This is the United States of America, Not Europe

Originally posted by Ulala
His Euros keep you people in work. If it weren't for guys like him, employing ingrates of your ilk, the Florida economy would be looking less than rosy.

Well, I's thanks ya, Massa, fors keeping peoples like me properly working an' all! Nows I's just shuffle off and get back to picking that cotton, raight, Massa??

Jesus, Mary and Joseph. If it wasn't for the money your Dad and Cousin are spending here, I bet the US would be completely washed up, huh?

I guess that means the money I spend in Europe last year supported you, huh? You're welcome.

Originally posted by SLAYER69

It's a perfect opportunity to point out all the flaws in the US health care system then to state that they could careless.

And then brag about how much better it is in Europe. Funny, tho, they are working here? Guess that unemployment over there is a bit too much for them to take, huh?

reply to post by Dermo

The main reason this argument kicked off is because Americans who didn't want socialized healthcare started mocking us because we had it..

I dislike generalizations, too, but sometimes it's difficult to make a point without using them, huh?

Anyway, you have made some valid points about the possibility some of the immigrants are coming from some European countries with worse health care than we have. I'll look into that. Would have been better if you'd provided some actual numbers, though.

reply to post by jerico65


Stupidest. Comment. Ever.

Who is? Me? Im "European".

Last time I checked I was in the EU.. Fully employed.

Oh you mean the other 1/4000th that went to the US in 2008.. Yea, thats a lot.

NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Even more so when you look at immigration to the EU.

Originally posted by WTFover
reply to post by Dermo
Would have been better if you'd provided some actual numbers, though.

Don't have any, I was using common sense regarding emigration and an argument borne of a wider perspective than the op. I think Eustat would probably have some figures you could cross reference but Im not going to do it. Sorry


[edit on 8/11/09 by Dermo]

Originally posted by weemadmental
reply to post by WTFover

 

Europeans are moving to America, you will find that alot of the Europeans you are referring to are Dutch, French or similar nationality's that are African, Congolese that have just been given EU residency to get them the hell out of these countries.

The people of the UK are suffering due to these problems and a lot of theses now "legal" immigrants are moving to the US for a better life. you will find your country will become a lot healthier, Health care should not be a business, god help you when you get some nasty diseases and cant afford the medication to save your life, this is where the NHS comes into its own.

Universal free health care is a basic human right

Wee Mad Mental

If Health care is a basic human right then so should be food clothes and housing! When do i get my check from the government to pay my mortgage!!! And well winters coming i need a new coat and some more long sleeve shirts so when do i get my allowance for clothes. And i was thinking i need some money for dinner tonight was thinking of going to Logan's for a stake since should i remove this off my taxes?

Why is it people want to give control of there life to the government doesn't any one have any personal responsibility anymore.As humans we make choices some bad some good but to have the government make these choices is just scary. The government is not there to take care of you its there to make sure you have the ability to take care of yourself!

Originally posted by Dermo
Stupidest. Comment. Ever.

Ask me if I give a crap.

Originally posted by Dermo
Who is? Me? Im "European".

Last time I checked I was in the EU.. Fully employed.

Oh you mean the other 1/4000th that went to the US in 2008.. Yea, thats a lot.

NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Unless that is you, don't worry your pretty little head about it.

Shucks, I'm sorry. I must have struck a nerve.

Originally posted by jerico65
Ask me if I give a crap.

Do you give a crap?

Worst. Rhetorical Question. Ever.

Shucks, I'm sorry. I must have struck a nerve.

I didn't see a sad or angry smiley face in my post anywhere.. did you? You're internet emotion gauge is way off.

Im trying to point out that generalizing is the reason for most of these bull# arguments so why people continue to use ridiculous generalizations astounds me. Even reading ones after being written by someone thousands of miles away offends me and etches away another small part of my faith in humanity because it makes us seem so small minded and retarded.

Well done. Humanity 0 - Stupidity 1

Unless that is you, don't worry your pretty little head about it.

Are you coming onto me?

[edit on 8/11/09 by Dermo]

Originally posted by WTFover
reply to post by quackers

 

Okay? So there are twice as many immigrants to 23 countries as there are to the United States of America. Your point would be?

I never said we are "better" than anyone. We are, however, different and that difference is the reason many people come here.

[edit on 8-11-2009 by WTFover]

My point? It's your point, that you raised. Your very first post attempted to say that America was great, so great that 1.3 million Europeans "escaped" to the US for a better life. You implied "better" by your very own words and the context of your post.

What you basically said was

"we're better because a load of you choose to move here rather than stay in Europe".

Of course this whole thread is no more than a whining exercise. You feel hard done by because Europeans are watching your country being driven into the ground, all the while listening to so called "patriots" ranting on about that sheet of bog roll The Constitution. which apparently means nothing and doesn't even have anyone with a spine left to stand up for it. We point out the hypocrisies, and discuss them, and that really annoys some people. We're not directly involved, so we can say what we like without retribution, and perhaps more objective to boot.

Originally posted by Dermo
Blaa blaa blaa blaa blaa!

More generalizing.. Im pretty confident I threw a half decent argument in there.. Just a few posts up.. you should check it out. Absolutely no foreign policy mentioned AT ALL.

Defensive?
Who was talking about you?
Guilty conscious?


[edit on 8-11-2009 by SLAYER69]

Originally posted by Dermo
I didn't see a sad or angry smiley face in my post anywhere.. did you? You're internet emotion gauge is way off.

Nah, but my obnoxious dial is only up to "medium".

Originally posted by Dermo
Im trying to point out that generalizing is the reason for most of these bull# arguments so why people continue to use ridiculous generalizations astounds me. Even reading ones after being written by someone thousands of miles away offends me and etches away another small part of my faith in humanity because it makes us seem so small minded and retarded.

Unfortunately, that does seem to be the case here on ATS. And on both sides of the Atlantic.

Originally posted by Dermo
Well done. Humanity 0 - Stupidity 1

Yeah, I'll take that.

Originally posted by Dermo
Are you coming onto me?

[edit on 8/11/09 by Dermo]

Don't get your hopes up.

I think it is good to hear from people who like their nationalized health coverage because it shows that such a concept can be done right and result in satisfied customers. However, it should also be noted by those same people that the universal health care being proposed in the US is not the same as what other countries enjoy.

As far as immigration, I don't think that it necessarily says anything about our health care system. A better thread would be citing the number of people who come to the US simply to get medical treatment and the reasons behind it. I think that this would better demonstrate any problems with the health care systems of Canada and countries throughout Europe.

Originally posted by dragonridr
Why is it people want to give control of there life to the government doesn't any one have any personal responsibility anymore.As humans we make choices some bad some good but to have the government make these choices is just scary. The government is not there to take care of you its there to make sure you have the ability to take care of yourself!

Ok so.. Disband your police forces and fire all your teachers. Every amenity your governance bodies provide for you.. just ditch them and use blunt capitalism. Hire all your teachers, firemen & cops locally and let those who can't afford to pay go without these amenities.

Oh wait.. you cant. Because society evolves past that. Full blown capitalism collapsed in Europe several times over the past few hundred years because it needs a frontier to exploit.. we literally cannot go back to brute force capitalism, our system works extremely well for us overall and it seems that the US is moving into a similar situation... so maybe it is an evolutionary thing.

Im not one for big government at all, in fact, I hate the idea but I am a 100% supporter of a social safety net for the less fortunate that includes basic healthcare, education, welfare of some description and protection. IMO Healthcare and capitalism are two things that should not mix because in the overall spectrum, they cannot function together.

But thats only my opinion anyway.. for what its worth..

Defensive?
Who was talking about you?
Guilty conscious?

Your memory serves you well Slayer

Originally posted by jerico65
Don't get your hopes up.

Damn.. coz I just broke up with my girlfriend and was looking for a pen pal


[edit on 8/11/09 by Dermo]

I don't think many "europeans" ( i really dislike using that ambiguous title) are or were actually that bothered about what Americans do with their health-care. I'm certainly not.

However, i became interested (objectively speaking) in this story because

1. America is the current superpower, a lot of what goes on there does make world news, and i like to consider myself informed on the contemporary issues that face the world.

2. the misinformed, inaccurate bollocks that was spouted about our own NHS, which most in this country are very proud of, by media outlets such as Fox, the deluded Walter Mitty character of Daniel Hannan (previously unknown to most in Britain) and a considerable amount of posters on this very website.

My only interest came in trying to put straight several false perceptions about our health service that American users of this site were asserting as fact. I have no interest in telling America what to do with regards to health, guns or mandatory moustache length.

Do what you want, its your country.

I merely tried in my own small way to defend the slandering of an institution i have great pride in.

The current situtation in the US is very interesting, and that's why a lot of international attention is being paid towards it. Please do not mistake this as being told what to do.

reply to post by Dermo


Here is an interesting article.
Europe's free health care has a hefty price tag

The U.S. already spends the most worldwide on health care. According to the Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development, the U.S. spent $7,290 per person in 2007, while Britain spent $2,992 and France spent $3,601.

Still, experts say that before committing the U.S. to footing the bill for universal health care, Obama should consider it has cost Europe.

A World Health Organization survey in 2000 found that France had the world's best health system. But that has come at a high price; health budgets have been in the red since 1988.

In 1996, France introduced targets for health insurance spending. But a decade later, the deficit had doubled to 49 billion euros ($69 billion).

"I would warn Americans that once the government gets its nose into health care, it's hard to stop the dangerous effects later," said Valentin Petkantchin, of the Institut Economique Molinari in France. He said many private providers have been pushed out, forcing a dependence on an overstretched public system.

Just thought u should check some more numbers before going on how europeans are moving to the US. Back in the old days people might have been moving there which u kinda self inflicted by advertising ur country to be the place where everyone could make their dreams come true.

I think u should focus on the PAGE 12 on the next document where imigrants are sorted via region and country of birth rather than the country they told they arrived from....

www.dhs.gov...

Yes if u forgot it alrdy it was page 12...

189,989 from Mexico...
80,000 from China..
63,000 from India...
54,000 from Philippines...

i think us "radical" immigrant from europe moving in are one those u have to worry about the least...

I do realize that the system is not perfect, or anywhere near it but I still trust a healthcare system that promotes health rather than profit.

The French have a habit of over-socializing and stagnating areas of their economy.. over and over.

IMO, it works well as long as the private sector is still given room to breath by creating a situation where the socialized system lacks quite a bit of what the private system has.

It will still bring down the overall costs.


[edit on 8/11/09 by Dermo]

Maybe Europeans aren't as provincial and isolationist as the US? Just a thought.

BTW, the US lags behind Europe in health care. We're about #43 in life expectancy, and #50 in infant mortality. Cuba has lower infant mortality than we do, and I guarantee you, they spend only a fraction of what we do on health care.

Our health care system is murder.

What an ignorant Thread..

So, if the United States of America is so horrible and you have such a great desire to make us more "European", why are so many of you moving here? If it is so wonderfully Utopian there, why flee?

And your Irish, Italian, Greek, British or whatever roots, make you what? Non-european? If your real name isn't "White feather", don't be so loud, 'cause your Family migrated there, too!!



[edit on 11/8/2009 by HarryCat]

Originally posted by Dermo

SNIP

Im not one for big government at all, in fact, I hate the idea but I am a 100% supporter of a social safety net for the less fortunate that includes basic healthcare, education, welfare of some description and protection. IMO Healthcare and capitalism are two things that should not mix because in the overall spectrum, they cannot function together.

This paragraph sums up my feelings, too. Well said.
_______________________________________

I work in Social Services (Education and Counseling) and there are certainly examples of benefit from and abuse of the system by both govt. agencies and public recipients. It seems to be getting worse. Funding is at an all time low and more and more people are clamoring for assistance. Social Services as a whole, is a mess and has been for many years.

Personally, I would love to see complete reform in the health care industry, but the health care bill that just passed the House doesn't fix the issues and probably will make the system more convoluted and much worse. It's my opinion that it will never pass the Senate, as is. It remains to be seen what changes will be made, but I fear it will not be to the benefit of the people.


[edit on 8-11-2009 by LadySkadi]

im just chucking my 2 pence in! - not stiring though ^_^

as someone from the uk, i really really couldnt imagine how bad a world with an american type healthcare system where if you dont have enough money or insurance the dr's will just stop, and let nature take its course!!

the british system is ok, some people may have to wait for things but not all and in general its a good service! i wouldnt be here if it wasnt for nhs, and same goes for all generations of my family after WW2.

for those with the money, they can get private care as well. Insurance is also avaliable just like in the usa...

Im glad that the us government has voted and i hope it gets past the next stage as well... as really, as much opposition as people might have to it, i guarentee in 5 years time that argument will have disaprared as everyone realises they dont need to worry about their medical bills.

this argument is just like the anti gun argument, in usa they have grown up with this culture of paying for healthcare, and their will always be those who oppose change.

one thing that gets me.... noone seems to wonder why their is opposition to medical funding, and more importantly who is actualy pulling the strings of the opposition, as i bet theirs a crap load of conspiricy right their!! as alot of people are going to lose their strangleholds on people when a social healthcare system is started!