NorthEast IntelNet documentary: Morality of violent punishment~

reply to post by EMPIRE


Religious zeal is the same no matter what faith it is for. They may or may not have done any thing.

We may not ever know the actual or alleged crime/s, is it any different, probably not. Does that make it right, no.

It is never right, to violate another persons sanctity through force of violence.

Rapists and child abusers of all kinds excluded. In my opinion of course, those two kinds of people deserve what ever punishment the victim or victims family feels warranted.

But religious zealots of any faith who commit atrocities in the name of their faith, are wrong. It is wrong, and we as a species have endured more than enough blood shed due to religious differences.

It is BS, and every one knows it. We each, are free to beleive and practice what we will, so long, as it does not violate another.

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you....

So, that means those religious Jihadists want us, to chop their heads off because they are not beleivers of our faith?

I think not, it is that kind of BS that got our race into this messed up situation to begin with.

Your god vs my god is not different than my daddy can beat up your daddy imaturity. It is time we grew up as a species, and DREW THE LINE!

When, when will we as a species "Draw That Line?!"

reply to post by ADVISOR

When, when will we as a species "Draw That Line?!"

We won't.

Sorry, but we are vicious inhumane predators. Humans haven't been out of the trees long enough to quite understand that while spirituality is fine, it has it's place.

Until everyone acts out against this sort of behavior and somehow we as a collective species decide enough is enough, this sort of thing will continue.

Sadly, humanity probably won't survive to see the day that this sort of thing no longer happens.

Somehow, there is a finger pointing at Muslims in the OP - more in the quoted material than what he says. I find all atrocities horrendous personally, and as an American citizen, I am ashamed that we constantly aid and abet regimes and extremist groups with money, weapons etc. that continue such practices.
Choosing which type of horror is worse is not my cup of tea. The Soviet Union and its satellites were pretty bad in this respect. But how do we acquiesce in the fact that our leaders funded and aided Pinochet's Chile, Guatemala, where the majority lived in concentration camps and people could be torutred to death on the street merely for batting an eye at the policeman? Now we are allied to the monster leader of Uzbekistan... for a geopolitical and financial reason. Are Americans any cleaner - when we funded the most backwards regimes for decades simply for financial gains or or geopolitical advantages? While the Soviet Empire was running, we funded and trained those Islam extremists who are now our "enemies". Talk about the chicken coming home to roost...
And in this line of thinking, the colonial powers of the past - Britain and France particularly - are not one bit cleaner.
It was OK in Nazi Germany to talk about Communist Jews blowing up bridges and burning the German Parliament. Now it is OK to say that something is wrong with Muslims - even though over one and a half billion live on this planet and the vast majority have never committed extremist crimes... It was a fact in the thirties that many European terrorists were Communist and a lot of them - disproportionately so . came from Jewish families. The evidence linking Islam to their extremists is flimsy in comparison... and in proportion.
The good thing is our norms and standards would banish torture and public executions. But aren't we a bit hypocritical? When have we ever live up to that standard in modern history?
Then again - poisoning future populations for millions of years with radioactive dust - is not that a form of torture and execution?
I think we just do not see the consequences of our actions, believeing in our pure ideals.

reply to post by ADVISOR

Religious zeal is the same no matter what faith it is for. They may or may not have done any thing.

This is true, so I’m curious about these other vids you posted showing religious zeal. Do you mind linking me to those vids as I’m sure you’re unbiased and give everyone a fair shake...

We may not ever know the actual or alleged crime/s, is it any different, probably not. Does that make it right, no.

Yours is an illogical way of thinking. If we don’t know what crime was commited, we can’t say if the method was inappropriate. We’re talking about death here and if they have laws that say people should be executed for X, and when executing you must do Y with Z, who are YOU to say they are wrong?

It is never right, to violate another persons sanctity through force of violence.

I didn’t see the videos as a force of violence. I saw it as crime and punishment.

Rapists and child abusers of all kinds excluded. In my opinion of course, those two kinds of people deserve what ever punishment the victim or victims family feels warranted.

You can’t have it both ways. You want rapists and abusers to feel the worst possible horrors yet you are condemning the actions in the vid without even knowing what they did. For all we know they very well could have been rapists and child abusers.

But religious zealots of any faith who commit atrocities in the name of their faith, are wrong. It is wrong, and we as a species have endured more than enough blood shed due to religious differences.

Agreed now link me to the vids you have showing Christian fanatics blowing up places in America or shooting abortion doctors.

It is BS, and every one knows it. We each, are free to beleive and practice what we will, so long, as it does not violate another. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you....

Not everyone ascribes to this philosophy.

So, that means those religious Jihadists want us, to chop their heads off because they are not beleivers of our faith?

Some of them might. They might see it as martyrdom and totally embrace it.

I think not, it is that kind of BS that got our race into this messed up situation to begin with.

Got your race into this BS? What race are you and what do you mean by your statement?

Your god vs my god is not different than my daddy can beat up your daddy imaturity. It is time we grew up as a species, and DREW THE LINE!When, when will we as a species "Draw That Line?!"

I agree, but much of the problem doesn’t stem from that. It stems from “daddy likes me more than he likes you.”




[edit on 1-11-2009 by EMPIRE]

reply to post by whatukno


True, but don't forget we humans once believed the Earth was flat, and that every thing revolved around us, including the sun...

Perhaps, it is that kind of thinking, which will hinder our eventual growth as a species.

But, seeing the many (not all), members here and their stances, I have faith in my fellow (Hu)man. Because for me, that is all I need to keep trying.

Knowing that others are open minded enough to entertain thoughts and or ideas, that conflict with their own. Yet can peacefully and maturely discuss and exchange those thoughts and or ideas with out resorting to cavemanish & barbaric means.

We have come a long ways as a people to toss in the towel. I know others feel the same way. And, I know others do not, but we (us ATSers), are not going to extremes because of such, are we.

Originally posted by EMPIRE
reply to post by Dark Ghost

 

Did you know his motives? Moreover were you going to benefit from his motives? You're making it seem as if America went into this business arrangement with blinders on, and clearly this was not the case.

If it is required by law to perform a questionnaire on the person then I would do it first. It would be paranoid for me to assume that every person I sold a chainsaw to were psychopathic killers that intended to gruesomely murder people. If there was a recurring pattern of people who purchased my chainsaws and ended up cutting up other people, then that is a different story.

What you are failing to acknowledge in your attempt to highlight America as the villain is that videos such as these show that it is LAW and COMMON PRACTICE for people to be punished in these countries in these ways. It does not matter if countries under Sharia Law are receiving police batons and machetes from Russia, China, USA, UK or Australia. The issue is the mentality to use inhumane and backward forms of punishment upon people who live under a religious form of law.

[edit on 1/11/2009 by Dark Ghost]

Intolerance and violence today are not limited to Muslims, Christians are still burning witches.

Warning! Graphic!

www.liveleak.com...

or here

victim was gang-raped before being burnt alive, says priest

CLOSE [X]
Delhi, Oct 4 (IANS) Rajani Majhi, a 20-year-old Hindu, was gang-raped before being burnt alive by a mob at the church-run orphanage in Orissa's Bargarh district where she worked, says a senior priest. They mistook her for a Christian.

'I am willing to testify in any court of law,' T.V Peter, procurator of the Sambalpur diocese in the western part of the state, told IANS on phone.

www.liveleak.com...


[edit on 1-11-2009 by prof-rabbit]

reply to post by Dark Ghost

If it is required by law to perform a questionnaire on the person then I would do it first. It would be paranoid for me to assume that every person I sold a chainsaw to were psychopathic killers that intended to gruesomely murder people. If there was a recurring pattern of people who purchased my chainsaws and ended up cutting up other people, then that is a different story.

Now remember, the chainsaw analogy was your analogy. With that being said did America go into this blindly, not knowing what these people were capable of or were they fully aware? If they were fully aware that means there must have been a previous pattern, and if there was a previous pattern, why support them?

What you are failing to acknowledge in your attempt to highlight America as the villain is that videos such as these show that it is LAW and COMMON PRACTICE for people to be punished in these countries in these ways.

So? What you’re failing to acknowledge in your attempt to highlight America as the great savior, and these people as children of Satan, is the fact the videos show that it is LAW. Now STOP for a second. What is it? LAW?!?!?!? So who are YOU to dictate what THEIR laws should or shouldn’t be? If that is how they punish people so be it. If it was done in accordance to their laws and carried out appropriately under their court systems so be it.

It does not matter if countries under Sharia Law are receiving police batons and machetes from Russia, Iran, USA, UK or Australia. The issue is the mentality to use inhumane and backward forms of punishment upon people who live under a religious form of law.

See above.

EMPIRE

I did not post this thread to under go an inquisition by you, or the member previous to you.

Am I a hypocrite, yes. Who isn't?

But show me some one who does not feel rapists and child abusers/molesters deserve the worse form of punishment...

And I will show you an individual who doesn't, doesn't belong among us.

What race am I, I am of the human race.
How about you?

Since you asked (and I am guessing, you meant my ethnicity) I am of mixed Lebanese and Scandinavian decent. What does it matter, truely?

Trying to label me as Christian or Islamic, Athiest or monotheistic?
Non issue, same as race it doesnt matter, we are all people.

It is that exact, EXACT type of BS divisive mentality that divides us all.

Again, this thread is being derailed. You or any one else whom wants off topic answers fromme, please by all means U2U me, if your going to cause topic drift.

But, by all means if you feel your questions merit a public address start a new thread and invite me there for your inquisition.

I how ever insist upon staying on topic.
Also, for the record I am not offended, upset or bothered by you or any fellow ATSer for questioning. But it should not cause the topic of this thread to drift to a topic about me.

I don't go to your threads, on an inquisition to question your motivation for submitting topics you feel are relevent, do I?

The same is expected in return.

Thank you for careing enough, to voice your thoughts.

May we please, now continue with this or do you really want me to start multiple threads each highlighting how examples of horror exist in every culture? I mentioned it, if you are too lazy to search for the few occurances I didnt link to then fine. thats your laziness.

But I did lik to other examples, including US CIA renditions to Uzbekistan for torture, I feel that listing example has been done.

Please, read the whole thread or at least my replies which have in most already commented on what you and others presented.

I love you people, but dang nabit why so difficult?


(I know, I know, advisor makes him self into such a pretty painted target)

Originally posted by Mr.Hyde
reply to post by impressme

 

Would the act of committing others to death be any different if it were bombs being dropped from thousands of feet above?

Yes. Completely different.

Don't get me wrong, I don't condone dropping a bomb on anyone. But, at least here in the U.S. we have laws against cruel and unusual punishment.

It seems in radical Islam ... the punishment is unusual cruelty. And we don't bomb someone because they're infidels for not believing as we do.

You can spin that however you want. You can mention something about oil. You can bring up waterboarding. It won't make a bit of difference to me. The people in the video don't belong in a civilized society. I've been against these wars from the get go. You can search any of my posts on here. I'm sure I'll be back to myself tomorrow, but tonight after watching these videos, I hope were in Iraq and Afghanistan until everyone of the radical Islamics are dead.

reply to post by jeddun


I am replying to this guy - jeddun

wow, thanks for proving your ignorance to me. Dont think just because you read some quran, or got this info from god knows where, that you know what Islam is, or the history of it. I suggest you do a proper research about Islam, and the life of Muhammad, his message, and how the Quran was revealed to him. Each verse in the quran was revealed at different times and events. and some were revealed just before they were going to battle. you would know this if you study the history of the Quran, rather than make a fool of yourself and express your ignorant prejudice opinion.

Say what you want, I dont care. I know my faith more than you ever will. Allah in Arabic means - the one and only god worthy of worship. this moon god lunar nonsense you speak of is absolutely ridiculous and misunderstood. get your facts straight buddy. Dont just read out of context to start up an ignorant argument. Believe what you want. dont think just because you read about Islam or whatever you hear from others, means its true, or that you know it all now. get real..

And wether you like it or not, Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world. many priests, rabbais, christians, jews, buddists, atheists and others etc converted to Islam. almost half of the population of the world is Muslim.
gee I wonder how they converted...were they threatened with a sword to their neck to convert??? hahahah what a joke... you dont hear people being threatened to accept Islam or else off with your heads, do you?? God said in the quran, there is no compulsion in religion. we cant enforce anything on anyone! these verses that you picked, you need to know the meaning behind them, and when they were revealed, and what they actually mean...while it may sound like a bad verse, it means something totally different..seriously people like you need to learn to educate themselves thoroughly about what they make an argument about...

after the 9/11 incident, over 20-30000 Americans converted to Islam. geee i wonder....are they fools to do such a thing? what made them convert???
Its because they researched about Islam with an open mind and an open heart. unlike some people who just want to pick anything that doesnt sound right to them without knowing the story behind it, and make an ignorant argument of it.

ISLAM DENOUNCES TERRORISM
We dont support those extremists just as much as you dont.

To call Muhammad a mad man, is absolutely rude and disrespectful.
And to say the bible doesnt have any contradictions, then mate, you really need to educate yourself with a clean open mind and open heart, and not be one sided. I have nothing against christians or jews. But there are diffinately extremists from their sides.

ISLAM IS NOT YOUR ENEMY
its what the media, and the illuminati want you to believe.

I understand these clips that the OP showed everyone has disturbed those who saw it. But did we forget what your secret governments did on 9/11??
all types of fatalities happened during that never forgetful event. you cant compare beheading, to what happened on 9/11. The real terrorists are the ones wearing black suits.
Dont go bad mouthing and telling ignorant lies and claim them to be true. STUDY...you need to thoroughly study Islam before you can say any of what you said.

TO YOU be YOUR beliefs, and TO ME be MINE
end of story. reply and say what you want, I would be wasting my time replying back. come back when you have studied EVERYTHING about ISLAM, the inns and outs of it. Ive done my part. Believe and say what you want


peace

Originally posted by honkusbobo
No, no, no, no. A war is not what is going to defeat this sort of mindset. War reinforces the "clash of civilization" doctrine and the us vs. them mentality. The Muslims will fight back just as hard as we do. The real thing is to do nothing and Islam will burn itself out, as you will see happening in the rapidly modernizing Islamic states the world over.

As a former Muslim I concur. Even when I was one did I not even have that mindset. Nor do any of my family members who all are muslim. Its really quite a insanely small fraction of a percentage that do get duped into this sort of mentality. For the most part, everyone just wants to live their lives and be happy like everyone else.

reply to post by Mr.Hyde


I don't have a solution. Reformation would be a start.

We also have to consider the fact that the act or acts of crime are synonymous to us all, excluding race, nationality and religion.

Yes, However I don't think I could behead someone.
I highly doubt many members of this forum could either.

There must be a way to come up out of the barbarity of the dark ages, but honor killings are now becoming more prevalent in Europe, Canada, and the United States,

reply to post by yahya99


I would ask where these extremist get the notion this is acceptable?

Let me tell you, I know a Muslim American, who has lived here for thirty years, he recently bought an American 20 year old girl, for 75,000 dollars, his wife of many years was told she would be sent back overseas if she did not comply, he is secretly married to the girl.

Originally posted by EMPIRE
Have the guys in the vid done anything different from Christians and Jews who used the scriptures to exploit Africans?

Christianity has gone through many transitions, it is time for Islam to come into the 21 century,

Islam seems to be extreme in third world countries.



[edit on 103030p://bSunday2009 by Stormdancer777]

Originally posted by ADVISOR
EMPIRE

I did not post this thread to under go an inquisition by you, or the member previous to you.

So why exactly did you post this thread? To spread some type of information? To make your dreams or opinions a reality? I know you’re a mod and all but your posts are fit for the chopping block just like everyone else, so if you’re going to post something you should expect, and accept, so-called inquisitions.

Am I a hypocrite, yes. Who isn't?

Plenty of people aren’t hypocrites.

But show me some one who does not feel rapists and child abusers/molesters deserve the worse form of punishment...

Go to www.apa.org... and spend some time on the site.

And I will show you an individual who doesn't, doesn't belong among us.

See above, and not only are you a hypocrite (your words not mine), but you also endorse bias and discrimination when it suits your belief system. Why should these people not be amongst us? Because they believe in rehabilitation?

What race am I, I am of the human race. How about you?

So if you’re of the human race how is that punishment got our race into this so-called mess? Wouldn’t a rational person look at deviance or the things which usually cause deviance as the problem?

Since you asked (and I am guessing, you meant my ethnicity) I am of mixed Lebanese and Scandinavian decent. What does it matter, truely?

I asked because you said it, and I couldn’t make heads or tails of why you said it.

Trying to label me as Christian or Islamic, Athiest or monotheistic?
Non issue, same as race it doesnt matter, we are all people.

No, you said “our race”, so I wanted to know what race you were talking about and how the actions in the vid contribute to the problem.

It is that exact, EXACT type of BS divisive mentality that divides us all.

Again, I’m not the one who mentioned race, you did. Moreover, you speak of divisive mentality as if you’re the harbinger of truth, yet you admit to being a hypocrite and have single handedly attacked a group of people for no reason.

Again, this thread is being derailed. You or any one else whom wants off topic answers fromme, please by all means U2U me, if your going to cause topic drift.

So now when people ask you to stop showing bias the thread is being derailed? When people ask you about comments you made about race the thread is being derailed? I’m sorry but what you’re doing is downright wrong, and you need to look at your shortcomings and blatant bias before you accuse others of derailing threads and going off topic. Again, you, ADVISOR, mentioned race, so it is only logical that when a person does not understand a comment (that was so over the top that openly laughing at it would result in a ban or another -1,000 ATS points) that they ask for clarification or an explanation of the statement, which I did.

But, by all means if you feel your questions merit a public address start a new thread and invite me there for your inquisition.

You should have started a new thread, or at least explained why you made the statement. But see, I know exactly what it is you’re doing. It’s word jugglery and fallacies that you’re relying on and you’ll attempt to make it seem as if I’m off topic when you’re the one who made the initial statement. Moreover, you’ll have everyone high up the food chain siding with you because you’re a mod, but mods can be wrong, and you’re wrong on this one. I spent my time reading your thread, watching the video and said nothing to you until you quoted me. From then on you were fair game, you were fair game for making the thread, but I chose to not directly address, and you opened the doors for this exchange.

I how ever insist upon staying on topic.

If you insist on staying on topic stop introducing subject matter that has nothing to do with the thread, and if it does, at least give some insight as to why it does. Moreover, since you insist on staying on topic I have some questions you failed to address:

If we don’t know what crime was committed, we can’t say if the method was inappropriate. We’re talking about death here and if they have laws that say people should be executed for X, and when executing you must do Y with Z, who are YOU to say they are wrong?

Also, for the record I am not offended, upset or bothered by you or any fellow ATSer for questioning. But it should not cause the topic of this thread to drift to a topic about me.

Again, the only reason why this topic is about you is because you made it about you. Moreover, pointing out bias and hypocrisy is a good thing, as it fits in with the “deny ignorance” tagline.

I don't go to your threads, on an inquisition to question your motivation for submitting topics you feel are relevent, do I? The same is expected in return.
Thank you for careing enough, to voice your thoughts.

I’ve yet to make a thread here, and if I did, you have EVERY right as an ATS poster to post within the confines of ATS T&C and address me. More on this later.

May we please, now continue with this or do you really want me to start multiple threads each highlighting how examples of horror exist in every culture? I mentioned it, if you are too lazy to search for the few occurances I didnt link to then fine. thats your laziness.

No, I don’t want you to start multiple threads, that clearly isn’t what I asked. I asked for you to link me to vids you made that showed other religious groups committing atrocities. In other words, I’m asking you to stop promoting bias under the veil of denying ignorance and authority.

But I did lik to other examples, including US CIA renditions to Uzbekistan for torture, I feel that listing example has been done.

I read those, I read about the CIA giving the green light to boil people, etc. However, you seem to have a problem with people calling you on this great piece of propaganda, so I will refer back to my previous question: who are YOU to say they are wrong?

Please, read the whole thread or at least my replies which have in most already commented on what you and others presented.I love you people, but dang nabit why so difficult?:lol

I know, I know, advisor makes him self into such a pretty painted target)

I read your responses, and I’m glad you love us, but you are open to scrutiny and criticism just as everyone else. Moreover, as a result of being mod/admin, you are held to higher standards and callings, and providing answers to questions, clarifications etc come with the job. Finally, you made yourself a target. I didn’t quote you, I was actually going to avoid saying anything to you but you quoted me and that has led to this exchange.


[edit on 1-11-2009 by EMPIRE]

reply to post by Stormdancer777


Christianity has gone through so many transitions? What are these transitions? A poll that was recently conducted show a large percentage of Chrsitans believe Sodom and Gomorrah where married, so how much of a transition are we talking here? What you're doing and what others have done, is painted Islam in a bad light, and I'm not even a muslim but can still see it. It's as if people here are blaming the entire muslim world for these beheadings, yet when we have Christians and Jews benefiting financially from OPPRESSION, in the 21st century, people turn a blind eye.

reply to post by EMPIRE



Emp

Would you be protesting so loud if they happened to be of any other faith? I highly doubt you would be. Now I know from our previous discussions that you have an agenda and hatred for the US and are planning to leave.

Whats wrong with showing some truth of how some people in certain parts of the world behave? I don't remember seeing you protest when the Footage of the young Marine was shown dying in Afghanistan.

reply to post by SLAYER69

Would you be protesting so loud if they happened to be of any other faith?

Yes I would. I’m not a muslim and aside from possibly getting myself in hotwater, there is nothing I gain by “protesting loudly” (which is a comical claim, but I won’t go there.)

I highly doubt you would be.

There is a thread here containing a video of a Christian pastor making comments about homosexuals. I defended the pastor on the grounds that we did not have the entire clip and that his words may have been taken out of context. Moreover, I pointed out the fact that the website hosting the clip openly stated that they attack religions, which made them openly bias. So yes, I defend those who need to be defended when I see they aren’t getting a fair shake, and if you want you can click on my name and hopefully the thread is still up.

Now I know from our previous discussions that you have an agenda and hatred for the US and are planning to leave.

You’re highly misinformed. I never said I hated America. I openly stated I have no feelings for America, no love, no hate, and that I do plan on leaving. However, your attempts at somehow proving I’m motivated by hate is irresponsible and downright laughable.

Whats wrong with showing some truth of how some people in certain parts of the world behave? I don't remember seeing you protest when the Footage of the young Marine was shown dying in Afghanistan.

There is nothing wrong with showing the truth, but there is something wrong with bias and passing propaganda as truth. In addition, you didn’t see me protesting footage of the Marine shown dying in Afghanistan because I didn’t see the post/thread.


Here you go slayer:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

[edit on 1-11-2009 by EMPIRE]

Originally posted by EMPIRE

Now remember, the chainsaw analogy was your analogy. With that being said did America go into this blindly, not knowing what these people were capable of or were they fully aware? If they were fully aware that means there must have been a previous pattern, and if there was a previous pattern, why support them?

Yes I did use the chainsaw analogy. Do remember that it is called an analogy for a reason. Keeping with this analogy, I would definitely NOT sell chainsaws to people who have used my chainsaws to harm and murder my employees. Just like Insurgents in Iraq and Afghanistan today - a small group whom may have received funding and aid from Western agencies in the past - I would no longer classify them as friends and or allies if they attacked people who work in my company.

So? What you’re failing to acknowledge in your attempt to highlight America as the great savior, and these people as children of Satan, is the fact the videos show that it is LAW. Now STOP for a second. What is it? LAW?!?!?!? So who are YOU to dictate what THEIR laws should or shouldn’t be? If that is how they punish people so be it. If it was done in accordance to their laws and carried out appropriately under their court systems so be it.

Not trying to highlight America or the West as a saviour of any kind. The USA has a lot of dirt in its history, as well as allies such as Britain. So do other countries that never receive the same media attention for when they make mistakes and committee injustices. It seems that the USA is always given the moral low-ground when citizens of that country comment on any issue about foreign nations.

I agree that the laws of another country is their own business and those living outside those countries should respect their respective laws. But there is definitely a difference with Sharia Law. People from predominantly Sharia governed countries are coming to the West and demanding that we adopt their laws and customs.

Notice how people in the West rarely criticise countries like Singapore that are very hard on crime also but not as barbaric. I wonder why this is?

[edit on 1/11/2009 by Dark Ghost]