You do NOT own your car/truck/SUV!

reply to post by Historical-Mozart


Per my original post seen below :

Investigation of Facts Is Pertinent To Any Claims Made Within This Thread

I am going to call this claim of not owning your vehicle bogus completely, albeit I am not claiming the original poster had this as the intent, content, or context, it may in fact be erroneous due to lack of knowledge of the law.

Based upon my knowledge of law, not a professional here folks, but knowing the law nonetheless, you are in fact an owner of your vehicle at the time of purchase, but if you have a loan the bank is in fact the technical owner pursuant to your paying off the loan, they are in fact the lien-holder.

This makes the person with the loan a lienee as seen below :

Quote from Wikipedia : Lien

In law, a lien is a form of security interest granted over an item of property to secure the payment of a debt or performance of some other obligation.

The owner of the property, who grants the lien, is referred to as the lienor and the person who has the benefit of the lien is referred to as the lienee.

As per my original post, ATS'ers, consult an actual lawyer, they will consult with you for free.

The website provided could very well be a form of entrapment.

Quote from : Entrapment

Entrapment is the act of a law enforcement agent inducing a person to commit an offense which would be illegal and the person would otherwise have been unlikely to commit.

In many jurisdictions, entrapment is a possible defense against criminal guilt.

To the original poster all I have to say is no harm no foul, but to the owner of the website quoted, it is at best most likely a con artist trying to pull one over on people, at worst it is some type of stupid form of entrapment laced with a convoluted form of misdirection through pushing people into commiting illegal acts through potential agent provocateur style processes.

Hoist the Flag : False Flags, Agent Provocateurs, and Black Box Operations

[edit on 24-10-2009 by SpartanKingLeonidas]

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


Not a single dadgum piece of that addresses what happens when Joe Blow wanders into the local dealership and buys a car, SUV, van, whatever......and it fails to mention the instances of retail sales that are in fact accompanied with an MCO/MSO. It fails to address the instance of a kit builder being issued an MCO/MSO for the vehicle they have built from the ground up. Plenty of private citizens hold the MCO/MSO for their vehicles.

The state issues a title, on the front of which states, "owner"......

The transfer of said title (read: ownership) to another individual, or even as a trade, cannot be legally completed until the "owner" signs, and prints, their full name on the appropriate lines.

Thanks for posting.

reply to post by MrPenny


I have also spun about 10,000 finance contracts over the years and as a Finance and Insurance Manager completed the paper work with customers on that many sales.

The cases you mention of plenty of people ending up with MSO's are in fact probably less than 1/10th of 1% of the population. Plenty of people if you are having them over for a barbeque hardly any people in the grand scheme of things, and most of them are likey in fact kit cars where the person became the manufacture of the vehicle.

The reality is that the State owns all the vehicles unless you posses the MSO. Very few private citizens posses an MSO and under no circumstances has any dealership I have worked for and I have worked for a bunch (all GM, Pontiac, Buick, Cadillac, GMC, Chevrolet) ever awarded a private retail customer an MSO. It would cut us out of one of the main profit centers for the dealership which is the very high fee for processing the title work.

Yes a very few select private individuals own MSO's along with their vehicles but as you have so wonderfully pointed out, most of those people don't even recognize the significance of the document.

The reality is that Constitutionally the State nor the Federal Government has a right to limit or impede your movement from state to state. Licenses limit and impede, speed limits limit and impede. The only way that the Corporate Government can get beyond the constitution and create illegal codes is by getting citizens to contractually agree with them in a case by case basis. Your Driver's License is one such Contract, read all the things you are Contracting to that have nothing to do with driving a car the next time you renew or get a license and you will be amazed just what all you are being asked to agree to in exchange for the privelage to drive, even though the Constitution has no such restriction.

The same is true with your registration and the Title work that you gift to the state. The only thing those signatures do that you refer to is who has to pay the state to continue to use the property so that the state can make sure it gets paid.

Ultimately you have been sold as has everyone else a deeply and well entrenched lie which basically makes you identify and side with the criminal and thief in the guise of benovelent sheeps clothing even though it is a taxing and robbing predator that takes your freedoms, rights and money.

You are quick to cast dispersions on those who want to live free and responsibly and be responsible, and quick to defend corporate and government opression, theivary and wholesale and wanton violations of the constitution.

It's called denial friend.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
The cases you mention of plenty of people ending up with MSO's are in fact probably less than 1/10th of 1% of the population.

So those are insignificant? Those numbers would become much more significant if we were talking about a petition clamoring for the president's long form birth certificate....wouldn't it?

Pick and choose your way through life.....

It bears repeating that you acknowledge some portion of the population has received an MSO/MCO for their vehicles.

'Nuff said.

It is strange that some find it hard to swallow not 'legally owning' their own car they traded FRN's for, but look at the certificate of title. The STATE is at the top, they own it.
As well the name on the birth certificate. We do not own our name.We are not a name, We use a name. A Tool.

Of course, most of us ACT as if we are the 'owner',(me me mine more) making us surety for any contracts entered into using the name, like the car thing. When in fact
legally the state does own the title, we maintain usufruct rights, having given charge to the transaction. The state holds the asset value. You use the car. Win/win.

If we show the facts, legally admissible of course, like a title with the state as issuer; the birth certificate; and we would be the grantor to the name in this trust relationship.

The agents of the offices of state are the trustees.

It takes looking at the idea from the inside out to see how the ownership angle can be worked as a plus.
If the state owns the name and the title to it, they are surety for any debt incurred in that name. And we are the energy source that commerce needs to operate but are not
really intended, by legislation, to be the name. It actually is built in the system to 'pay' if you can call it that, our debts for us. The state covers the bill gets the asset value on the books and no private debt. Since all names are public record.


[edit on 24-10-2009 by human8]

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

You are quick to cast dispersions on those who want to live free and responsibly...

If you're going to use a word, you might want to make sure you actually know what it means if you want to make sense.

Dispersion:
The act or process of dispersing.

Dispersing:
a. To drive off or scatter in different directions.
b. To strew or distribute widely.

Presumably you actually meant aspersions.

apersion:
a disparaging or malicious remark; slanderous accusation (esp in the phrase cast aspersions (on))

Deny ignorance friend.

reply to post by erwalker


To drive off or scatter in different directions those who want to live free and responsibly

mskes perfectly good sense thanks for supporting protos arguement and negating yours

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
You are quick to cast dispersions on those who want to live free and responsibly and be responsible,

Well then, I cast "aspersions" on myself....because I do in fact live free and responsibly. If you feel you don't....that's solely your problem, and spouting off what you proclaim to be "fact" and "reality" is no more than you putting words to the fears, doubts, and lack of responsibility that apparently drive your angst.

Have you not noticed how much of a minority your opinion constitutes? Does that not offer some hint to you? I daresay there are 100's of millions of persons in this country with the conviction that they are living free and responsibly.

Yet you, ProtoplasmicTraveler.....are the sole voice for what is wrong with our current legal system. Don't take that wrong....I'm not discounting the myriad of problems this republic is suffering from....but when I encounter a person whose ego is inflated enough to proclaim that, "I know more about the process than most"....my hackles rise.

Your descriptions of the problems and the "solutions" hearken back to a level of fundamentalism that is counter to the concept of advancing a society. And I fear it isn't a particularly secular fundamentalism to boot.

reply to post by stilltrying


"stilltrying"......makes hilarious sense.

'Cause you still are. Your post makes zero sense.

reply to post by stilltrying


Sorry, but you can't "cast dispersions".

Keep doing what your nom de plume claims you are doing.

reply to post by erwalker


Yet here you are trying to debate and stop members who know that DEFACTO govt is taking place. Once again, trying to disperse others who may find this thread educational and truthful but yet they have to deal with those who wish to subvert it.

reply to post by erwalker


Actually my friend you are only partially correct.

The word dates from the 14th century and the root word is Diaspora.

Commonly considered to be an attempt to drive one from their ancestral home and to disperse them.

This is in fact what the poster who casting aspersions on my character was trying to do in casting them.

To drive me from posting home on ATS to send me into Diaspora.

For some reason as I pointed out many people who don't have a valid or cognizant or coherent argument on a post and a topic that they can formulate and enunciate will instead try to drive the poster they don't agree with into Diaspora.

To apply condescending forms of peer pressure to try to convince the poster they don't agree with that they should not be posting and should not be on the thread and should not be on the forum.

They are casting dispersions in an attempt to drive the poster into Diaspora.

Like the fact that the State owns your vehicle and all you own is a certificate of title some things are hard for some people to conceptualize and rationalize because of a limited frame of references and a predisposition to reject things that contradict those notions that have been deeply instilled in them by governmental and religious and familiar institutions.

Often people who have been subjected successfully to these insidious forms of rigid mind control can’t ascertain why they are rejecting a truthful argument and supposition other than it offends their conditioning and causes them concern that their programming could be faulty.

This usually leads to a reparative loop where they go into deep denial and latch on desperately to off topic tidbits as a means to keep their programming from going into systemic melt down.

It’s called denial friend.

The thread is about the fact that the state owns your vehicle! Not individual reading comprehension and vocabulary skills.

If I didn’t know better I would swear your comments are designed to drive me into Diaspora.

Thanks for posting and I want you to know I always welcome your and anyone's posts.

[edit on 24/10/09 by ProtoplasmicTraveler]

reply to post by MrPenny


My friend almost every pivotal thinker that has left a monumental impact and legacy on the world was a voice in the wilderness.

Ever heard of John the Baptist? Not a popular guy really, he was beheaded, but his ideas took hold none the less.

Ever heard of Christopher Columbus, swore up and down the earth was round when everyone thought it was flat. Not a real popular guy either.

Louis Pastuer, Gallileo just to name a few others.

Of course Einstein Sr. High School doesn't graduate too many Einsteins.

Really in fact none at all.

Theory of relativety? What the heck is that.

Jesus, they crucified him.

Caesar stabbed to death on the Senate floor!

We all know these peoples name for one reason. They weren't like every one else who lived in their day. They were independent and radical free thinkers and visionaries who just weren't in the minority but the extreme minority.

Yet their personal courage and convictions and discipline opened doors for all of humanity to later walk through and touched the lives of countless millions of people for generations to come.

Some people advocate for the lowest possible common denominator.

Some people advocate for the highest possible common denominator.

And some people my friend, boldly dare to go where no man has gone before and become the stuff that legends are made of.

Maybe you enjoy the fact that the state will allow you to have the MSO on a kit car that has no intrinsic value to them or any bank because it can not meet product liability standards and the sole manufacture of the sole vehicle doesn't have deep enough pockets to pay out a huge sum in law suits and there is no point for the State to assume that isolated risk by assuming ownership of an unvalued, undervalued, singular commodity.

Maybe it's enough for you that the state will allow you to own something substandard that you made yourself!

The fact remains though that the State owns all vehicles, and all you own is a Certificate of Title which is actually just a liability and not an asset.

Selling that car? The state is always right there to collect a tax on the sale!

What are you actually being paid for? Your contract to posses said vehicle to use it under carefully perscribed and regulated conditions and to pay taxes and fees on it.

Here is another name you might have heard that wasn't all that popular in his day either...Spartacus.

Thanks for posting.

[edit on 24/10/09 by ProtoplasmicTraveler]

This is pathetic. That means your job isn't your job, your income isn't your income - all because of taxes.
My friend, if paying taxes to have the things you have (roads would be a good example), get out of town and go live like a bum on the street because in your interpretation, THAT would be freedom!

[edit on 24-10-2009 by daggyz]

reply to post by daggyz


The road I grew up in rural Pennsylvania was hewn by hand by my Grandfather and his friends.

The roads that connected it were hewn by hand by the farmers who lived off of it. They would often pay out of their own pockets to repave those roads from time to time and perform the labor themselves.

They were public roads and every now and then when the government wanted to maintain the roads they would, it just wasn't often enough to keep human beings and vehicles safe.

Now if the only thing you need from government is a road, and often it is the only thing most of us need from government, what do you think costs less, some tar and asphalt and gravel, or paying 28% to 42% of your wages your entire life?

You do the math, I already have.

Now lets talk about your wages, paid in U.S. Dollars a defacto instrument of debt fiat currency.

Wait instrument of debt? That doesn't sound like it has any intrinsic value?

Correct it doesn't as it is not attached to any precious metal or commodity but simply has a 'percieved' 'fluctuating' value!

Fluctuating that sounds like even that perceived value goes up and down?

Sure does since it's value is only what people imagine, because it's not attached to anything real.

Where does your money come from? The Federal Reserve. What is the Federal Reserve? A foreign owned not for profit religious corporation!

The heck you say. I kid you not, registered in the State of Deleware famous for it's lax corporate laws that help sheild corporate ownership and registered as a religious not for profit corporation.

Maybe that's why your currency attached to nothing of value is emblazoned with "In God we Trust".

The reality is the U.S. Dollar is a worthless piece of paper no different than monopoly money.

It's part of a religious ceremony and can be used for goods and services at the Corporate Company Store.

The real wealth of course is human beings, which is why we are all serialized and identified and taxed. Taxed not as a means to enrich the government but taxed as in we won't over tax the Corporate Company Store because a portion of our ceremonial currency that is just script has to be surrendered to the State that owns us.

Good slaves are rewarded with more of this script. Bad slaves are rewarded with less.

The real wealth is the goods and the services that the slaves produce and that's why the State holds title and keeps title to everything of intrinsic value and uses a taxation system to remove you from it if you by chance turn out to be a bad or unproductive or luckless hapless slave.

I agree it's very disturbing and hard to digest, but while you are thinking about it, try to find what if anything that dollar of yours is attached to that is stable and has a value of it's own.

Good luck on that.

Thanks for posting.



[edit on 24/10/09 by ProtoplasmicTraveler]

[edit on 25/10/09 by ProtoplasmicTraveler]

Sure, I own my van. I ordered it direct from Japan.

See, they have a special relationship between the domestic car dealerships and the government -- their annual registration gets more and more prohibitive, thus inclining one toward a new car, rather than maintaining an ever-rising vig on an older auto.

Soooooo, I paid about USD $900 for a '94 van with 30,000 miles on it. I paid the shipping -- about USD $1500, which included insurance.

It got here. I paid for the local registration, insurance, plates. It's mine. There are many like it, but this one is mine. Without me, my van is nothing.......

Talking freedom is Dangerous

www.youtube.com...

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
Maybe you enjoy the fact that the state will allow you to have the MSO on a kit car that has no intrinsic value to them or any bank

You can't have it both ways.....from earlier in the thread;

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
An MCO is and basically functions like a Bearer Bond an anonymous instrument of ownership that the document itself establishes who ever physically posseses it as owner.

Hey proto....it looks like you're talking out of both sides of your keyboard. It isn't very flattering.

These two snippets, taken alone this way, are odd enough...but when read in their respective contexts....appear to be 180 deg. apart. Can you explain...not quite so long-winded as usual....how these two comments can have equal standing in your world view?

reply to post by MrPenny


I don't see how one statement contradicts the other.

One statement says an MSO denotes ownership.

The other statement says that an MSO of a kit car denotes ownership of the kit car, but kit cars have no value to the state.

Nothing contradictory about that at all.

Here is why a kit car has no value to banks or the government.

1. It can not meet product liability standards. You don't have to meet any of the State and Federal Safety and Environmental Guidelines with your kit car. You are under no CAFE Restrictions because you are not a Mass Manufacturer but a single manufacturer.

2. Your kit car is a knock off of a real car. Yes you too can own a fake Louis Vutton hand bag but it's a fake. It looks just like the real thing and functions like the real thing, but it's not the real thing, it's a knock off a more cheaply produced imitation. An original Ford Shelby Cobra is worth hundreds of thousands of dollars, a kit car Shelby Cobra is worth the price of the kit less wear and tear. Your kit car will never appreciate in value an Original Shebly Cobra will.

3. If your Kit Car is purchased by someone after you build it and the front seat becomes unnatached and causes an accident the only person who can be sued for that defect is you! You don't have GM or Ford's money, you have your money and the state already has a good portion of your money anyway.

The State simply put does not want to own your cheap imitation knock off of a genuine article, because the state doesn't want to assume liability for it. So they let you keep the MSO isn't that nice of them.

I have no idea where you see a contradiction in those two statements.

Here is a thought, why not try contributing something of substance to the thread of your own, instead of trying to deminish the substance of what others post?

The State owns all vehicles except those held by the Federal Government and select large corporations and WORTHLESS kit cars.

That make you happy?

S&F

Great work!

i am glad that not everybody is oblivious to the state of our current reality and how we are manipulated.