This is the United States of America, Not Europe

I agree that there are problems with our health care and health insurance (note the separation of the two, because they are two different problems). But, I contend there are no more problems than anywhere else in the world and far less than some. And, I know, this bill, in excess of 2,000 pages, is not the solution.

The question I pose now is why, exactly, are you Europeans so concerned with the United States of America having socialized health care? In attempt to finally muzzle the elitist Americans and confused Europeans, I submit the following:

1998 - 2008 10,466,605 persons obtaining legal permanent resident status

2000 - 2008 1,315,537 Europeans obtaining legal permanent resident status

Source: www.dhs.gov...

So, if the United States of America is so horrible and you have such a great desire to make us more "European", why are so many of you moving here? If it is so wonderfully Utopian there, why flee?

reply to post by WTFover


I would hardly call 1 million Europeans a "large amount" particularly when the population of the European continent is in excess of 831.4 million (Wiki). In fact it seems like a rather small fraction when you look at it this way!

[edit on 8/11/2009 by Kryties]

reply to post by Kryties


Are there any countries that currently have such a large influx of foreigners seeking residency?

That would really be the "tell tale" as far as the numbers go.

The numbers quoted in the OP may be extraordinary...

Semper

Your figures do not prove anything. I would like to see those figures broken down into nationalities. I am betting that most of them are from former eastern bloc countries.

As for the healthcare issue and immigration - How does this link?

People emigrate for all sorts of reasons. I for one hope to be emigrating when I retire in a few years time. I am not emigrating because of my nationalised heathcare nor am I emigrating because the country I am choosing to emigrate to has basic healthcare facilities.

I am sorry, but your arguement does not wash.

So, wanting to bring our infant mortality, life expectancy, health care effectiveness and health care accessibility more in line with European and other industrialized nations, means we want to "Be Europe", than so be it.

I would rather have the national health care of Europe than Somalia any day.

reply to post by Kryties


True, but is one tenth of the total legal immigration to here. That is significant. Also, isn't just one too many? I would never consider moving to the beautiful country of Australia and begin to try to remake it into something more like the United States of America.

Edit: What I meant to say, but got ahead of myelf, is that even one immigrant trying to change the country they immigrate to is too many. Sorry for any confusion.

[edit on 8-11-2009 by WTFover]

To be honest as a British European i for one do not really have an interest in the health care of the USA and know no one who really pays any interest in the subject so as per the previous poster i would imagine the only people who really do have an opinion is the eastern block Europeans. The only reason i would consider a move to the USA is to be able to put my feet up in retirement.

reply to post by WTFover


I think you'll find that during the same period more non-europeans moved to europe (circa 2.5 million/y) than the entire immigration input of the US, that's not counting migration within the EU itself. In other words, almost twice as many people migrate to the EU than the US (about 20 million over 8 years).

Besides, what does immigration have to do with anything? You're "we're better than you because more people move here" argument is

1. wrong

2. petty





[edit on 8-11-2009 by quackers]

[edit on 8-11-2009 by quackers]

True, but is one tenth of the total legal immigration to here. That is significant. Also, isn't just one too many? I would never consider moving to the beautiful country of Australia and begin to try to remake it into something more like the United States of America.

Yet this is exactly what your country is doing, lets face it. Whether you choose to see it or not, the U.S has been meddling with other countries' affairs in the same fashion you accuse Europeans of.

You have transformed countries through forces of cultural expansion, and in many other cases, war (in the same way we have as Europeans).

It's something we all do, the difference with regards to this topic, is that the global media circus largely aims at U.S interests.

reply to post by WTFover


You are making the huge claim that the reason they are moving is because of the health care reform. That's a rather large assumption to be making, unless of course you are personally interviewing each one of them and asking what their reasons for coming to live in the US are.

Personally, I don't see what the hubbub is about over this health care reform - we here in Australia have had a public Medicare system for decades and I most certainly wouldn't have it any other way. Having access to a doctor whenever I need one just by having my Medicare card swiped is light-years ahead of waiting in line for hours then copping a nice bill at the end of it - just because you caught a cold.

The Europeans have also had similar systems and I think they are just interested in America finally helping out it's citizens rather than some nefarious agenda to "socialise America".

[edit on 8/11/2009 by Kryties]

reply to post by quackers


Okay? So there are twice as many immigrants to 23 countries as there are to the United States of America. Your point would be?

I never said we are "better" than anyone. We are, however, different and that difference is the reason many people come here.

[edit on 8-11-2009 by WTFover]

Originally posted by quackers
reply to post by WTFover

 

I think you'll find that during the same period more non-europeans moved to europe (circa 2.5 million/y) than the entire immigration input of the US, that's not counting migration within the EU itself. In other words, almost twice as many people migrate to the EU than the US (about 20 million over 8 years).

Besides, what does immigration have to do with anything? You're "we're better than you because more people move here" argument is

1. wrong

2. petty

More assumptions.
Who said anything about "we're better than you"?

The US needs to get this Health care situation under control one way or another. Unlike Europe our population is increasing. From both legal as well as illegal immigration. It will become a major issue over the next few decades. We need to tackle this now. While Europe and Australia have their own demographic issues to deal with. Everybody has some sort of population issues in their future.
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/e1759bbaa583.jpg[/atsimg]

Muslim Europe: the demographic time bomb transforming our continent

Europe's low white birth rate, coupled with faster multiplying migrants, will change fundamentally what we take to mean by European culture and society.

The altered population mix has far-reaching implications for education, housing, welfare, labour, the arts and everything in between. It could have a critical impact on foreign policy: a study was submitted to the US Air Force on how America's relationship with Europe might evolve. Yet EU officials admit that these issues are not receiving the attention they deserve.

[edit on 8-11-2009 by SLAYER69]

reply to post by Kryties

You are making the huge claim that the reason they are moving is because of the health care reform.

I made no such claim. People are immigrating here, not because of the health care system, but in spite of it. I, simply, asked why are our immigration numbers so high, if our country is so horrible. Some people are reading way more into this thread, than what is really there.

Originally posted by WTFover

I, simply, asked why are our immigration numbers so high, if our country is so horrible.

OK then, you are making a large assumption that Europeans think the US is horrible. I think it's more that they see no difference between themselves and the US in terms of corruption and atrocities and whatnot - and get annoyed that they can admit it yet the US seems to get memory blocks on the subject.

[edit on 8/11/2009 by Kryties]

reply to post by Wotan


I am not trying to be confrontational, here. Just voicing my opinion, in the form of a question. I am glad to discuss any of the facts. To properly address your comment would take quite a while. So, I limited my response to your country.

154,562 legal immigrants from the United Kingdom to the U.S.

www.dhs.gov...

reply to post by WTFover


Perhaps they're working in the USA ? For a British company ? My cousin is. He's on secondment to a US Navy shipyard. Does he count ? Hope not ... he doesn't count himself as an emigrant.

My Father has a second home in Florida. He's off there in a months time, he likes to stay there during the Winter for a few months ... bought the house for a snip. But that doesn't mean he's emigrated.

I should go down the road and ask that American couple why they chose to live in my part of the world ... oops ... he works here. There's a Canadian lady next door to them ... ah, she works here too. Guess what ? They're returning to their own countries when their period of employment end.

People come, people go. In isolation those statistics mean nada.

Originally posted by WTFover
reply to post by Kryties

 

True, but is one tenth of the total legal immigration to here. That is significant. Also, isn't just one too many? I would never consider moving to the beautiful country of Australia and begin to try to remake it into something more like the United States of America.

I am not American but I have noticed that going to America and trying to change it is exactly what happens. Your PC does not allow you to remain the same. You must and will agree with foreign ideas, otherwise be branded intolerant/racist.
It is a great way to encourage globalization, and it seems that national sovereignty worldwide is on a decline.
Ideally, we are one world, so we all share the same problems. I am not so sure that is how it really is though in practice.

I guess what i'm trying to say is "get used to it", because the pull of international governing bodies is increasing daily.

reply to post by Ulala


Ok? I don't know your brother or your father. So, why so defensive? I made an observation, backed up with facts, based on what I've read, here on ATS, heard and read in the media, and experienced first hand.

reply to post by WTFover


Europeans are moving to America, you will find that alot of the Europeans you are referring to are Dutch, French or similar nationality's that are African, Congolese that have just been given EU residency to get them the hell out of these countries.

The people of the UK are suffering due to these problems and a lot of theses now "legal" immigrants are moving to the US for a better life. you will find your country will become a lot healthier, Health care should not be a business, god help you when you get some nasty diseases and cant afford the medication to save your life, this is where the NHS comes into its own.

Universal free health care is a basic human right

Wee Mad Mental

reply to post by heyo

You must and will agree with foreign ideas, otherwise be branded intolerant/racist.... I guess what i'm trying to say is "get used to it", because the pull of international governing bodies is increasing daily.

Starred! "You will be assimilated, Resistance is futile" No, thank you. I have a better idea.