You do NOT own your car/truck/SUV!

You do NOT own your car/truck/SUV!


Many of you "own" cars, trucks, SUVs and other things that are registered with the respective state DMVs, but guess what -- you do NOT own your car, truck, SUV or anything that is registered with a DMV with which you get this BS "Certificate of Title". Seen that thing before? It used to be called a "pink slip", but now it is usually a multi-colored piece of paper that "proves" your ownership. But you do NOT own it! And why is that? Read on.


First of all, the bare basics about the MSO:

en.wikipedia.org...


The MSO is defined as:

Manufacturer's Statement of Origin [ M.S.O.] -
A new vehicle certificate which is submitted to the local DMV in exchange for a title of ownership

I got the quote from this site...

www.svpvril.com...

...that is terribly organized, hard to read and long, but it has an interesting series of letters that were exchanged from this well-informed dude with the Missouri DMV. If you can put up with it, it's worth the read. The way that it was organized really bugged me, though. Ugh.


An MSO is a document of ownership, beit a car, boat, motorcycle, whatever and, not only is it proof of your ownership of your vehicle [sic] or vessel [sic], it is also an allodial title, which means that you owe NO ONE any sort of fee, tax, registration, or anything owed to the state whatsoever. You OWN it.


It's ALL yours. Nobody can take it away from you, except a thief, which is theft... and that's exactly what the state is doing, as they have stolen your vehicle/vessel legally and their price is a yearly fee or tax that you have to pay for something that is supposed to be yours.


Now, let's take a look at the word, "allodial":

Allodial title is a concept in some systems of property law. It describes a situation where real property (land, buildings and fixtures) is owned free and clear of any encumbrances, including liens, mortgages and tax obligations. Allodial title is inalienable, in that it cannot be taken by any operation of law for any reason whatsoever.

From: en.wikipedia.org...


And from this site...

www.hiddenmysteries.org...

... is the quote below:

Tennessee Department of Revenue Operations Supervisor Denise
Rottero Told Judge Greer how Tennessee's auto registration process works.

The process begins with the "surrender" of the Manufacturer's
Statement of Origin (MSO) by the auto dealer to the Department of
Revenue in exchange for a Certificate of Title.

Asked if a Manufacturer's Statement of Origin is proof of ownership, legal title to
the automobile, Ms. Rottero said, "Yes"


"Are you telling me that ownership of an automobile must be
surrendered to the State before it can be registered?" she was asked.

"Surrender title, yes'" Rottero said.


The certificate of title to your automobile is Not title, it's merely
evidence that title exists. Your car's legal TITLE is the MSO, which the
dealer surrendered to the State. Ms. Rottero said the MSO is put on
microfilm for permanent keeping, the original is destroyed.

After the trial, spectators expressed shock that their personal
automobiles were actually owned by the state. "No wonder
state law officers stop people for no reason!" said a housewife. "If your
car's got a Tennessee plate, it's theirs, and they can do anything they
like to you!"

That's the law, but it's voluntary. No one but Judge Greer
had dared say that if you don't surrender your car to the state in
exchange for plates, you go to jail.

For years, I've fought the system in the courts and have tried to challenge them on the grounds that what they are doing is a fraud. It is, but the state just does not give a damn, as it is an excellent money-maker for them and SO few people know about it.


I thought of trying to go through the arduous process of gaining allodial title to my truck, but, even if I did succeed with this, I would have to remove the license plate and you can imagine how many times I'd be pulled over by cops over and over again and I'd have to defend myself on the road by engaging in an exchange of words that conveys to them that:

1) I'm not consenting to any conversation with them; and,

2) I immediately ask them who they are and for them to fully identify themselves and they can't, of course, so this short "conversation" usually brings in a higher-up, usually an older cop, who has seen it all, and I'd do the same thing over with the older cop and I've succeeded a few times with the older cop knowing that I was right, so he'd let me go.


But, too frequently, the younger cops just don't give a damn and they'd aggressively pull me out of my truck, slam me down, handcuff me, take me to the damn jail, tow my truck -- it is hell, pure hell to go through that. After two times of that crap, I quit and chose to hide in plain sight, paying my little fees to the damn state, making sure that I have insurance, etc.


So I'm just letting you know WHY you have to pay the state the registration fees, taxes, etc and the fact that you do NOT own your vehicle![sic]


The current system of "government" in the US sucks and the vast majority of the people who live in America just don't know how much of slaves that they are to the current system.


The fraud and conspiracy by the state governments and the respective courts committed against the American public is a massive conspiracy that should be exposed and stopped, somehow.




[edit on 22-10-2009 by Historical-Mozart]

I agree. You don't own your car, unless it's unregistered or it never leaves private property. The only real purpose of that pink slip is to track who's responsible, who is liable, for that vehicle, so the state can get your money.

Thanks for bringing this up and sharing your experience with local law enforcement.

[edit on 22-10-2009 by John_Brown]

Originally posted by Historical-Mozart
You do NOT own your car/truck/SUV!

The fraud and conspiracy by the state governments and the respective courts committed against the American public is a massive conspiracy that should be exposed and stopped, somehow.

Well that is what the Oath Keepers are for. Im looking forward to replies from the members that are familar with the laws. Good post of another example of a goverment gone wild.

star for yousa

reply to post by Historical-Mozart


AMEN.

This is true of everything that we have. We own NOT ONE MATERIAL THING anywhere. There is no such thing as freedom. The Declaration of Independence is a farce. We do not have the right to life, liberty, or the pursuit of happiness. If we had the right to life, then we wouldn't be forced to undergo physicals for jobs, jobs that we require to make money, which we require to trade, which is needed for all the people to be able to give eachother services such as milk for furniture and what-not. If we had the right to liberty, then we wouldn't be required to do give up our lives for life, which is supposed to be an inalienable right. If we had the right to the pursuit of happiness, then we wouldn't be required to fight for our liberty, which is a very depressing war.

I would like to point out that crime started from jealousy. NOT NEED. Most crime that happens these days is due to a NEED for something. This is caused by our pathetic government. We CANNOT and WILL NOT eradicate crime. But we sure as hell can reinforce the original laws which made it possible to minimize crime back to the jealous level so that everyone doesn't have to suffer for little johnny's stupid ego-trips.

Originally posted by John_Brown
I agree. You don't own your car, unless it's unregistered or it never leaves private property. The only real purpose of that pink slip is to track who's responsible, who is liable, for that vehicle, so the state can get your money.

Boy ain't that the truth. I recently bought a used truck from another state ....and before I could get it tagged they told me to get it inspected. So I went to the local Highway Patrol office to get my inspection sticker....but all I got was a bill for 10 dollars (which used to be free) and all they checked was my VIN number....the officer said it was to make sure it wasen't stolen....he never looked at anything else.

Originally posted by Historical-Mozart
You do NOT own your car/truck/SUV!

Yeah, you do, if you pay for it.

First off, Allodial title is not for personal property.

The MCO or MSO is the manufacturer's papers. Shows when and where the vehicle was built and if tariffs involved if imported. When you buy the car/truck/trailer, the MSO is turned in and you get a title in your name. If it wasn't done this way, there would be nothing to show you owned the vehicle.

I tried to read that web page with Mr. McCarthy's letters. I couldn't read it all the way through because he was being such an idiot. But, it was good for laugh when I read the response from the fella at the Motor Vehicle Bureau

Thank you for the compliment on my "candid" response to your previous letter of February 10, 1986. Please allow me one observation. The eight months you have spent in this quest could have been shortened considerably had you refrained from convoluted analogies and, in your own words, "gotten to the point a bit sooner with more honest and complete answers".

Please feel free to use any of my responses as "material evidence" when you are arrested for driving an improperly registered motor vehicle in the State of Missouri. Although the arresting officer and the court may find my letters instructional, those officers will, no doubt, quickly come to the point with an "honest and complete" request to see your Missouri certificate of registration. Of course, we know that you will not have one, because you have spent eight months gathering valuable "material evidence" from my office in order to stall application for Missouri title and registration documents. You may discover at that point that Missouri State Highway Patrol troopers are also quite "candid".

Now that's classic.

Personal property tax is the ball and chain that keeps people in the system. If you bought a piece of property and decided to live off the grid and out of the system you would be mistaken. Where are you going to get the cash needed to pay the taxes? Gotcha.

You would have no choice but to sell some of the crops you raise in order to pay the state. It takes your labor to raise those crops so in a sense your still a slave to the system. There is no escape unless you find a country that has no personal property tax.

I've got one better for you. And this applies to all common law system, and most First World legal systems.

Did you know that your parents are not your parents, and that your children's parents are not you?

You are merely a parent in location, acting on behalf of the state who is the real parent. Real law. Europe. UK. Canada. New Zealand. Australia. USA. Probably others, but I have never bothered to see how many more countries have this legal concept of society as the real parent and biological parents merely representatives on the ground.

I can go one better - that whole Schiavo incident was not about life. I was about having the state set precedent to step in between two spouses. Essentially setting up a precedent to make marriage mean the same thing. That the state can nullify your spousal privilege and assert itself as your real spouse. That when you marry, you marry the state and that your partner becomes a representative of the state. If Gov. Bush had succeed with that with all of the right-wing cheering him on, he would have changed the entire meaning of marriage far more than any gay marriage would have.

The irony in all of this is that it surprises some of you that this is so ...

"Ownership" is by definition an intellectual and conceptual contrivance, as such it is extremely malleable to suit the needs of all interested parties wishing to control it.

Or do you you actually think you "own" anything?

material possessions are just plain stupid to cator to and obsess over in the long run anyway, except for all pragmatic intents and purposes.

[edit on 22-10-2009 by thaknobodi]

[edit on 22-10-2009 by thaknobodi]

Originally posted by Pauligirl

Originally posted by Historical-Mozart
You do NOT own your car/truck/SUV!

Yeah, you do, if you pay for it.

Say what? What about the MSO, then? It is very clear that you do not own it if you have a "Certificate of Title" in place of the MSO. Period.

First off, Allodial title is not for personal property.

It isn't? Then how to you explain the existence of MSOs for the vehicles [sic], vessels [sic]? Those things ARE personal property. I have bought canoes that did not need to be registered and, guess what, I got the MSO right with it -- and that's when I first started to dig into this huge MSO conspiracy that had defrauded and ripped off so many American slaves.


Now, let's take a look at "personal property"...

en.wikipedia.org...

Personal property, roughly speaking, is private property that is movable, as opposed to real property or real estate.

In the common law systems personal property may also be called chattels or personalty.

In the civil law systems personal property is often called movable property or movables - any property that can be moved from one location to another

The underlining is mine.


A vehicle [sic] can be moved from one place to another; it comes with a MSO; therefore, it IS personal property and it can be own allodially -- IF you don't lose the MSO and if the state does not commit fraud by giving you the bullshiat "Certificate of Title".


So, I'm sorry, Pauligirl, vehicles [sic] ARE personal property.

The MCO or MSO is the manufacturer's papers. Shows when and where the vehicle was built and if tariffs involved if imported. When you buy the car/truck/trailer, the MSO is turned in and you get a title in your name. If it wasn't done this way, there would be nothing to show you owned the vehicle.

Yes, the MSO does denote location of manufacturing, etc, but it ALSO is the true and only proof of ownership of the vehicle [sic]. The "Certificate of Title" does not mean jack.

I tried to read that web page with Mr. McCarthy's letters. I couldn't read it all the way through because he was being such an idiot.

Yes, I couldn't get through it either and he had a bad, sloppy approach to this whole matter, I agree. He had the right idea, but his whole approach of how to deal with the state was very sloppy.


But the facts are facts:

1) "Certificate of Title" is NOT true ownership. Prove to me that it is and I'll eat my words.

2) MSO IS true ownership. Period.


I've been in this field of legal/law research for too many years to be mistaken on this matter and I'm 100% sure that I'm not mistaken with the points that I have made in this matter. I've talked to a number of people who were deeply experienced in this matter and they all concur totally.

Originally posted by Aeons
Did you know that your parents are not your parents, and that your children's parents are not you?

You are merely a parent in location, acting on behalf of the state who is the real parent. Real law. Europe. UK. Canada. New Zealand. Australia. USA. Probably others, but I have never bothered to see how many more countries have this legal concept of society as the real parent and biological parents merely representatives on the ground.

Yes, this is connected to the "Birth Certificate" issue, which is a whole 'nuther matter for another thread -- and I'm sure that it's been covered here -- but it's for another thread.


But, yes, the common connection between the "Birth Certificate" fraud and the "Certificate of Title" fraud is the state. The state is the true criminal here. Pox on the damn state.

Sorry, but you are wrong on this one. Go back and read what I wrote and your quote from wiki: "Allodial title is a concept in some systems of property law. It describes a situation where real property

See the word "real"? Means land and what ever is permanently attached to the land. Vehicles are personal property, I never said they weren't. Allodial title will never attach to personal property.
A MSO/ MCO is for personal property--cars, trucks, boats, mobile homes(until they are permanently affixed to land)--as you said "movable".

Allodial title is on land only, and it's rare. I think there are only two states that recognize it. I've done real estate for a law office for 21 years and I've never see it here in NC.

seems to me thats pretty obvious

maybe its because of all the problems ive had with the dmv

but bottom line

we are NOT free to go and come as we please,

we are NOT free to travel

nor are we free to own anything without fear of losing that item


there isnt anything this government cant do to you

many threads on ats try to state that there are things that you can do, or freedoms that you have

but from personal experience ive recently learned that everything on ats is nothing more then the same type of media propaganda we see and complain about when it comes to the msm


its all truly sad and disappointing

This is true of a house, land, etc.. As I recall this is a result of the US bankruptcy in the 1930s. Entitled or a title to something is not ownership it is a grant to have. Anything you are granted can be taken away. It implies ownership by a superior authority. Just as kings granted land to a knight for good work. There are no or few allodial titles to land. A certificate of title is a grant. This is part of the twisted rationals used to justify property taxation, annual vehicle taxes, vehicle insurance,etc. It is all traceable back to the Vatican and the Pope being the ruler and owner of the world. It will be used as a rational in default to take everything away from you. Of course it is all in the minds and beliefs of the conspirators who execute this via legalese and legal society / legal system. Every society has can have a vocabulary of it's own. The vocabulary of legalese is perpetrated on humanity via fraud / deception. This is called hiding in plain site.

reply to post by Pauligirl

Allodial title is on land only, and it's rare. I think there are only two states that recognize it. I've done real estate for a law office for 21 years and I've never see it here in NC.

So...If you have Allodial title on your land, does that mean you wouldn't have to pay property tax on it. Am I getting this straight? And if I am, which states recognize Allodial titles on property?

[edit on 10/23/2009 by JohnnyR]

Good thread... and yeah I can't really comment on what I actually think about this Government, because eyes and ears are everywhere...

This whole conversation has been very entertaining. If you do not drive your car in many states you do not have to register it. If you do not have to register it, you do not have to pay a tax. If you are not late on tax and do not have to register they will not impound it. Then you can leave the state without paying any fees on the vehicle to the state you have it not operating in. If you file for a non operable registration in California then move to Oregon, you do not need to file a registration in Oregon. You do not need to pay California more fees because you are not a resident. Your vehicle is free from all fees. So what state owns it then? Of course you would need to change the title over but not register.

To clarify the OP is about ownership not driving. However if you want to drive it then move to Moses Point Alaska. Then you will again have to transfer your title but you will not have to register it. So if you do not have to register the car, then you die and it is passed on to whomever is in your will they will not have to pay a state tax. There is no inheritance tax in Alaska. You will not have to pay it in California where you came from or Oregon where you moved too. So none of the states obviously own it or the original state could claim it.

Like I said I think this is very entertaining.

I just wasted 20 minutes of my life and I will never get it back.

[edit on 23-10-2009 by TimeTo23]

Actually every ware or product that is beeing "sold", has already been paid for (by the labor of the guys who manufactured it. They worked on it and got paid.)

Charging a fee for said product (sale price) actually isnt allowed. Its some kind of "interrest rate". By paying the full price, this product has to become fully yours (with all the rights of ownership etc.)
In fact as long a worker produces a product, this product has to be free.

You as a customer pay the company the material and the risk that company takes, which is not legal.
The companys acoount is balanced no matter what. The price they´re demanding is just an excessive interrest. Illegal practice

Exactly! You have to pay a fee to NOT drive it! You can't just let your vehicle sit in your driveway with out being charged a fee to let it sit there.