2012 Mass Delusion

Originally posted by Skyfloating

Originally posted by MrVertigo
To me, telling people: "You base your lives on hollow beliefs and are deluded. I pity you" is not a very spiritually advanced thing to do.

1) Compassion is something other than Pity

2) I disagree that being honest is not a spiritual thing to do.

1) This is the quote from your post:

There`s some amount of compassion I have for these people...this website alone features hundreds...because they are building their entire personal cosmology and lifestyle around something completelely artificial and empty.

That sounds like pity to me. It certainly is compassionate in a fairly condescending way.

2) There is a difference between being honest and telling people what they should or should not believe in. I believe that you are doing the latter. The title of your thread says it all really.

Originally posted by Skyfloating

Originally posted by Geladinhu
Have it ever occurred to you that maybe your own interpretation of the phenomena is misleading?

What "phenomena" would that be?

You`re talking in generalities that have no bearing on the OP.

[edit on 13-10-2009 by Skyfloating]

What phenomena? 2012 phenomena!
How has that no bearing on the OP?

Concepts and ideas are phenomena, are they not?

reply to post by Geladinhu


Its indeed an interesting social and cultural phenomenon. And amidst all the 2012-believing threads Im happy to throw a non-believing one in. So what?

You say you can intuit change...but it doesnt take a genius to see that change is all around...since the 19th century right up to the 21st...but what does that have to do with the year 2012 specifically? Change has been for the last decades and will continue to be for many more presumably...


[edit on 13-10-2009 by Skyfloating]

Originally posted by Geladinhu
What phenomena? 2012 phenomena!
How has that no bearing on the OP?

You are asking me if I have EVER considered that my interpretation of 2012 may be misleading?

Reading this website every day Im forced to consider it all the time

This thread portrays a different way to see it.

12-21-2012.

Seems like a good day for a worldwide television broadcast and the introduction of a world "savior" to head up the new One World Government.

All I'm "suggesting" is DO NOT WATCH TV THAT DAY!!!

[edit on 10/13/2009 by watchtheashes]

Originally posted by MrVertigo
There is a difference between being honest and telling people what they should or should not believe in. I believe that you are doing the latter. The title of your thread says it all really.

I can show you a few hundred threads here that tell you to believe that 2012 is somehow significant (as opposed to any other date).

What I think is that 2012 is either a socially engineered conspiracy or a mass delusion. Im suggesting it just like others suggest that it is a significant date.

Originally posted by watchtheashes
12-21-2012.
Seems like a good day for a worldwide television broadcast and the introduction of a world "savior" to head up the new One World Government.

All I'm "suggesting" is DO NOT WATCH TV THAT DAY!!!

That might actually be the conspiracy planned.

Or not.

But we have to at least entertain the possibility.

reply to post by Skyfloating


Who said anything about specifics? You are the only using that term here. As I mentioned before I understand it as being non-literal or symbolical.

Of course it has been changing and it will continue to change.
But when will humanity reach that awareness? 2012?
Aren't we becoming aware just about now? Now is almost 2012 isn't it?

You see, look at it as if you were a historian from the future. You need symbolic dates to address events that occur throughout many years. Crash of 1929. Did it suddenly happen in 1929? Was there "one day" that changed it all? No! It was a progression of events that started before 1929 and extended way beyond 1929.

Its nothing specific, the specifically of it is just conventional to make it easier to address and talk about. It would be difficult to talk about the crash of 29 if we had to start with the entire history of capitalism. We don't need to though because we have a symbolic date that holds the entire history of capitalism for us. We know that when we say crash of 29 we are talking about much more then just 1929.

Originally posted by Geladinhu
You are the only using that term here. As I mentioned before I understand it as being non-literal or symbolical.

Based on what? What book? What data? What indicator? What website? What teacher? What Documentary?

But when will humanity reach that awareness? 2012? Aren't we becoming aware just about now? Now is almost 2012 isn't it?

Awareness has gone up since the 19th Century with another jump in the last 50 years (Internet-Revolution and all).

But there is still a lot of divisiveness in the world, a lot of unawareness.

It was a progression of events that started before 1929 and extended way beyond 1929.

And should anything of that fashion happen 2012 it will be because masses believed-it-into-existence rather than pre-ordained. If its a new-age rather than doom, I dont actually mind believing-it-into-existence.

(Btw: ours is a special case. You are not representative of most 2012-believers who take 2012 literally)

reply to post by Geladinhu


Have you ever had any suspicion at all about the 2012-movement?

reply to post by Geladinhu

It grabs they're attention because its powerful.

it grabs your attention because it`s repeated over and over (from the History to Discovery channels; to movies (hollywood and around the world); to news media (tv, internet, radio, printed); to LITTERature; not to mention chatter amongst friends, online and off). This, in itself proves that the OP, at the very least, makes some sense.

And throughout history we`ve seen several examples of lies, or propaganda, theories, opinions (of those holding the status quo) being repeated ad nauseam. (keynesianism vs liberalism vs wellfare state vs neo-liberalism vs keynesianism again; anti-chooseyourISM...)

Either right or wrong, the OP, he`s being quite reasonable in questioning such a powerful meme. And also pretty sane in doing so, may his objectors take a clue and revise why are they`re so SURE of their beliefs (is it faith?). If after this self-questioning you`re still on the same page as before, great, your faith has just been proven.

reply to post by Skyfloating


My understanding is based on my perceptions and refined by my own thinking.
I'm an anthropology student so symbols are really significant to me and to my approach of the human universe. Symbols are much more significant then any literalism for my goals that include the understanding of human nature and behavior. You need sources? Carl Jung, Joseph Campbell, Clifford Geertz, Victor Turner, and so on.


And yes, of course I think there are charlatans and other crazy people that use the whole 2012 things for their own agendas. But that happens with everything else.

btw, why would anyone need a predefined and prophesized date to become aware. couldn`t you do it, like, tomorrow?

why not, too cold? too hot? too soon? too late?
maybe a little out of "place"?

reply to post by Skyfloating


Hi Skyfloating, what you seem to be missing is part of history and the passing of a brown dwarf star that has taken place many times in the past and is a cyclic event of earth. One does not have to look any further than ancient civilizations and archeological discoveries to find evidence of this. The world will never end at least not for billions of years but it will change as it always has changed- it’s part of the cycle/evolution of earth. Seasons take place on a yearly basis and so do cyclic events of earth on longer periods of time. I know things will change in 2011 because I have seen/been shown these things and I do not expect you to take my word for it alone- only to look at the evidence/facts and there is plenty of it out there! I am also positive that governments in high places know about this event and have long since been preparing for it.

Once people really look at the hard evidence and realize all that has been kept from them listening to government eye-witness testimonies, viewing military documents and so on it would be irrational not to believe these people's testimonies and not to believe the many ancient civilizations testimonies/records. There is proof on many levels for those who really want to face/know the truth. 2012 was never a year to worry about other than earth being changed for humanity but 2011 is a year to prepare for and I have "proof" of this event on a certain level/degree. Depending on how much "proof" you need as everyone differs on what they need to see. If 20+ government/military officials with credible positions/credentials came out and talked about it, that would probably still not be enough so called "proof" for the average person or would it? Well we have much more than just 20+ military, government official’s testimonies, there is overwhelming amounts of evidence to be found supporting that this event has happened in the past and will happen again- so much evidence that it’s absolutely pure “ignorance” “close-mindedness”, “Irrational” of a person do not consider the possibility of this event after viewing all the evidence first. People only have to study the past to view a glimpse of the future as this event is a cyclic event that has occurred many times before.

A wise man would at least consider that such an event could in fact be a possibility and study/research all the evidence first before hastily making a decision. Or a person can always remain close minded/ignorant dismissing the possibility without ever researching/investigating. I’m asking that you do your own research because obviously from some of the information provided in this thread it only goes to show that someone has not truly researched history/archeology and catastrophic events/catacylsm’s of the past. There is a much larger picture to be told then simply the Mayans or a 2012 calendar. I suggest everyone further look into/research this matter before quickly dismissing it. Either way it’s your choice-people like myself are spending a great deal of effort on putting this information out spending a lot of time and expense only to do humanity a favor and forewarn them of things to come for the benefit of their families/future. Look at the evidence/facts before walking away close-minded! To be forewarned is to be forearmed!

www.poleshift2011.com...
www.unityfortruth.com...
www.earthchanges2011.com...

ET_MAN

reply to post by maoklein


Hey, I'm not here against the questioning.
I think the questioning is excellent.

I just think that the claims and the approach used here are not really efficient.

I totally agree that its reasonable to question the meme. All I'm saying is that the way the meme was analyzed in this case leads us to nowhere.

We are using the Maya calender end-date to lump together a profusion of ideas...I guess that Major Jenkins set the date at Winter Solstice 2012...
and that date has caught-on with the pop-culture


other things that reinforce our minds (conscious or subconscious)
that something big is building up..the kondratieff cycle/wave...
the Elliott wave... the bigger picture view of Societal/economic Entropy...
DNA manipulation/chimeras/clones/ ~ we have advanced technologically to the point 'we' are pseudo-creators i.e. god like...

we, collectively are in a Armageddon Anticipation Overload


hey go-with-the-flow, and chill....
2012 is just another alternative to the Biblical end times and the establishment of the Millennial Kingdon (AKA: Malkut Pei) = "Kingdom of the Mouth"
...Established after a massive annhilation of spirit beings/fallen Angels/ goblins-[mazikin]/ goyim/gentiles[animals among men] and beings such as 'Amalek' & 'Samael' the progentors of Doubt within the chosen peoples+Unchastity+Murder+and Idolotry....

and these concepts are OK?




[edit on 13-10-2009 by St Udio]

reply to post by maoklein


Here you are doing the same thing that the OP is doing in my opinion.
You are only using the interpretations of other people to argue, what good does that do? Don't we know already that each interpretation fits perfectly for the interpreter and that each interpreter is unique?

I don't think you understand that many many other interpretations exist which have nothing to do at all with prophecy or pre-definition. If I put a glass of water in the freezer I know it will be totally frozen by tomorrow. Prophecy? Pre-definition? No, its just a good analysis of cause and effect.

The future is vague at the very least and usually a blinding surprise in most cases, especially when speaking of cycles lasting millions of years.

Raup and Sepkoski1 have recently reported evidence fora 26-Myr periodicity in the occurrence of mass extinctions based on a study of marine fossils. The data baseline of 250 Myr suggests events of variable amplitude, with some of the strongest peaks associated with boundaries between major geological periods which have been defined by previous palaeontological studies. In a more limited quantitative study, Fischer and Arthur2 earlier cited evidence for a 32-Myr period of major extinction events. Hatfield and Camp3 were among the first to suggest that mass extinctions might be correlated with periodic galactic phenomena, noting intervals of 80−90 Myr between major mass extinctions with an exceptionally strong mass extinction every 225−275 Myr. Here we point out a possible correlation between the 26-Myr extinction period and the Sun's oscillation about the galactic plane.

www.nature.com...

Hmmm... mass extinctions happening in cycles? Not too lovely a view for a species of humans only on this planet for 2 to 300,000 years.

Harvard is looking into it...

A possible correlation between the 26-Myr extinction period reported by Raup and Sepkoski (1984) and the sun's oscillation about the galactic plane is pointed out. The extinction level for electromagnetic radiation in the 2 keV-01 eV range and the galactic cosmic ray distribution both change with distance from the galactic plane, and their possible role as agents of mass extinctions is briefly examined.

adsabs.harvard.edu...

More reading material to confuse ourselves with:

The period and amplitude of the Sun's motion perpendicular to the galactic plane are important parameters in some explanations of the terrestrial mass extinctions and cratering records1−5. Here we have calculated the range of periods and vertical excursions that are consistent with the distributions of tracer stars in the Galaxy and have also evaluated the probable phase jitter in the solar period. We find acceptable half-periods for the vertical oscillation that range from 26 to 37 Myr (including the range of periods that have been inferred from the terrestrial records on mass extinctions and on cratering), maximum heights above the plane from 49 to 93 pc, and an average phase jitter per half-period of the order of 6−9%. The largest uncertainty in all these calculations is caused by the unknown distribution of the unseen mass that must be postulated to explain the distribution of observed stars6−7. For all the models we consider, the most recent passage of the Sun through the galactic plane occurred in the past 3 Myr provided only that the present position of the Sun is between 0 and 20 pc above the plane. We extend the argument of Thaddeus and Chanan8 to show that the apparent periodicity in the mass extinction and cratering records cannot be caused by an population of objects (observed or unobserved) that contributes a major fraction of the total mass density at the solar vicinity.

www.nature.com...

So, the BIG question, out of all that, should be- "Does our solar system cross the Galactic Plane on or about 2012?"

Answer: *shrug* We don't know. We don't know exactly where that galactic plane is because we've only guessed at it. Maybe those human sacrificing ancient Mayans knew something we don't or they were just as much in the dark as we are. One thing I do know is that they referred to the Milky way as the Sacred Tree and a marker of note. Why...(?) no idea.

The periodic dips through the 'galactic plane' are once every ~33 million years and an ELE occurs on a cycle every 60 odd million years.

(?)

About those Maya:

The Maya used several calendars simultaneously. One of them called the "long count", is a continuous record of days from a zero date that correlates to Aug. 13, 3114 BC, and is more precise than the Julian calendar revised in Europe in 1582. The Maya were great astronomers and kept track of the solar and lunar years, eclipses and the cycles of visible planets. To carry out their calendric and astronomical calculations they developed a sophisticated mathematical system where units are written with dots and bars are used to represent five units. They discovered and used the zero as well as a vigesimal positioning system, similar to the decimal positioning system we use today.

www.mayacalendar.com...

A starting date of 3114 BC, eh? Around 5126 of our Julian years for the total Long Count. Definitely NOT 33 or 60 millions of years. Question then should be - "What happened on the last Mayan Year Zero?" Obviously the world didn't totally end then either.

So, what DID happen around then?

3200 BC - Narmer Palette, world's earliest known historical document

www.spiritus-temporis.com...

The beginning of the third millennium BC was characterized with the emergence of the old empires in the east accompanied by the discovery of writing and the start of writing history. From here, historical ages started in Palestine.

[...]

The era that extended from 3200 BC to 2000 BC is called the Ancient Bronze Age. It was characterized by the emergence of the fortified defending towns built on high hills.
library.thinkquest.org...

It's sounding a bit like something started right around that time. Or was it old 'somethings' that had been almost completely destroyed and yet bits of knowledge survived to be used once again?

Anyways, it doesn't really match with 60 million year cycles for ELE's, does it? Tempting evidence, though, that in around year zero of the Mayan calendar, the first 'book' appeared in Egypt and a new age had begun which, to my mind, symbolized a new kind of civilization.

Newgrange (Brú na Bóinne) is an ancient neolithic passage tomb that dates back to 3200 BC, making it older than the Pyramids of Giza.

realtravel.com...

The precise age of the pyramids of Giza has long been debated because, until now, there has been little evidence to prove when the pyramids were built. The history books generally point to 3200 B.C. as the approximate date when the pyramid of Khufu was under construction.

www.pbs.org...

Ancient structure building fight!!!

But, really, things were popping around and after the Mayan year zero.

Bottom line:

I don't, and neither does anyone else, know what happened back then, nor does anyone know what will happen in 2012. Only one thing stands out... SOMETHING happened the last time around. There seems to be a burgeoning of a New Age *chuckle* in 3200 BC. What brought it on is anyones guess.

As to the crossing of the galactic plane, the line is WAY too fuzzy because no-one ever really got the big ruler out and inscribed it accurately.

Did the Mayans know something we don't? I think they did because their study of the stars gave them knowledge of time earlier and, in some ways, even more accurately than we ever did. Same with the ancient Egyptians in that they knew the cycles of precession.

As Zahi Hawass, director General of Giza says:

No single artifact, no single inscription, or pottery, or anything has been found until now, in any place, to predate the Egyptian civilization more than 5,000 years ago.

www.pbs.org...

OK...

[edit on 13/10/09 by masqua]

reply to post by Geladinhu


i liked his approach because i sometimes wonder that if 2012 were sort of a fringe conspiracy -- underground and not widely known -- i would have credited it with much more regards. The verbiage is what raises an eyebrow. (not that i believe in reptilians being in control of the world, but you can get the point).

his tone (ilocution) might be a little off, but how could he be thought provoking if he had toned it down.

edit to add: i`m also freaked out by the thought of some high ranking military, or political, believing in such things... and, decide to make it happen. they may very well be of the elite, yet still humans. that`s what makes a perfect self-fullfilling prophecy. by a brainwashed brass in denial, by the push of a button or the signing of a order. (no nwo`er, no bloodliner, alien in disguise; just an ordinary human being caught in the moment)

edit to remove a few too many wells.
edit to emphasize: hic et nunc.

[edit on 13/10/2009 by maoklein]

The idea that the Mayans predicted the end of the world in 2012 is ridiculous, especially considering that archeological evidence exists that proves this to be untrue. Inscriptions have been found at various Mayan sites with dates far beyond 2012, including one that roughly translates into the year 4772.

2012 and the Long Count
See also: 2012 phenomenon
According to the Popol Vuh, a book compiling details of creation accounts known to the K'iche' Maya of the Colonial-era highlands, we are living in the fourth world.[10] The Popol Vuh describes the first three creations that the gods failed in making and the creation of the successful fourth world where men were placed. In the Maya Long Count, the previous creation ended at the start of a 13th b'ak'tun.

The previous creation ended on a long count of 12.19.19.17.19. Another 12.19.19.17.19 will occur on December 20, 2012, followed by the start of the fourteenth b'ak'tun, 13.0.0.0.0, on December 21, 2012.[11] There is only one reference to the current creation's 13th b'ak'tun in the fragmentary Mayan corpus: Tortuguero Monument 6, part of a ruler's inscription.

Maya inscriptions occasionally reference future predicted events or commemorations that would occur on dates that lie beyond 2012 (that is, beyond the completion of the 13th b'ak'tun of the current era). Most of these are in the form of "distance dates" where some Long Count date is given, together with a Distance Number that is to be added to the Long Count date to arrive at this future date.

For example, on the west panel at the Temple of Inscriptions in Palenque, a section of the text projects into the future to the 80th Calendar Round (CR) 'anniversary' of the famous Palenque ruler K'inich Janaab' Pakal's accession to the throne (Pakal's accession occurred on a Calendar Round date 5 Lamat 1 Mol, at Long Count 9.9.2.4.8 equivalent to 27 July 615 CE).[12] It does this by commencing with Pakal's birthdate 9.8.9.13.0 8 Ajaw 13 Pop (24 March 603 CE) and adding to it the Distance Number 10.11.10.5.8.[13] This calculation arrives at the 80th Calendar Round since his accession, a day that also has a CR date of 5 Lamat 1 Mol, but which lies over 4,000 years in the future from Pakal's time—the day 21 October in the year 4772. The inscription notes that this day would fall eight days after the completion of the 1st piktun [since the creation or zero date of the Long Count system], where the piktun is the next-highest order above the b'ak'tun in the Long Count. If the completion date of that piktun—13 October 4772—were to be written out in Long Count notation, it could be represented as 1.0.0.0.0.0. The 80th CR anniversary date, eight days later, would be 1.0.0.0.0.8 5 Lamat 1 Mol.[14]

Despite the publicity generated by the 2012 date, Susan Milbrath, curator of Latin American Art and Archaeology at the Florida Museum of Natural History, stated that "We [the archaeological community] have no record or knowledge that [the Maya] would think the world would come to an end" in 2012.[15] "For the ancient Maya, it was a huge celebration to make it to the end of a whole cycle," says Sandra Noble, executive director of the Foundation for the Advancement of Mesoamerican Studies in Crystal River, Florida. To render December 21, 2012, as a doomsday event or moment of cosmic shifting, she says, is "a complete fabrication and a chance for a lot of people to cash in."[16] "There will be another cycle," says E. Wyllys Andrews V, director of the Tulane University Middle American Research Institute (MARI). "We know the Maya thought there was one before this, and that implies they were comfortable with the idea of another one after this." [17]

en.wikipedia.org...

Mayan Elder: 2012 isn't The End of the World

www.sott.net...

The Long Count
www.mayan-calendar.com...



[edit on 13-10-2009 by kindred]