At Least 7 Dead, 12 Wounded in Shooting at Ft. Hood in Texas

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
reply to post by centurion1211

 

Can you prove you weren't celebrating right along with them!

Of course. What about you?

Seems to me the bigots are the first to overlook the tragedy and to start exploiting a political agenda out of it.

My political agenda is the U.S. Constitution...NO RELIGIOUS PERSECUTION.

IMO absolutely no one reading your posts believes that for a second.

What's yours?


[edit on 10/11/09 by ProtoplasmicTraveler]

It's obvious - and I don't pretend to be someone or something else as you do - bringing the true threat of radical islam to the light of day for all to see.

Originally posted by starviego
Too many early reports refer to more than one assailant, for the official version of just one shooter to be true--

Chalk it up to the FOG of WAR
When the heat is on, confusion rules the day.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
reply to post by centurion1211

 

No what you are doing is imagining how you think a certain religion does that by misapplying words and terms and then deflecting away when it's shown that people are.

Do you have anything productive to add to the conversation friend?

Or are you just looking for a platform to promote bigotry?

Absolutely incorrect. My posts are based on actual events, not religious theory used as a smokescreen.

What you are attempting here is no different than someone trying to defend the barbarous acts of the former soviet union, by telling us that "true communism" does not condone those actions. They still happened, didn't they?

So, in the same way, it doesn't matter if "true islam" doesn't condone these crimes if there are many people out there claiming they are doing it for and because of islam.

[edit on 11/10/2009 by centurion1211]

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


Thankyou for painting a better picture of Fard Al Ayn although the version with the 72 virgins would have sounded better. I guess I got a little confused on reading the various posts of nenothtu as well as JJ.
Even though that mite be, we also need to note the fact that Islam has killed more number of people for the sake of RELIGION than anyone else has. Concepts such as paying taxes to exist if you are non muslim or to face conversion or death in case you are a non muslim not of the books in itself speaks for the oppressive and violent culture that they got going. We mite as well pay the carbon tax as proposed by Al gore. A non muslim who is not of the books even when converted, if male will be accepted as a slave and if a female will only be taken as a concubine. But of course a non muslim of the books who takes to Islam will be considered as equal. As a muslim you are entitled to have upto 7 wives at the same time as well as upto 3 concubines. Thats one of the reasons why their populations are so high. Guess they were not interested in family planning, just breeding till end of days. Men and women are not given equal rights. Education is barred for women and they are considered inferior and can be condemned whenever desired. Sounds more like the stone age does'nt it??? Religion comes first, not their nationality, ethnicity or state laws. They identify themselves only based on religion. Its a good thing they have a lot of oil in their land which enabled them to make friendship with the west otherwise they would be no where by now.
How does it make you feel after reading that, does it make you feel inferior for being non muslim??? Apparently no 72 virgins for you or me friend...
Do you think oxford university data could contain all of Islam or is in anyway a good source for quoting Islam. Most definitely not!

Its okay to kill non muslim - www.youtube.com...

By the way the previous post I made to you regarding the new testament was just meant to say that I follow the teachings of the new testament and do not claim the whole history of the bible to be correct. The new testament contains very less to almost no history, just teachings.

Originally posted by JJay55

Originally posted by CuteAngel
reply to post by JJay55

 

So in other words, any muslim in an Islamic country who is participating with the government who supports the West is a traitor in the eyes of Islam and should be killed. That's why in Iraq the police stations and others working for a new government are often killed. The "true" muslims see them as infidels and part of the West. Same as apostates. Once you are a muslim you are always a muslims and if you support the west you have violated Sharia Law and should die. Sword of Perecles in a sense, but enforced with real violence.

Mate, who teaches you all this stuff?

Those pakistani troops fighting with taliban are not muslims?

The northern alliance fighting taliban are not muslims?

The afghan and iraq democratic army are not muslims?

Muslim leaders around the world fighting extremism are not muslims?

Muslims scholars condoning extremism are not muslims?

Muslim scholars taking a fatwa out on extremism are not muslims?

The sufis fighting against extremist Al-shabab in somalia are not muslims?

Hamas rejecting al-qaeda ideoligy and having a fire fight with them are not muslims?

Saudi kings are not muslims?

Muslims living in the west and following Western laws are not muslims?

They all should be killed in the eyes of true muslims?

Than who is a true muslim?

The one out of 1.6bil muslims who straps bomb to himself is a true muslim?




[edit on 10-11-2009 by merkava]

reply to post by merkava

What?

Originally posted by JJay55
reply to post by merkava

 

What?

You said any muslim whose participating in fighting against 'true muslim' extremists are not muslims.

So does that make them all not muslims because they are fighting extremism?

[edit on 10-11-2009 by merkava]

Originally posted by merkava

Originally posted by JJay55
reply to post by merkava

 

What?

You said any muslim whose participating in fighting against 'true muslim' extremists are not muslims.

So does that make them all not muslims because they are fighting extremism?

[edit on 10-11-2009 by merkava]

No, I don't use the word extremists. Sorry. There is no such thing as extremism.

Originally posted by JJay55

Originally posted by merkava

Originally posted by JJay55
reply to post by merkava

 

No, I don't use the word extremists. Sorry. There is no such thing as extremism.

So according to your conclusion of 40 years of islamic research you believe that every muslim is an extremist nutter who aims to kill the non-muslim kuffar infidel when he participates in 'fardy ayn'?

I am talking about the 1.6 bil muslims that exist on this same planet that you live on, not the odd abdullah, hasan or muhammad who go out bombing and shooting every once in a while.

[edit on 10-11-2009 by merkava]

[edit on 10-11-2009 by merkava]

reply to post by merkava

What?
You are taking my posts out of context.
Please take your attraction to me elsewhere.
Thanks.

from CNN
""It's getting harder and harder for Muslims in the service to morally justify being in a military that seems constantly engaged against fellow Muslims," he said during the PowerPoint presentation before his supervisors and other mental health staff members, according to the paper.

The presentation, titled "The Koranic World View As It Relates to Muslims in the U.S. Military," made mention of suicide bombers, "offensive jihad," the Taliban and Osama bin Laden, the Post reported."

Ok, so the words are coming out of this mans mouth yet there will still be those who deny this is about Islam and say he's a wackjob. That's kinda funny.

Originally posted by JJay55
reply to post by merkava

 

What?
You are taking my posts out of context.
Please take your attraction to me elsewhere.
Thanks.

Why do you keep running away from my questions?

Scared of revealing your bigoted agenda?

reply to post by CuteAngel


Here is the reality CuteAngel Religious Scholars spend their entire lives studying religious texts in large part because they are written in different languages and often in vague ways that make them hard to accurately translate.

Whether it is Judaism, or Christianity or Islam religious scholars like the laity of most of these sects have differing opinions not only what they actually mean but the context in which these things were defined.

Religious Scholars like the laity of all these sects argue and protest one another’s translations, suppositions and theories for various purposes including ego, academia, religious purism, theism, and politics.

Do you really believe someone like JJay has read or understands the Quran? Most Christians can’t even agree with what precisely the Bible means. Yet JJay understands what the Quran means? Most Christians all interpret the Bible and what it means to them and for them in different ways. Are you really inclined to believe most Muslims don’t do the exact same thing?

Ultimately what people like JJay want to do is to deflect away from the underlying root political causes that entice people to see violence as a solution. Most of what you have been told about the Quran is pure fabrication put forth by extremists.

I am much more wary of the Hebrew religion than I am the Muslim Religion, like the Muslims and Sharia Law the Jews maintain their own separate Court System that uses Talmudic Law.

I have watched videos where Christian Scholars attempt to translate the Talmud to put it forth in highly prejudicial and frightening ways.

I know though that there translation of it as a Christian Scholar and not a Talmudic Scholar with the aim of making the Talmud appear to be a frightening thing for non-Hebrew people is aimed at and geared towards frightening non-Hebrew people for religious and political purposes.

I know that they are giving me part of the story, a part that is probably taken somewhat out of context and a part that probably fails to mention mitigating or overriding factors that the Talmud might include so that they can arrive at a highly biased version to put forth.

I know that they are doing this for purely political and religious purposes, that it’s not likely a true reflection of the Talmud or Talmudic Law.

I know because I don’t read, write, or understand the language the Talmud was written in that I can’t research it myself unless I want to learn to read, write and learn to understand that language first.

The people who make those videos for religious purposes and political purposes know I don’t speak the language it was written in and don’t understand it and they know I am hostage at having to take their word for it!

I consider what they have to say but I wouldn’t want to stake my reputation or life on what they say and as I have said I am someone very wary of Zionist politics, but I am just as wary as anyone taking advantage of me for political or religious purposes and manipulating me to that end.

These videos are more or less telling me what I would love to hear about the Talmud, that it’s bad or it’s evil or it’s highly prejudicial to people who aren’t Jewish. By all rights I should be thrilled to take their words for it.

I don’t for one simple reason, I don’t know how well qualified they are, how honest they are being, and what they might have conveniently chosen to overlook to put forth their contentions.

I wisely choose to reserve judgment and continue to look for other sources. Credible sources whose purpose is academia and understanding not promoting one religion by vilifying another and not preaching blanket distrust and hate of an entire class of people based on the notion of a shared affiliation.

The truth is I know Jews who have never been to Synagogue and never read the Talmud, I know Christians that have never been to Church or read the Bible, I know Muslims who don’t pray six times a day, ever go to a Mosque and don’t own a Quran.

Do you really think it would be wise of me to condemn all those people on what someone like JJay has to say about them, based on his own false and poor understanding of what a book says he has never read as it was written because he doesn’t speak or understand the language?

Yes Universities like Oxford study religion in depth and have genuine religious scholars who have an interest more in the academics of it than the theism involved. They do it day in and day out year after year, decade after decade, century after century and I would be far more inclined to take their word on what’s in the Quran, Talmud, Old Testament, or Holy Roman Bible before I would someone like JJay.

Rejecting the arguments of people who are telling you what you want to hear is not easy. It takes wisdom and self discipline it takes a love of the truth, not of fear, ego or hatred.

I think you are being fed a lot of bad information by people who ultimately hope you do bad things with it.




[edit on 10/11/09 by ProtoplasmicTraveler]

reply to post by merkava

I'm not scared of you in the least.
How about if you keep on topic?

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

 

Wow Proto it sounds like someone posting to this thread is really mixed up and is not only mistaking what Fard al-Ayn means but has it totally confused with fard al-kifayah!

I don't think they actually know that fard al-kifayah is something that is only being debated in one of the two sects of Islam the Shia Sect and not the Sunni Sect.

I don't think they actually know that the debate is centered on the concept that the community has an obligation to reproach un-just rulers! That the debate regarding fard al-kifayah is whether there is a communal obligation as oppoesed to an individual legal obligation and if the community in general should oppose unjust rulers and how.

Of course none of what's being debated in regards to that is written in the Quran which is why it's a debate amongst some radical and politically minded Muslims.

I wonder how the bigots got that so confused?



[edit on 10/11/09 by ProtoplasmicTraveler]

I am confused are you responding to yourself?

This is a reminder to remain on topic and that personal attacks are not allowed.

Thank you.

reply to post by CuriousSkeptic


They are blaming political correctness, but what do I know.

reply to post by Stormdancer777

I am confused are you responding to yourself?

Shhhh! I do this sometimes riding my bicycle and eating at the Picadilly Cafeteria too! You aren't supposed to notice!

Note to self: Stop talking to your self!

Yes I was responding to myself as I needed to question myself more in depth about this silly notion that Fard al-Ayn is some kind of religious edict to kill non-Muslims.

I still had some questions that I knew only I could answer so I took a chance on seeing if I asked myself if I would respond.

Thankfully I am so well mannered and so polite I did!






[edit on 10/11/09 by ProtoplasmicTraveler]

Originally posted by JJay55

I'd be glad to explain, thank you.
Fard ayn is like a club, you are either part of the gang and do the duty expressed in the Koran to punish non-believers or you are one of them, thus subjected to death.

What drivel.

Fard al-Ayn is "Obligation", and covers several aspects of islam, everything from paying zakat to hajj.

It is NOT "killin' white folks".

I told folks you didn't have a clue what you were talking about.

Now you've proven it for me.

you should have studied up, like I asked.

Originally posted by nenothtu

Originally posted by JJay55

I'd be glad to explain, thank you.
Fard ayn is like a club, you are either part of the gang and do the duty expressed in the Koran to punish non-believers or you are one of them, thus subjected to death.

What drivel.

Fard al-Ayn is "Obligation", and covers several aspects of islam, everything from paying zakat to hajj.

It is NOT "killin' white folks".

I told folks you didn't have a clue what you were talking about.

Now you've proven it for me.

you should have studied up, like I asked.

She is actually referring incorrectly to this:

Fard al-Kifayah
Defines a communal obligation in Muslim legal doctrine. In juxtaposition to fard al-ayn, fard al-kifayah is a legal obligation that must be discharged by the Muslim community as a whole, such as military struggle; if enough members in the Muslim community discharge the obligation, the remaining Muslims are freed from the responsibility before God. However, if a communal obligation is not sufficiently discharged, then every individual Muslim must act to address the deficiency. In recent Islamic literature, this terminology is used to discuss social responsibility, such as feeding the hungry, commanding good, and forbidding evil.

Oxford Islamic Studies

Even then she is very mixed up as this call for a fard al-kifayah Jihad has never been agreed upon or placed.

There are no factual sources that support her contentions in relation to Fard al-Ayin.