The Jesus Conspiracy & why you believe...

First off, many of you will notice that I am new to this particular thread. I have a great respect for those who take comfort and solice in religion. But there is one thing that baffles me.

Jesus was a man. Had followers that were men. But his followers didn't warrent writting about this important person for many years.

If a figure was that inpirational and that incredible during those years, How is it that it took so long to write about him.

Also, the Old Testiment was mentioned in the Dead Sea Scrolls, therefore validating it's historical exsistance. However, the New Testiment was not mentioned at any time before King Constantine.

Now there a funny thing as well... How can you believe in something that was debated on in by a council to write the New Testiment as you see it today. All facts were debated (key word) upon at this coucil.

Does this stike anyone following the New Testiment as odd?

To me, it's not the origins that matter. Jesus taught us how to live at peace with one another. He gave us all the info we need to live fruitful lives. It does not matter to me where the book came from. Wether or not you believe in him as a person, doesn't matter. But why not believe in his MESSAGE?

yes indeed it is very very odd that this man who is supposed to be the epitome of greatness and i think wisdom and knowledge should come with it why he himself have never written anything first hand about himself and instead we are being fed with all the "according to st. so and so" ?
the prophet moh'd pbuh admittedly didnt know how to write and most probably dont know how to read either but he made sure he got people to write for him whatever comes from revelations showed to him...im no muslim but he seems to be more reliable than the other guy.the people who wrote those scriptures in the bible did wrote half a century and even hundreds of years later... hmm something to reckon with , right mate?

The "Gospel" was preached by word of mouth for some time after Jesus arose from the dead. The writings came after to testify as to what happened during the very early time. The New Testament writings were actually letters that were written to specific people or churches at the time and were kept preserved due to their inspirational power. But from the time of Jesus ascension to that time the message was clear, accept that Christ is the Son of God and receive salvation through Him to God by repentance and forgiveness of sins.

reply to post by Jkd Up

the Old Testiment was mentioned in the Dead Sea Scrolls,
therefore validating it's historical exsistance. However,
the New Testiment was not mentioned at any time before King Constantine.

Reason being, it didn't exist prior.

What is known by christians as the "old testment" is the jewish Tanakh. It wasn't until the council of Nicea in 325AD that work began to consolidate the various writings into one book, dismiss the ones they didn't like, and call it the bible.

To phrase it indelicately, the jews had their own books for a long time, and then one day the christians came along and stapled their own works to the end of a collection of jewish writings, and called it their own.

Does this stike anyone following the New Testiment as odd?

I personally find it far more amusing to hear christians disapprove of mormonism. Because the mormons basically did the same thing: they took the bible and said "Oh, yeah...that's true, BUT!!! Here's the book of mormon. It's more current, so it takes precedence."



[edit on 22-10-2009 by LordBucket]

The gospels were indeed written quite a while after Jesus died. But the manuscripts we HAVE are dated at 60 to 100 years after His death. That does not mean there are not earlier manuscripts. It just means we haven't found them.
As far as the Canon is concerned, there were a great many manuscripts that didn't make it into the bible. That includes the Old Testament as well(example; the Book of Enoch.) Those well versed in scripture did not believe these books were divinely inspired. In fact some of them, especially some of the purported "gospels" are obvious forgeries.
The rest of the New Testament is, as mentioned above, are letters written by Paul and other apostles to individual churches, chiding them for their mistakes in doctrine and praising them when they were correct in their decisions.
The main thing about the Bible is the message. Jesus came to fulfill the law and allow us to be saved from our sins. If you choose to believe that, then I think it is wonderfu. If you choose not to believe it, then why do so many want to deny me or others the right to believe?
I don't think Jesus was a "conspiracy.' He was a real man, who referred to himself as The Son Of Man and The Son of God, indicating his dual nature, which was without sin. As humans, we are born with a similar nature, a dual nature. The difference is we have a good side and an evil side. The evil side will prevent us from keeping the "whole of the law" thus rendering us sinners. If we accept Christ, and if we practice what Jesus taught, then we are changed, and will be appropriatly judged by God at the ressurection.

because the message if you actually pay attention if evil. Firstly did you forget that the NEW testiment introduces the idea of eternal damnation? Did you forget that the NEW testiment supports the old testiment? Did you forget that the NEW testiment is a cairfully crafted psychologically powerful work designed to control and manipulate your thoughts?

Read it again, pay attention to the threats and the fear inducing hyperbol which fills is. Do you believe jesus will sit in judgement of you disecting your life in frount of everyone thats ever lived and if you've failed to follow the harshist and most impossible of his rules that he'll throw you into a pit of torment and stand laughing as you suffer? That's what the book says.

Didn't jesus say that even THINKING about adultury or coveting is breaking gods greatest commandments? Do you believe that this 'saviour' will stand before you and cast you into the pits of hell because of a biological imperative sexual drive to reproduce which is all but uncontrollable subliminally actuated reflex action?

I believe that however i came to be here i have but one duty to my existence, that is to use my abilitys to their best and enjoy myself fully. Should at some time some magic window of quantum science let some bored race watch my life or should some strange sky wizard or creator god observe my movments then would not he want me to act as well as i could, to make do with what i have and to be the person that i am?

This book is designed to convince you to fear and reject truth, it may contain nuggets of wisdom and indeed perfect pure universal truth but those are not what it promotes. If anything it introduces them to draw false conclusions and thus end debate before it begins, remeber also that none of this was new - epicuras, aristophanes, plato and many more had debated at length the power and possible missuse of religion. Egypt from wence moses came had been doing it for millenia, Judia from which Jesus's teachings are taught was going through the romanization process and converting old tribal customs into globalist dictator tactics of which the latin empire had perfected long ago.

Indeed is it an accident that the spread of jesus comes from rome? That pontus maximus was ceaser and now pope? The old system of semi-democratic rome was simpley superseaded by the more powerfully convincing catholic empire. With bibe in hand many misdeeds were done, cryptojews tortured, athiests burnt, islam pillaged.

Maybe once a goodly man, one with many ideas and a great creative mind did walk the streets of gallalie, of canea, jerusalum his words so wise perhaps some did follow, sit at his feet to learn. His words must have opened many eyes when he spoke out against the priests, over turned tables and talked of smashing the ungodly system. Alas to the winds of times his wise words blew, maybe many mostlikely only a few survived and slowly the process began. Clergy, theologians, kings and warlords dabbled every chance they got at the books mucky pages and soon it became the weapon it is now - designed maybe unknowingly to make sure no one with the kindness, compassion or clarity of vision of that man could ever walk these green and plesants lands again.

Christian religion is a complex and very powerful spell cast over the population and ingrained so deep in the fabric of modern society that it'll take many decades if not hundreds of years to overcomes its impact. We must if we are to be true to all the good people who have been involved in religion over the years, certainly that wise jewish boy who around 2000 years ago was just starting to formulate his objection to the control impossed by organised religion. I can't help but feel sorry for the boy who said you don't need a church to be close to god, you don't need a priest to make you holy, you don't need a penny to prey - if he were looking down at the ville phalic spires spotted all over this globe, down into the nave where above the abomidable alter -reminder of those darker days when each act was still atoned by dripping blood and slaughtered flesh- hangs his visage nailed bloody flaied flesh a warning, a threat -what could he think of us? I suspect a deep tear jerking compassion would well up inside him, a deep tear for those abused, controlled, enslaved and tourtured if not physically then certainly mentally by the vial dogma pushed in his name.

For him, and for all others that have ever lived or never lived i do my best to enjoy and understand myself and the world, never will the blinkers of faith fall over my eyes - that awful invention of some clergy class, desperate to protect their power and status - never will i alow myself to be part of something on trust alone, never will i hand over my duty to decency and self moderation to so other force, never will i close off the brain i was given and trust some other authority - i am a thinking being, i have a duty to think.

Break free of the spell they cast on you, all you've really got to do is want to think for yourself and soon you'll be amazed at how good at it you are - i'm sure you've been doing it your whole life but just didn't dare admit it...

reply to post by LordBucket


This is very true! Thank you for a wonderful point!

Also, another confusing point...

How many commandments were talked about in the Old Testiment versus the New Testiment? Are we to revere the ones in the Old over the ones in the New because they exsisted first? Or does the 10 listed in the New Testiment superceede the ones in the Old? And if this was the true sinario... Would that make a faluable God?

Originally posted by OneDivided
To me, it's not the origins that matter. Jesus taught us how to live at peace with one another. He gave us all the info we need to live fruitful lives. It does not matter to me where the book came from. Wether or not you believe in him as a person, doesn't matter. But why not believe in his MESSAGE?

yes I agree with what you written here, he was a messenger and a messenger of how we could all live like him etc, heaven and hell is in one place and one place alone your own minds, the negative aspects of what is written comes from society and programming to plant seeds of fear

so be it

Originally posted by OneDivided
To me, it's not the origins that matter. Jesus taught us how to live at peace with one another. He gave us all the info we need to live fruitful lives. It does not matter to me where the book came from. Wether or not you believe in him as a person, doesn't matter. But why not believe in his MESSAGE?

I think the origins are VERY important. Either that or it's just a system of brainwash.

Jesus birthday was moved... If that is the least they did (and it wasn't)in the coucil they still tampered with too much.

I understand the "belief" overrides the origin, but you are talking about something serious enough that poeple die for... How can you believe in something you know has been altered to the whim of a king and STILL all these years later... See it the kings way?


This would be a great time to include King James in the conversation...

A little about me may help you understand my post better. I am not a conventional Christian. I believe Jesus existed, and I follow him and only him. As menttioned before Jesus said to pray in private, by yourself, just you and god. I believe the chruch is the individual believers put together. I do not attend church, I do not donate money or confess my sins to a priest, it is not his buisness.

I am free to think how I want. However, I do not know even 1% about the whole of reality, and I know I have done wrong things in my past. I made the choice to humble myself and accept that I do not have, and will never have the answers to how the world works. And here is this 2000 year oldlegend of a man who had the balls to deny any authority on this planet, so much that he let himself be killed without ever fighting back, because of something that he believed. That issomeone I can believe in, and base my life around. So you have to accept that he died to save your soul, and ask for forgiveness. In return for that you are now free of fear. I do not believe that faith restricts my thoughts. I'm free to question anything I want.

I've only really been a free man since I accepted Jesus into my life. Think about it for a while, and you will understand.

People don't die over the religion, if they are persecuted for their beliefs, then to me, they die over their freedom of thought and refusal to give it up.

According to the New Testament Jesus came to make a new covenant with man.

As for commandments, those things which are asked of us in the Old Testament and repeated again in the New Testament are what we are to adhere to.

Since we are human and can never be perfect in this life a provision was made so that we can have forgiveness of our sins if we ask for it.

As`far as the King James version of the Holy Bible I think it stinks. I don't know why so many people think the KJ version is the only bible that is valid. Such ignorance makes me ill.

I have several versions of The Holy Bible that I study. I enjoy the Hebrew bible and the Catholic bible. But I read all the others and then make my conclusion.

I am no longer a part of organized religion. My belief is in the Trinity.

The Holy Bible I consider to be my instruction book for life on earth.

reply to post by OneDivided


sure deism is a fine belief and i respect your position, you remember how hard the church battled against it? Only the very rich and powerfull managed to battle for the right to practice religion in this way - this was only made possible due to the Age of Enlightenment which saw many traditional christian roles and morals overturned - before this time death by burning for the crime of herrasy. It was illigal and a capital crime to be an athiest even as late as the 19th century!

You are on the right path not trusting the church, however never forget they they crafted the bible - they chose its texts. Nothing holy or divine went into the process, they are books written by men and if you wish to understand them then a study of the Apocrypha and other biblically contemporay texts is vital. Learn from the wisdom of the bible but don't have faith that it's right, use the vast computational power of reasoning, logic and wisdom you've been given to understand and make your own life, surely thats what any just and sensible god would want?

reply to post by OneDivided


Plenty of people died over it during the Crusades...

reply to post by Jkd Up


don't forget that being an athiest was a capital crime punishable by death in every god fearing christian nation - pleanty of people who chose not to believe in sky wizards were killed because of this, something that athiests never mention - if the world gets controlled by christians again we're all dead!

reply to post by NatureBoy


You make good points, and I am always searching for more info, thank you for the referral to those texts, I will look into them.

Jkd Up, they died at the hands of people doing exactly what their lord spoke against. Those who live by the sword die by the sword.

I agree that a whole lot of evil deeds are comitted "In God's name" but anyone who calls themselves a Christian, then kills in the name of god, obviously missed the point.

Don't blame god for the crusades, blame ignorance.

reply to post by NatureBoy


Christians that were really Christians, wouldn't be so bad....

When I say Christian I'm talking about the ones who actually read the bible, not the ones who sit In a church and let someone else tell them how to think.

Originally posted by Jkd Up
First off, many of you will notice that I am new to this particular thread. I have a great respect for those who take comfort and solice in religion. But there is one thing that baffles me.

Jesus was a man. Had followers that were men. But his followers didn't warrent writting about this important person for many years.

If a figure was that inpirational and that incredible during those years, How is it that it took so long to write about him.

Also, the Old Testiment was mentioned in the Dead Sea Scrolls, therefore validating it's historical exsistance. However, the New Testiment was not mentioned at any time before King Constantine.

Now there a funny thing as well... How can you believe in something that was debated on in by a council to write the New Testiment as you see it today. All facts were debated (key word) upon at this coucil.

Does this stike anyone following the New Testiment as odd?

First off, you have to understand that the Christians were being persecuted. It's really hard to write something while being persecuted.

In order for books to be considered New Testament Scripture, they had to be confirmed as the work of an inspired apostle or of a prophet so closely associated with the apostles as to imply apostolic approval of their writing. (This accounts for the inclusion of the writings of Mark and Luke.)
See more here:
www.bible.ca...