire protecting there country on all fronts.I was in the infantry once when i was 19.With equipment weighting 30 kg and a m60 machine gun i run up and down 12 hills in one day in training execises covering a distance of 18 kilometers.I am now 47 and i would still do the same to day.I might be a bit slower than when i was 19 but i would still get the job done.

[edit on 12-11-2009 by GORGANTHIUM]

Excellent thread!

It is amazing to me how people get easily indoctrinated by fear to fight wars that are created artificially just to indulge a few persons' lust for power and money (today, war is the most profitable industry).

If those few greedy people (it doesn't matter on what side, what country, what color or ethnicity you may be speaking about) could not get so many naive 'volunteers' the world would be a much better place.

Like I said on the other thread, if so many people didn't joined Hitler's army could he have done so much with his bloody 'adventure'? NOPE!

I can understand that people in past lacked education, and IQ levels were lower in general (so they could be frightened into war very easily), but today, when basic education is available, when information is instant, people still get easily manipulated into wars (on all sides), especially now when some unknown information is also available (thanks to ATS and other forums) that shows wars are nothing more than a rich peoples' playgrounds.

We are still living in The Dark Ages

(you can attack me now if you wish )





[edit on 12-11-2009 by donhuangenaro]

reply to post by Ulala


Your OPINION is a bag of CRAP !

I served during the COLD WAR and I am a USAF Veteran. The job and duty were just as important as those who are in Afghanistan today hunting down Osama Bin Laden and his gang of world wide terrorists.

Those of us who have stood watch while the rest of you whinning, sniffling, cowards and wussies refused to serve your country. This obligation was born out of the fight for FREEDOM that our forefathers experienced in the 1770's to make this country free of British rule.

We have the same fight going on today. Its a different time, but the fight is the same. We Believe that ALL PEOPLE should be FREE from the TYRANNY of others.

So the next time you write such a bag of crap about who and who is not a HERO, just remember this ... IF it weren't for those of us who have indeed served to protect the RIGHTS you have, you might not have the ability to write your bag of crap opinion. Be thankful that WE who have SERVED did so without knowing your condemnation of your opinion.

We Kept the Peace in a time where NO PEACE could have been kept. Remember that !

It doesn't matter at this point in human history. We've come to a point where all we really know is violence and mutilation of our fellow humans. All we really know is that we have the ability to kill so if someone steps on my feet I'm going to blow them up. "You make me mad, I'll take what you value most, your life." It's not, "you make me mad, let's have tea and crumpets and talk it over".

In Gandhi's day, sure, it could work. We're past those days. We're past the days of reconciliation. We're past the days of nonviolent protest. Now it's war and if you don't have a mass of "indoctrinated" or "willing slaves" or "volunteers" or "heroes" or whatever you want to call them, you're not going to get very far.

There are too many differences that breed intoleration in the world for peace to become reality. War will always be a chess game and someone has to move the pieces. There are pawns, queens, and kings, and one individual to rule(move) them all.

[edit on 12-11-2009 by Agree2Disagree]

LoL most people here say that hardly any soldier to day looks upon him self as a hero. Well not even the hero's of ww2 see them selves as hero's. They to just say that they did their job and what was asked of them. Hero's are created by the people who dont fight. Hero's are created to boost moral.

Most people to day dont know the difference between ww2 and fighting this war on terror. They think its the same thing. But its not.

The Iraq war is based on a lie. If fighting a war based on lies makes people hero's. What makes these hero's different from the terrorists who fight wars based on religion?

The Afghan war is based on a very slim accusation. That Bin Laden was the stage setter for 911. If you ask me the Americans and NATO are fighting in Afghanistan based on a suspicion and not actual facts.

reply to post by spy66


Most people serving in these wars don't view them as a lie. They see their homeland get attacked and immediately feel the need to defend their way of life. They're fighting for what they believe to be truth. If you THOUGHT someone had, just for example, sexually harassed your mother, would you not be pissed?

I've known heroes. Most of them are dead now. Even dead, they STILL are more man than you and a couple of your buddies I see here all put together.

Lots of soldiers just did their jobs and came back home, only to face the disdain and ingratitude of cowardly slugs such as yourself. Most of them face it calmly. They can do so because they are secure in themselves, and secure in the knowledge that they, even they, are far more man than you and those like you all rolled into one.

I can't class myself with these National Service Soldiers. I was a lucky one. I got to pick my own wars, and turn down the ones I didn't believe in. These other men were not so lucky. They had to do the task handed to them, but by God, they went and did it anyhow. For that, they have my utmost respect, and I'm damn privileged that they let me hang out with them on their day.

Many of us volunteered to do a job, more than once, that you and those like you ran away from, crying and pissing yourself. It's not that you have an overabundance of social conscience, that's just what you hide your cowardice behind. Having a social conscience demands that one does the best one can for his fellows. You clearly failed that test.

No, we're not heroes, but at least we're men.

[edit on 2009/11/12 by nenothtu]