Is Yahweh the Supreme Creator or an Evil God?

a reply to: Akragon
The fact that Jesus has acted as a posterboy for a religion that promises to torture all people who won't worship Jesus in e hell he himself created says it all. I'm taking the Bible at face value here. Of course Jesus could be a lunatic or not understanding that his blatherings would lead to the death and despair of millions. In that case he's just a #ing prick who deserves to have his face kicked in for even opening his mouth. But if we are to take the Bible at face value, then it's not the word of John at all, just as a letter is written by an author, not by a pen. In THIS case, the Bible is inspired i.e. "written" by YHWH. Jesus claims he is YHWH, and therefore responsible for this evil #book. So if we are to take the Bible at face value, Jesus is responsible for both creating hell and condemning people to be tortured there forever. In this case, Jesus doesn't only deserve to get his face kicked in, he deserves to be tortured there forever himself. If you are going to take the position that Jesus was NOT the "God" of The Old Testament, you'll have to adopt a gnostic view, because the Bible makes this claim several times. Jesus is YHWH in human form, per the Bible. His "son", yes, but also himself. No doubt about it.

There is no "deeper understanding" in threatening people that you will torture them forever.

a reply to: malmanomar

Nowhere does Jesus ever talk of eternal torture. That is a churchianity doctrine of devils that was added for control. The word used for eternal in the New testament is Aion, or Aionios. It is Eon or Eonios. Age or Age during. NOT eternal. And the word torture, is Basanos which is to test the purity of a metal with a touchstone.

Fire is purifying in the symbolism of the Bible. Yes many got it wrong including many of the writers of the OT, and even some of the New. Jesus corrects peoples view of God when he says "no man has seen the Father at any time, except the Son", or "you brood of vipers, you do not know what spirit you are of". The prophets also condemn much of the OT view of God.

"Sacrifice and burnt offering I did not desire"

I understand your vehemence toward the god that is projected by churchianity, but that is not the God of Jesus, or Paul, or John.

Jesus was very critical of the OT, yes he quoted it, but that doesn't mean he wholesale accepted it as modern churchianity tries to claim. He was very selective in quoting the OT, very unbiblical in his exegesis, he probably would be derided by most christians today for the way he cherry picked the bible. Paul is the same. It is not so cut and dry, there are many voices throughout the Bible, some have some truth, some have very little, some have lots. But the genocidal, eternal torturing god that is the idol of modern christianity is NOT THE GOD.

a reply to: zardust
Strong's Concordance
aiónios: agelong, eternal
Original Word: αἰώνιος, ία, ιον
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: aiónios
Phonetic Spelling: (ahee-o'-nee-os)
Short Definition: eternal, unending
Definition: age-long, and therefore: practically eternal, unending; partaking of the character of that which lasts for an age, as contrasted with that which is brief and fleeting.

biblehub.com...

That's long enough for me to know Jesus is an asshole. Are you going to explain away the sea of fire and brimstone as well?

If Jesus had been wise or the "Son of "God"", he had shut the # up. He also said he wasn't there to abolish the law or the prophets and that he and the father, meaning YHWH was one and the same. I am taking the Bible at face value and looking at the destruction it has brought. If Jesus was really just an idiot shooting his mouth off with no regard or knowledge of the horror the christian church would let rain down on man, Mary should have aborted. She should have done that either way. I'd gladly punture her belly with a knife if I had the chance. Whoever Jesus was or was not, the dread that has followed in his wake is evidence enough for me this Jesus is an utter lowlife. So I repeat myself: The fact that he didn't know better than to shoot his filthy mouth off with devestating results, proves he should be scorned and opposed.

If YHWH of the Bible is not the "THE GOD", then why have the "THE GOD" let him usurp his power?
And don't say to accomodate free will, please. This nightmare we're in is not possible to explain without applying the satanic principles of "survival of the fittest" and "eat or be eaten" into the equation. And we're supposed to suck Jesus' dick after seeing this world filled with unnecessary pain? Not me, unless to bite down really hard.

originally posted by: kingoftheworld
I have been recently questioning me beliefs. When you think about it your logic tells you to ask "Hey, if He is all loving and merciful, then how can he send people to a lake of fire for eternity"? Well, I believe that the answer lies within the Bible. God, or in my case Jesus Christ gives us plenty of warning in there. Just read it and be open minded. And just a tip. If you have a bible, and you have a very important question about your faith in God, just get out a bible pray to god and ask him the question and open up the bible to a random page, and your question will be answered. (NOTE : Me, my brother and mom do this all the time and he has always come thru for us. You just have to believe that he'll do it for you. Just very recently actually Me and my brother converted a friend to Christianity using this. He was asking stuff like why people go to hell even if they are born knowing other religions and why we are here, and every single question was answered on the page he opened).

Well of course you are going to find your answer, there are a lot of words on those two pages to choose from.
Pick what you like and run with it.

a reply to: malmanomar

Damn.. You're pretty angry eh

Kinda hard to work with someone with serious anger issues...

That or you've been reading the evil bible website far to much...

We'll see though... might not be much of a point in any case...

With posts like those, you won't be around long enough to actually learn anything...

But we'll see I suppose

a reply to: malmanomar

Strongs concordance is wrong on this count (and many others also). If you really care, I'll gladly dig up all the evidence that they are wrong, but I don't think you really care. It seems you just want to scream and shout. Maybe I'm wrong. I usually don't even answer these posts because nobody listens, but just keeps screaming. But maybe you will, or someone else will see and stop perpetuating the myth of eternal torture in the bible.

Eternal and age during are very different. And yes brimstone is sulfur which was used for purifying temples. The book of Revelation is a vision of the Temple. The entire book is based around temple symbolism, and not some future bloody destruction on earth. You are the temple. The word for brimstone is Theion, which derives from theos, meaning God. You can look up the meaning of theion and even ole' Strongs has it as purifying, of deity or used in temples. The great thing is you can look historically and see that sulfur was and still is used as an anti-microbial in temples and in general.

You'll notice that the smoke of their torment is in the presence of the lamb and his saints. Elsewhere it is said that God's ministers are flames of fire. Our God is a consuming fire. This fire is the very presence of God.

Wow I just finished reading your post, you are really angry. I'm sorry about that. I don't believe that the evil in this world is because of God, you may not like the free will argument, but I don't have much else. If you don't like that argument then what is your explanation for all the evil in the world? Do you think that we are controlled by an evil god? Or is it that you are just anti-god and trying to show the foolishness of those that believe in god. Either way you cut it, you are responsible for being good and caring for others. Or maybe you're just a robot who doesn't make any decisions. Or maybe this whole thing is a dream, or a bad nightmare.

I believe that we have dominion of this realm of earth, collectively as mankind. God has given it to us to tend. We have failed. Jesus came and stood in opposition to the world system and said Love one another that is how the world will know you are one of my disciples, and one with my father. THE GOD

It is very simple, and yet so hard, but it is the only way. Whether you agree with the rest of the bible, I know of no other system that would eliminate all of the problems in our world.

LOA
Love One Another

a reply to: sylvie

All very normal and expected reservations toward Almighty God in the present age of self rule.

Yahweh Elohim is the Almighty Creator God of all things (spiritual and physical), the Father of Jesus Christ; the self existing One.

All things in Creation (seen and unseen) are for the purpose of the reproduction of Elohim over time. God is re-creating His way of thinking in the minds of physical mankind over time.

The spiritual realm was first created to sustain the physical, Angels were created within the spirit realm as ministers for the physical realm which soon followed. Billions of years ago God (Yahweh Elohim) created the Heavens (spiritual realm) followed by the Earth (physical realm).

After that initial creation of Earth was destroyed by the actions of Lucifer just prior to his "fall" (no life existed); God "re-created" the Earth in 6 days roughly 6000 years ago.

Mankind was created physical for a purpose. We were made subject to vanity (pride/selfishness) in opposition to the mind of Yahweh Elohim for a purpose.

We were given one entire lifetime in the present age of mankind's self rule to determine for ourselves what is right and wrong, good and evil; by free moral agency. We live a lifetime according to what we think is right and wrong; then we die a physical death in this age. This is the reality of the last 6000 years of mankind's history.

At a future point in time (Great White Thrown Resurrection) after the millennial reign of Jesus Christ Elohim and the other 144,000 members of Elohim; all mankind that lived a life in the present age according to what seemed right to the individual will be resurrected to physical life a second time (this is the second life, of which the potential for a second death is active) according to God's will.

During the 100 year long time frame of the Great White Thrown Judgement age; all mankind that is resurrected at that time will be given the truth of all things from Yahweh Elohim. They will live a second lifetime in obedience to the mind of God (Holy Spirit), they will learn of their nature, why the age of mankind's self rule was full of suffering and pain and how to "think differently" (gk = repent) according to the perfect will of God in their second lives.

By living one full lifetime according to your own desires (lusts/selfishness) followed at a later point by one full lifetime according to God's desires (self-sacrifice/love) we, as free moral agent will willingly CHOOSE agreement with God's way of thinking over that of our own selfish nature because we will reap the benefits of "goodness" in our second life when compared to reaping the curses of "evil" in the present life. We will KNOW through experience that "my way" leads to pain and suffering and "God's way" leads to blessing and joy.

Only by living both ways of life through EXPERIENCE can mankind be re-created to choose a way of thinking which is in opposition to our created physical nature.

OLD TESTAMENT:
God worked with mankind in a unique manner in Old testament times. Since the savior had not yet been created (Jesus Christ) the means for the indwelling of God's Holy Spirit was not yet made manifest. During the 6000 year age for mankind's self rule, only 144,000 individual minds were worked with by God over their first lifetimes. All others are meant for a second physical life. God worked with ancient Israel physically for the purpose of teaching spiritual lessons to those 144,000 individual minds who were called and chosen for salvation in this present age.

If after 2 entire lifetimes (one according to what you think is right, and one according to what God says is right) you CHOOSE to disagree with the mind of God (Holy Spirit) you will be cast into the "lake of fire" (gk = ghenna) and be consumed in totality. Not actively punished for eternity, but rather a punishment which will last for eternity; never to have the gift of life again. The individual who chooses conflict (disagreement with God) over peace (agreement with God) will eventually cease to exist, for the good of all creation after their second life. This is the plain truth, so to teach those 144,000 individual minds (who do not get the chance of repentance in a second lifetime) this great final lesson God used ancient Israel as an example. Not a positive example, but one that shows that the punishment for sin (disagreement with the mind of God) is DEATH (eventually).

Since God has a plan to resurrect all those who died in the Old Testament as a result of your concerned stories (Sodom and Gomorrah, Noah's Flood, Joshua's conquest of Canaan etc.) it is not an "evil" plan. Death in the present age is NECESSARY for the creation of Elohim over time according to God's perfect plan. All mankind sins by our very nature, as such we are all guilty of sin and are destined to die a physical death in the present age. However death in this age is not the end, it is halftime.

The present age is NOT the age of salvation for mankind, it is the age of salvation for only 144,000 individual minds over the course of 6000 years for the purpose of the creation of the Kingdom of God at the return of Jesus Christ soon to take place.

After the establishment of the millennial reign of Jesus Christ and the Kingdom of God (Elohim) on Earth it will be an age for salvation of all mankind, as we all live according to the laws of God in spirit and in truth under the rule of Christ.

Any sinner (all mankind) that dies in the present age is a lawful (at one with the mind of God) death. Therefore every death in the present age is justified for the purpose of the Creation of Elohim (God Family) at a future point in time.

Everything God gave ancient Israel (and mankind prior) to accomplish in the Old Testament was a metaphor used to teach agreement with God's way of thinking in the present age for only 144,000 individual minds in the last 6000 years. I was accomplished so they would overcome themselves and be "chosen" as members of the Kingdom of God soon to come to rule over all the Earth.

God so loves his future, yet to be finished, family (Elohim, the purpose for all creation) that He sacrificed Himself (God is peace/agreement), allowed for the existence of disagreement (chaos/evil) in free minds for a period of 7100 years so He could mold and fashion beautiful, unique and creative beings as children (made in the spiritual image of God's way of thinking) brothers and sister with Jesus Christ the "first of the first-fruits" of physical salvation.

After 2 lifetimes, any being that agrees with God's way of thinking will be transformed into a member of Elohim (born again of spirit); any being that disagree's with God's way of thinking will be destroyed in the lake of fire, never to have life/consciousness again. All will know the choice fully, all will know that Yahweh Elohim is the God of all Creation and that agreement = life, disagreement = death. Yet the choice will always be up to the individual mind as to how they CHOOSE to think.

It all can be boiled down to this:

agreement = God is right
disagreement = I am right

After 2 full lifetimes, all minds will fall into one bucket or the other. But the present age and the times recorded in the Old Testament is NOT the time for these things to be made known to all mankind, for a great and powerful purpose.

God Bless,

originally posted by: wylekat
Fine. Now open that magic book of yours and tell me why God created pure evil, and let it run loose- instead of just destroying Lucifer outright.

Because the only way to create free moral agents (conscious beings) who CHOOSE God's way of thinking, against the natural way of thinking (I am right) is to have those minds experience evil (disagreement with God's way of thinking) and the painful results; so they can CHOOSE to "think differently".

Evil must exist for God to create Elohim (His family) as individual creative thinking beings (not robots in thinking, but individual and creative).

God is a Creator and His children will be also in time. To have freedom of creative thought while in full agreement with the way God thinks is to create billions of children in the image of their Creator and eternal peace of thought.

For any mind to be given that type of authority while in disagreement with the way God thinks, is to enable eternal chaos. For once in Elohim (composed of the very Spirit of the Almighty) a disagreeing mind cannot be destroyed; however while physically composed (during a minds first 2 lifetimes) a disagreeing mind can be destroyed for the good of all things.

This is why God Created evil (free choice of thought within an individual mind) in both the spirit realm (angels) and the physical realm (mankind). Knowing that by creating us with a choice, we would choose evil (my way) over good (God's way), by nature; until we learn the lesson first hand as to why God's way is good and my way is evil.

God Bless,

a reply to: zardust

Aion certainly doesn't mean 15 seconds, which is the limit of what I could accept a "God of Love" to torture people in a lake of fire and sulphur before I view him as evil.

I think I have mentioned this before, but the author of the Bible sure was sloppy when concocting that inhumane piece of **** book? It's aaaaaall misunderstandings, huh? Not likely. "God" didn't authotr that book, either it was very evil men on their own, or very evil men aided by demonic forces.

Yes, I believe a demiurge has usurped the power of this world and now poses as the unholy trinity YHWH-Jesus-Allah. That's why the three abrahamic religions have caused so much havoc. Because they most likely are the result of demonic manipulation. Jews will curse christians and muslims. Christians will blame muslims for being "of Satan", and muslims will look at jews and christians as lost and long for the day when they can force them to convert or die. Christians have been known to dabble in those activities as well. Another "misunderstanding", I guess? Then I repeat the one in charge did a sloppy job at communicating his message. All three faiths are actually puppets of demonic forces seeking to demolish mankind or at least suck us dry. These three religions are played off against each other to produce the most damaging result possible.

Jesus couldn't care less if we loved one another if we didn't love him first, Matthew 10:34-37 He's nothing but the greatest most sickening ego that has ever walked the face of the earth. I know of no other system than the abrahamic faiths that has done so much damage.

It's "God" that has failed, not mankind.
Can you put 2 and 2 together? The result isn't 10/6.

a reply to: malmanomar

Why did God let the demiurge usurp him? You asked me that question now I ask you.

It seems you don't know much about what Jesus said, but just want to scream and shout. Thats fine, but I won't continue in a pointless venture.

And its not torture, the word does not mean torture. It means to test for purity. Its a word picture describing the purifying of metals. So that you will be a piece of fine gold, instead of dross filled slag.

originally posted by: ElohimJD

Because the only way to create free moral agents (conscious beings) who CHOOSE God's way of thinking, against the natural way of thinking (I am right) is to have those minds experience evil (disagreement with God's way of thinking) and the painful results; so they can CHOOSE to "think differently".

Evil must exist for God to create Elohim (His family) as individual creative thinking beings (not robots in thinking, but individual and creative).


This is why God Created evil (free choice of thought within an individual mind) in both the spirit realm (angels) and the physical realm (mankind). Knowing that by creating us with a choice, we would choose evil (my way) over good (God's way), by nature; until we learn the lesson first hand as to why God's way is good and my way is evil.

God Bless,

So, god created evil so we can choose wether or not to go to hell that god himself created and burn to a crisp forever or choose 'good' (of which people think god is good, which contradicts the OT)

What kind of a mind game is that, god created evil so we can choose?

Instead of all the BS god shovels our way, why doesn't Mr. Omnipotentomnipresent just prove to humanity he is real instead of all the mind games he created in order to punish most of us so we can burn for not believing in him because he does not prove he is real?

It's all apologetics for ignoring prayers and being a no-show.

Evil exists because S**t happens and some people are buttholes.

I get tired of people saying it's a test or god works in mysterious ways when it's just possible there is no god to stop anything and if there is, why create evil at all; so he can punish us by being human (which he supposedly created) and send us to hell of which he also supposedly created. Which begs the question, why create evil at all? Unless god is sadistic and he needs to see suffering in order to see the terrible things he can allow to happen but does not stop because he is evil himself.

It's like if I had a cage with mice in it, I can have a bunch of happy mice playing in the wood shavings but I can add some parasites, a snake and a few mice that are aggresive dickheads.
Then I can see which mice beg and grovel in front of my face to be let out and be saved and which mice I can flush in the eternal toilet for ever and ever.
Or I can just keep evil out of the cage, because I am real and can do something about it, even if I did not add the evil and it happened on it's own.

Yeah.

Everlasting torment is not in the bible. There is only life or death. Everlasting fire in the bible symbolizes complete destruction or death, not torment. Even Hell (or death, based on Hebrew Sheol and Greek Hades) is destroyed for all time. "And death and Hell were cast into the lake of fire." (Revelation 20:14) What????? Hell is cast into Hell????? What does that mean???

It's simple, the lake of fire is just what I said above. It is symbolic of destruction for all time. Hell is the grave or death. Death will be destroyed for all time, thus Hell is cast into the lake of fire. There is no such thing as everlasting torment.

a reply to: TheChrome

The only thing dying is the old man. The new man is all men.

As in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive, but each in his own order…

Then the Son will be subject to the Father and God will be all in all. 1 Cor 15

Just some thoughts on life and death, and especially the second death. Who holds the keys to death and hades?

When I am lifted up from the earth I will draw all people to myself.

He will swallow up death forever, the Lord will wipe away tears from all faces

Shalom

a reply to: zardust
Why did God let the demiurge usurp him? You asked me that question now I ask you.

Well there are a multiple different answers to this first question. Let's first assume that perhaps "God" (or YHWH (later Jesus)) is not good. Could that be a possibility? Perhaps a possibility gullible christians have not explored properly? Perhaps I've posed this earlier, but:

What reason is there for the animals to worship the farmer?

I think religious people needs to pay closer attention to the natural world and the "survival of the fittest", "eat or be eaten" model that exists in the natural world. Why shouldn't this be the principle that governs the whole system? Sad as it may be.

And shut up about your purity-claims, Jesus isn't pure just because christians claim he is. How insane are you guys, really, to claim he is so pure that his death was necessary to attone for every pious womans "sin"? Jesus was a # compared to many people I know (according to the Bible which he apparently LET be written in his name).

Christians are INSANE, I'm sorry.

So again, what reasons do the animals on a farm have to worship the farmer [OTHER THAN THE FARMERS OWN INTERESTS!]?

a reply to: sylvie

Is Yahweh the Supreme Creator or an Evil God?

A fictional character, and not a very well developed one at that. But hey, if thinking he's got you by the hand keeps you from jumping off a bridge in despair, I can live with ignoring your vices. Just don't run for office.

Hebrews 12:29 says "Our God is a consuming fire" and 1 John 4:8 says God is Love.

John baptized with Water for Repentance (Forgiveness) but he said Jesus will baptize by Fire , The Holy Spirit , Love.

It is not God's fault if people cannot handle his Fire of Love, just like it isn't the sun's fault if you forget your sun screen and go to the beach and get burnt up by the sunlight.

a reply to: zardust
Everything Jersus said (or supposedly) had been said befor. How do you reconcile his blathering about being a jew, if not in this context??

Jesus claimed he was a jew and had regard for the judaic faith (which is bogus). Hence HE, is bogus, since he at least had some part in being portrayed. Ahhhhh....sweet Jesus, huh? Let me see what I can do with my knife to the traitor.
Disregard the title, I'm not an atheist, but there are many valid points here:
www.youtube.com...

The answer is simple. The translation of the bible has been screwed with to rewrite the story
These guys proved it:

thechronicleproject.org...

It shows that Creator is not in charge of the planet, but it was legally stolen by the overseer of Creation, by getting Adam to put himself under the authority of the Overseer. That's the guy they translated as serpent. So Creator has no legal access to the planet which is why its so messed up.

Still think he owns it? Why did Jesus tell us that we had to command "Let your will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven".

If he owned it, he wouldn't need our permission. He needs people not willing to follow the overseer to daily allow him access.

Now you know why its so messed up and why the Bible makes him look so bad.

originally posted by: TheChrome
Everlasting torment is not in the bible. There is only life or death. Everlasting fire in the bible symbolizes complete destruction or death, not torment. Even Hell (or death, based on Hebrew Sheol and Greek Hades) is destroyed for all time. "And death and Hell were cast into the lake of fire." (Revelation 20:14) What????? Hell is cast into Hell????? What does that mean???

It's simple, the lake of fire is just what I said above. It is symbolic of destruction for all time. Hell is the grave or death. Death will be destroyed for all time, thus Hell is cast into the lake of fire. There is no such thing as everlasting torment.

It's probably safe to say that out of the 7 billion people alive today, less than 1 billion would successfully enter paradise. That means that god made 6 billion people just to throw them into hell. He knew before they were born what their fate would be, he knew they would fail to meet his standard, he knew that he would have to punish them for it, and he still brought them into existence for his own convenience.

That's a little cold. Actually, that's a lot cold. You would think it'd be kinder to pick the ones he knows for a fact will be the perfect little Christians, and bring only them into the world. Bypass the elimination round altogether, because he's god.

Is God good or evil?

Who is evil? If a president orders its military to invade a nation beased on a lie. And the people who serve in the military knows its a lie. WHo is doing the evil?

Why do we always blame the presiden for all the evil we do for him?
Why do we blame God for all the evil we do?