Why Christ was NOT Yahweh of the Old testament

I think one must understand the father and son relationship to know what Jesus means in terms of saying he is god.

When he asked such, all he does is quote Psalm 82.

Psalm 82

2How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.

3Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.

4Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.

5They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.

6I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

7But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.

All are children of god. What Jesus says in terms of the father is that the father is within him. And to understand what that means, again it's about father and son relationship. So I'll explain how the father is within people.

2 things to keeping mind. The father is much greater than the son - any son(daughter as well). And the father is all knowing.

What does it mean that the father is all knowing? This means the father knows all things, all possibilities and so forth.

Imagine for a minute if you knew everything there was to know. In that perspective, there is no time, no change, and the universe is static and without movement. Because there is no change that can happen.

So, we can liken this to a movie. In the perspective of the father, it would be like taking a movie film and stretching that movie out completely and looking at the entire movie at once. In this mode, the film has no time, no change and would be the way it is for eternity.

Time comes about when you do 2 things. First, you have to limit the perspective and what is known. And then you have to add to that perspective. In terms of the movie film, we limit the perspective by only viewing 1 frame at a "time". "Time" in the movie is just the change of 1 frame to the next. And that is the 2nd thing, change and the addition of the information.

But as the father is all knowing, it means that rather than 1 single film, there are unlimited films, all "stacked" on top of each other. All possibilities.

So, what is the father and son relationship? The above. The father is the perspective that see's the entire film at once. The son is the limited perception that views and experiences the movie. This is the "observer" in each and every person. It is not physical at all, and is spirit. If you try right now to define what "you" are, you will only be able to describe possessions. "Your" body, "Your mind", "Your soul", "Your consciousness". Because what is really you is that which possesses, that which observes and experiences.

Thus, the father is within Jesus, but the father is much greater than he is. Because the father is within all, the father knows all and so forth.

"I am god, and I am arguing with myself". In the end, there is only one true observer of all things, and that is the father. Are you an observer? Do you experience? Do you understand what it means to be? If so, the father is within you - go find him. What do you seek? The truth, the light, the way and the life.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by LeoVirgo

 

I'm sure on this forum you have had some kind of debate with atheists who do not believe in the existence of any god (maybe because they can not get away from the idea that if there was a god, he would have to be evil).
Well, tell me how your argument goes over, with them. I mean, do they all of a sudden find your god more acceptable, because somehow He has not been tainted by the mundane goings on of this world?
That is just not possible, having a god, no matter how high up in the sky he is, that is not somehow responsible for what has happened for so many thousands of years on this planet.

Well 'most high' is not really talking about 'up' in the sky. We can come back to that if needed.

Dont think that being the Supreme One ever becomes less of being Thee Supreme One.

Do you think Atheist like to hear that they must walk in the way and carry their own cross? Why do you suppose that it is Christians who have a problem with those words I just spoke? Atheists dont want to hear about Karma (reaping what you sow) or having to come back and live again in the gnashing of teeth.

I have had great discussions with Atheists. I dont judge them for where they are in the cycle. I love them and try to let my humble light shine to them is all. I am here for the one's that think God demands blood shed for sins....they are the one's (my past selves) that I am here to bring word to. There are Atheists that have better hearts then religious people. And just the same though, there are some religious people that have better hearts then an Atheists. I love them all.

Originally posted by Blue_Jay33
Yahweh created Jesus before time and space(physical matter) existed making him very special. But he was created.
Unless you think that God is the equivalent of some type of spiritual blob that can release part of his being and have it come back and join him later on.

That's not what the bible teaches.

The bible teaches unity of thought and purpose, not dual souls in a spiritual blob as one entity.

This thought is brought out early in the bible

John 14: 20At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

It's not a "blob" because it's not physical at all. But in terms of the father being with all things, then yes. God of the living = souls of men. Is it your body that brings things to life? Or is it that which observes within things that brings thing to life? Without that observer, there is no life, all is dead. Without your "soul" and the father within you, there is no "Reality" because there is nothing to perceive it.

Genesis 2:24

24That's why a man will leave his own father and mother. He marries a woman, and the two of them become like one person.

Follow that line of reasoning to
John 10:30

I and the Father are one.

John 15:19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

Your soul is not of this creation. This creation is based on logic, on laws, on action and reaction. Freewill and the observer is not of this world. You are hated for it, because you are not like the other machines and tools those who run this world work. A rocket for example brings people power, because it has no choice, no free will. They know the correct actions to give in order to give the reactions wanted. If the rocket had choice, who knows where it would end up, no power for them.

And you are hated for this, and the world works to try and manipulate you and turn you into this robot that works like the rocket does. Where they can introduce certain actions to you, and get the reactions they want. What do people who sell their soul do? They become puppets who do what they are told in exchange for material wealth. Manipulation is needed because it's not the truth, and the people themselves have to agree and choose it. If you do not go along, you are dealt with and hated. Evidence A: Jesus.

Verse right before the one I quoted above:

John 15:18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.

Further down:

John 15:23 He that hateth me hateth my Father also.

Oneness in unity and purpose not actual existence.

This is actually right, because it is not "existence" that is being talked about, but rather that which is required and makes "existance" in the first place.

Some of you guys need to break free from the 4th century dogma influenced by rampant paganism. If you would only read the bible and allow the holy spirit to give you a sliver of independence you would have a spiritual epiphany.
I know so many Christians that have had that light bulb moment and it is very liberating for them.

I'm not a Christian, and I don't belong to any religion. But I do recognize the father within Jesus.

Originally posted by badmedia
. . .Do you understand what it means to be? If so, the father is within you - go find him. What do you seek? The truth, the light, the way and the life.

The closest thing to this I could find in the Bible is:
1 John 2:24 As for you, what you have heard from the beginning must remain in you. If what you heard from the beginning remains in you, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father.

Pretty much all of John 14 discusses this topic, that God the Father could dwell in you through his Son.

reply to post by LeoVirgo

Definitely, being humble is the only way to go.
Being arrogant and holier than thou is what gets you a millstone.
Sometimes loving people is the best thing, at least that is what they tell me at church all the time. Do good works, and my particular church does a surprising amount of that.
There is one woman I know in my church who I was trying to get to write a story about herself, and she is too humble to do it. (I hope she changes her mind. I said, if you don't, I will. Well kind of, mentioning her on forums)
She went to serve as a missionary in Beirut Lebanon, in the middle of their civil war. I said that was pretty outstanding. She said, well there were some answered prayers. I said her just being there was an answer to some one's prayers. I also worked for a woman who got sent to Haiti and was there while they were going through a bloody revolution. They wrecked all the relief agencies, except the one she ran, I guess because the people loved her. It was because she loved them first.
Oops, a note for any atheists who wonder why God does not help people in Somalia, my brother in law's, brother's son is over there right now.


[edit on 1-10-2009 by jmdewey60]

reply to post by doctorex


I think what Jesus Is Truth is trying to say is this. All taken from John 1.

The Word = Was in the beginning.
The Word = With God.
The Word = Is God.
The Word = With God in the beginning.
The Word = Became Flesh.

Jesus is the Logos (word) who was with God, is God, and is God who became incarnated.

No, I don't think they are the exact SAME being but I do believe they are both part of the godhead.

The way I described it before is like a marriage of a husband and a wife. Two separate persons united as one entity. Likewise, Jesus and 'Yahweh' are two separate entities united as one.

That's what John 1 is saying. They're two separate entities (because He was WITH God) that unite as one (because He also IS God). That's actually what most Christians believe I thought? I don't know of too many Christians who literally believe Yahweh became Jesus.

However, I understand why some are confused by your thread title because when skeptics usually say 'Jesus is not the same as the OT God' the ultimate point they are attempting to make is to say Christianity is false because Jesus of the NT is radically different from the God of the OT, which is not so.

[edit on 10/1/2009 by AshleyD]

Jesus said of Himself, "I am the good shepherd" (John 10:11). David, in the first verse of the famous 23rd Psalm, declared that "The LORD (YHWH) is my shepherd." Jesus claimed to be judge of all men and nations (John 5:22, 27). Yet Joel 3:12 says the LORD (YHWH) "will sit to judge all... nations."

Jesus said, "I am the light of the world" (John 8:12). Isaiah 60:19 says, "The LORD will be to you an everlasting light, and your God your glory." Also, David says in Psalm 27.1, "The LORD (YHWH) is my light."

Jesus asked in prayer that the Father would share His eternal glory: "O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was" (John 17:5). Yet Isaiah 42:8 says, "I am the LORD, that is My name; and My glory I will not give to another."

Jesus spoke of Himself as the coming bridegroom (Matthew 25:1), which is how YHWH says of Himself in Isaiah 44:6: "I am the First and I am the Last."

There is no question that Jesus understood Himself as the LORD (YHWH) of the Old Testament.

When Jesus was arrested, His use of the same term had an electrifying effect on those in the arresting party. "Now when He said to them, 'I am He,' they drew back and fell to the ground" (John 18:6). Notice here that "He" is in italics, meaning the word was added by the translators and isn't in the original wording. However, their attempt to make Jesus' answer more grammatically correct obscures the fact that He was likely again claiming to be the "I AM" of the Old Testament Scriptures.

The Jews confronted Jesus on another occasion, asking Him, "How long do You keep us in doubt? If you are the Christ [the prophecied Messiah], tell us plainly" (John 10:24). Jesus' answer is quite revealing: "I told you, and you do not believe" (verse 25). He had indeed confirmed His divine identity on a previous occasion (John 5:17-18).

Jesus adds, "The works that I do in My Father's name, they bear witness of Me" (John 10:25). The works He did were miracles that only God could do. They could not refute the miraculous works Jesus did.

He made another statement that incensed them: "I and My Father are one" (verse 30). That is, the Father and Jesus were both divine. Again, there was no mistaking the intent of what He said, because "then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him" (verse 31).

Jesus countered, "Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?" The Jews responded, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God" (verses 32-33).

The Jews understood perfectly well what Jesus meant. He was telling them plainly of His divinity.

Jesus claimed authority to forgive sins.
Christ claimed power to raise the dead.
Jesus accepted honor and worship.
Jesus instructed us to pray in His name.

Now what do you say to that?

Trust me though.... I don't believe in the trinity doctrine. Jesus and the Father are both Gods and represent the present "Elohim" or "family of God".

People get stuck on verse 1 of John, because of the way it is (purposely) translated in English, thinking this is saying that the word was "with" God, as in two beings standing side by side. Do a check on how many other times you will find the word "with" in the English transaltion of the new testament, and you will find it is a completely different word than the one John 1.

Some examples....

Jn 3:2 This one came to Him by night and said to Him, "Rabbi, we are aware that Thou art a Teacher come from God, for no one can be doing these signs which Thou art doing, if God should not be with (meta) Him."

Jn 17:24 "Father, those whom Thou hast given Me, I will that, where I am, they also may be with (meta) Me, that they may be beholding My glory which Thou has given Me, for Thou lovest Me before the disruption of the world.

Jn 18:26 One of the slaves of the chief priest, being a relative of the one whose ear Peter strikes off, is saying, "Did not I perceive you in the garden with (meta) him?"


G3326 - meta (met-ah') : a primary preposition (often used adverbially); properly, denoting accompaniment; "amid" (local or causal); modified variously according to the case (genitive association, or accusative succession) with which it is joined; occupying an intermediate position between 575 or 1537 and 1519 or 4314; less intimate than 1722 and less close than 4862):--after(-ward), X that he again, against, among, X and, + follow, hence, hereafter, in, of, (up-)on, + our, X and setting, since, (un-)to, + together, when, with (+ -out). Often used in composition, in substantially the same relations of participation or proximity, and transfer or sequence.



The word used in John 1 is not Meta, it is Pros....

G4314 - pros (pros) : a strengthened form of 4253; a preposition of direction; forward to, i.e. toward (with the genitive case, the side of, i.e. pertaining to; with the dative case, by the side of, i.e. near to; usually with the accusative case, the place, time, occasion, or respect, which is the destination of the relation, i.e. whither or for which it is predicated):--about, according to , against, among, at, because of, before, between, (where-)by, for, X at thy house, in, for intent, nigh unto, of, which pertain to, that, to (the end that), X together, to (you) -ward, unto, with(-in). In the comparative case, it denotes essentially the same applications, namely, motion towards, accession to, or nearness at.

John 1 is not neccessarily saying that the word was "with" God, but more specifically, the word was "unto" God, as the word is more commonly translated in the English. Notice it is more a meaning of direction, meaning "because of", "according to", "towards". The word is the revelatory thought of God (what Logos means), it shows what God is, his nature, it points to his being, just as your words and conduct point to and show your being, your mindset.

G3056 - logos (log'-os) : from 3004; something said (including the thought); by implication, a topic (subject of discourse), also reasoning (the mental faculty) or motive; by extension, a computation;


Now read John 1 again with this in mind, not with a preconcieved idea that this is talking of Jesus being "with" God....

JOHN 1
1 In the beginning was the Word (logos), and the Word (logos) was with (pros) God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with (pros) God.

It is saying in the beggining was the revelatory thought/mind of God, and that mind was according to God, because that revealtory thought was God.

Jesus was the logos of God made flesh, he had it dwelling in him, because he was concieved by it, but he was not the Father, just as you are not your father, but you do have his very makeup in you.

Now read verse 3

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

The being the first two verses are referring to, made all things, yet Christ himself was made. This is not talking of Christ, this is talking of "in the begining"! It even points this out twice. All the old testament points to Yahweh as the creator, saying he did it with HIS hands, and I have pointed out with many verses that Yahweh was not Christ, Yahweh is the Father.

Christ was made at the moment of his conception, but since God mapped out his plan before even creating the Angels, Christ was pre-destined before the foundation of the Earth, but was not made manifest until the his life on Earth amongst the Apostles....

1Peter 1:20 Who verily was foreordained (prognostico) before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,


G4267 - proginosko (prog-in-oce'-ko) : from 4253 and 1097; to know beforehand, i.e. foresee:--foreknow (ordain), know (before).

This is how God can say prophetically in Genesis, "let us make man in our image", even before Christ was created, because that creating in the image of God is still an ongoing process, and takes place through Christ, allowing God's spirit to dwell in us through his Sacrifice. God foreknew Christ, just as the prophecies in the Psalm point out also, just as God foreknew Jeremiah before his birth, even though Jeremiah was at that point non-existant...

JEREMIAH 1:4 Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

The scriptures also say the saints of God were predestined also before our existence....

Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

As always, I hope this at least gets people thinking and examining their beliefs, even though some seem too afraid to even read what I have written

reply to post by doctorex


I see you gave no thought or response to what I posted above. Here's a better concept of how to look at it.

"In the beginning, God (Elohim; Family of God) created the heavens and the earth."

"Then God (Elohim) said, "Let US make man in OUR image."

These verses are taken out of Genesis 1. Elohim represents the "family of God"... not Jehovah alone or the Father alone. The family of God consists of the Father and the Son and that was the case here too. It was the Father and the Word (spokesperson of the Father) who made up "Elohim". The word "Father" wasn't even used to represent Jehovah of the Old Testament and Christ constantly claimed authority that only Jehovah of the OT had. The Father was revealed in the NT by the Word/Son manifest in the flesh. Just as John the Baptist came to reveal the coming Messiah... the Messiah reveals the Father to all.

reply to post by Locoman8

Jesus said of Himself, "I am the good shepherd" (John 10:11). David, in the first verse of the famous 23rd Psalm, declared that "The LORD (YHWH) is my shepherd." Jesus claimed to be judge of all men and nations (John 5:22, 27). Yet Joel 3:12 says the LORD (YHWH) "will sit to judge all... nations."

Pastors also are shepards, that doesn't make them Yahweh. The scriptures also say man will judge even angels, that also doesn't make them Yahweh.

Jesus said, "I am the light of the world" (John 8:12). Isaiah 60:19 says, "The LORD will be to you an everlasting light, and your God your glory." Also, David says in Psalm 27.1, "The LORD (YHWH) is my light."

Revealtion 21 says that both the lamb and God will be the light of the world, it is not confined to one or the other.

Jesus asked in prayer that the Father would share His eternal glory: "O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was" (John 17:5). Yet Isaiah 42:8 says, "I am the LORD, that is My name; and My glory I will not give to another."

That is simply a mistranslation, the words "I had" in the greek is one word, meaning "had", and the word "with" is not there. This is talking of the glory God had before even the foundation of the world. In reality it says, Glorify me with yourself, with the glory had before the foundation of the world. It is translated by believers in the trinity.

There is no question that Jesus understood Himself as the LORD (YHWH) of the Old Testament.

When Jesus was arrested, His use of the same term had an electrifying effect on those in the arresting party. "Now when He said to them, 'I am He,' they drew back and fell to the ground" (John 18:6). Notice here that "He" is in italics, meaning the word was added by the translators and isn't in the original wording. However, their attempt to make Jesus' answer more grammatically correct obscures the fact that He was likely again claiming to be the "I AM" of the Old Testament Scriptures.

You are forgetting that Christ said many times that his words were not his own, but the words of the Father.

The Jews confronted Jesus on another occasion, asking Him, "How long do You keep us in doubt? If you are the Christ [the prophecied Messiah], tell us plainly" (John 10:24). Jesus' answer is quite revealing: "I told you, and you do not believe" (verse 25). He had indeed confirmed His divine identity on a previous occasion (John 5:17-18).

Jesus adds, "The works that I do in My Father's name, they bear witness of Me" (John 10:25). The works He did were miracles that only God could do. They could not refute the miraculous works Jesus did.

I don't doubt Christ's divine origin.

He made another statement that incensed them: "I and My Father are one" (verse 30). That is, the Father and Jesus were both divine. Again, there was no mistaking the intent of what He said, because "then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him" (verse 31).

They were in complete unity, that doesn't make them the same being. I thought you even believed that?

Jesus countered, "Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?" The Jews responded, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God" (verses 32-33).

And what did Christ say in reply? He told them it was the will of God for all to made Elohim.

Jesus claimed authority to forgive sins.
Christ claimed power to raise the dead.
Jesus accepted honor and worship.
Jesus instructed us to pray in His name.

Now what do you say to that?

I say I completely agree, but that doesn't make Christ Yahweh.

Okay, I have answered your points. Could you please address mine?

Originally posted by Locoman8
reply to post by doctorex

 

I see you gave no thought or response to what I posted above.

I was in the process before your response. I see you haven't answered any of my Questions?

And I've already addressed the "let us make man in our image" verse.

[edit on 1/10/09 by doctorex]

reply to post by doctorex


I don't believe Christ and the Father are the same being. I'm saying the Father is not the Jehovah of the OT... That would be Jesus. Why would Jesus need to reveal the Father if He was already known to the Jews from the OT scriptures/prophets/laws?

Also note that Jesus said He was "Lord of the Sabbath". What does lord mean in this sense? It means "master". He's the master of the Sabbath because He created it with the other Laws and Commandments.

Originally posted by doctorex

1) If Yahweh was Christ....Then why is the very being Christ is now sitting on the right hand of called Yahweh?

The NT does not mention Jehovah as the Father. It identifies simply with the "Father" so Jesus is at the right hand of the Father. Where the word "God" is used in the NT, the greek "Theos" is used. This is not the greek word for "Jehovah" or "YHWH".

2) If Yahweh was Christ....Why did Paul say that Christ did not glorify himself to the position of High Priest, but that it was Yahweh?

Once again, the "Father" gave that position to Christ.

3) If both Peter and Paul point out that Yahweh was the Father, and Christ was his Son, who is wrong? Them, or you?

Please point out where they actually say that YHWH was the Father?

4) Was Christ made by the Father?

The human form of Christ was begotten by the Father but the spiritual being of the "Word" has always been in existence.

5) Can Yahweh (the very meaning of the word is eternal and self existent) die?

His death was not permanent as the 2nd death will be. The physical form of YHWH, Jesus was just as vunerable to death as we are, but note that this was only a temporary unconciousness of the body. He did awaken back to spiritual form and is once again in an eternal form on the right hand of the Father.

6) If it is Yahweh who sustains everything, and Yahweh is Christ, then who sustained everything while Christ was dead for three days and three nights, just as he said he would be, and how could Christ be raised by the Father (according to scripture) when Christ himself said he had faith that Yahweh would resurrect him from the dead? (as I will now point out referring to Psalm 16)

The Father sustained everything for the 3 days and nights He was in the tomb. The Father is still the "All Powerful Being".

7) In Acts 2 , why does Peter tell the Jews that the person in Psalm 16 is prophetic of Christ talking to his Father, and the person in that Psalm tha Christ is talking to is YAHWEH...

Because in the OT, the Jews expected a simple human to be a savior of Israel and only knew the OT God, Jehovah. Thus, David thought of the Messiah as the Son of Jehovah... the only God he knew. As I pointed out, Jesus came to reveal the Father.... unknown to the Jews.

There.... I answered your questions.

Originally posted by Locoman8
reply to post by doctorex

 

I don't believe Christ and the Father are the same being. I'm saying the Father is not the Jehovah of the OT... That would be Jesus. Why would Jesus need to reveal the Father if He was already known to the Jews from the OT scriptures/prophets/laws?

But the new testament scriptures point out plainly that Christ was not Yahweh. Christ is currently sitting at the right hand of Yahweh. It says Christ glorified not himself to the position of High Priest, but that it was Yahweh who did it. That last quote alone proves Christ is not Yahweh, or the scriptures are caught in a circular lie. How do you explain that?

Christ did reveal the Father, he did it further. If the Old testament was only about Christ, then what was God doing during this time? Twiddling his thumbs?

Also note that Jesus said He was "Lord of the Sabbath". What does lord mean in this sense? It means "master". He's the master of the Sabbath because He created it with the other Laws and Commandments.

He didn't create the law. Jesus is Lord of Sabbath. You know what the Sabbath symbolizes, and who will be Lord of Lords during that time.

1) If Yahweh was Christ....Then why is the very being Christ is now sitting on the right hand of called Yahweh?

The NT does not mention Jehovah as the Father. It identifies simply with the "Father" so Jesus is at the right hand of the Father. Where the word "God" is used in the NT, the greek "Theos" is used. This is not the greek word for "Jehovah" or "YHWH".

Yet I proved they are quoting old testament scriptures where the word Yahweh is used, thereby identifying who it is talking about.

2) If Yahweh was Christ....Why did Paul say that Christ did not glorify himself to the position of High Priest, but that it was Yahweh?

Once again, the "Father" gave that position to Christ.

And the scriptures show that person was Yahweh, proving he is the Father.

3) If both Peter and Paul point out that Yahweh was the Father, and Christ was his Son, who is wrong? Them, or you?

Please point out where they actually say that YHWH was the Father?

I have, they quote old testament scriptures pointing to the father where the word YHWH is used. For instance, Peter quoted this verse, saying it was God the Father speaking to Christ

Psalms 110:1 A Psalm of David. The LORD (Yahweh) said unto my Lord (Christ), Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

4) Was Christ made by the Father?

The human form of Christ was begotten by the Father but the spiritual being of the "Word" has always been in existence.

So it's the trinity minus 1?

5) Can Yahweh (the very meaning of the word is eternal and self existent) die?

His death was not permanent as the 2nd death will be. The physical form of YHWH, Jesus was just as vunerable to death as we are, but note that this was only a temporary unconciousness of the body. He did awaken back to spiritual form and is once again in an eternal form on the right hand of the Father.

The very meaning of the word Yahweh proves your reasoning to be false. Also, is the wages of sin temporary unconsciousness of the body, or death? Are you saying your payment for sin has not been paid in full?

6) If it is Yahweh who sustains everything, and Yahweh is Christ, then who sustained everything while Christ was dead for three days and three nights, just as he said he would be, and how could Christ be raised by the Father (according to scripture) when Christ himself said he had faith that Yahweh would resurrect him from the dead? (as I will now point out referring to Psalm 16)

The Father sustained everything for the 3 days and nights He was in the tomb. The Father is still the "All Powerful Being".

I agree.

7) In Acts 2 , why does Peter tell the Jews that the person in Psalm 16 is prophetic of Christ talking to his Father, and the person in that Psalm that Christ is talking to is YAHWEH...

Because in the OT, the Jews expected a simple human to be a savior of Israel and only knew the OT God, Jehovah. Thus, David thought of the Messiah as the Son of Jehovah... the only God he knew. As I pointed out, Jesus came to reveal the Father.... unknown to the Jews.

You are talking of the word of God, prophecy, not David's , surely God knew God. You are saying that the word of God is flawed. Well that's up to you I guess. That doesn't explain why the Psalm is prophetic of Christ talking to his Father, and his father is identified by Yahweh. Remember Christ even quoted the scriptures, saying the same thing. Surely Christ knew who the Father was, even if David didn't.

[edit on 2/10/09 by doctorex]

elohim is a I and a WE, the WE is still coming from the I,
but the I is always lived by the WE

glorification means becoming them both.

It's not that difficult to understand;

It's like one brain with different faces coming from it,
those faces are not the same face, but they act from the same mind.
Jacobs stone

The devil is opposite to it, it's different heads that go against each other,
so actually killing it's own = different brains = lies = god is divided.

son of man is in levels:

all righteouss prophets , jesus came back from the promised land (oneness = glorification), acting as a human, as a theatre role, fullfilling he father's wish, but always as one. Prophets were declared sons and righteouss, then they left,
jesus stayed but not as jesus but as 'one'
What is one can decide not to know or not ?
religion doubts the capacaties of god to much sometimes.
One means One. Not 5. or 3. One means One.

the other prophets
all people ever to go into salvation (paradise, later kingdom)

(a human can not really proof something exsisted, but can build)

The son doesn't exsist, that's were the father comes alive.
The son becomes one, it means through the son,
the son can known there is only god.
son means growth, growing One in yourself.

The Quran and bible do not contradict.
The father does not begot. Just as Leviticus and Isaiah mentioned,
there is only God. One. Not 5. Not 3.
but still many.

Love God, he is one, all
or symbology to use right. same pattern in all books.

[edit on 2-10-2009 by pasttheclouds]

reply to post by AshleyD

That's what John 1 is saying. They're two separate entities (because He was WITH God) that unite as one (because He also IS God). That's actually what most Christians believe I thought? I don't know of too many Christians who literally believe Yahweh became Jesus.

Yahweh, the Self Existent One, strictly speaking, is always Himself, but has many attributes that manifest themselves in a semi-autonomous way, as in Wisdom, and Justice, and Mercy, and the Word. The Word is the active aspect of God, and in a way is God, but not all of what God is. In this one case, God allowed this one aspect of Himself to become a person in actuality, by separating Jesus as a fully self conscious being in human form, though he retained a spiritual unity with God, and so was God still.
After we have gone through our rehabilitation, way off in the future, and become like the inhabitants of the Garden of Eden before the fall, there will be a reunification, and our Lord will be revealed to us as God, the one and only God.
When Moses went up on the mountain, with the elders, to see God, and saw Him, that was the active aspect of God, being otherwise what could be considered as the Word, who later became Jesus. So, by my way of thinking, you could say Jesus was Yahweh, but in an indirect sort of way.
Exodus 24:10 "and they saw the God of Israel. Under his feet there was something like a pavement made of sapphire, clear like the sky itself."
The New Testament later claimed that no one has seen the God, so who did they see? Jesus said if you have seen me, you seen the Father.


[edit on 2-10-2009 by jmdewey60]

No one saw god as the total of everything,
because at that moment you die the lies,
and know that god is one.

Daniel prophesied the prince would know not
the god of his forefathers. And the prince are the sons. Michael.

reply to post by doctorex


I think my "Seventh Day Advent" friend here said it right. Jesus, as the Word, was the representative of the Father. Jehovah, in the sense of the spoken Word, or physically seeing God, is Jesus. As I said, God (Elohim) is the Family of God which currently consists of Jesus and the Father. Jehovah may represent the Father but I maintain that it was Jesus who was Jehovah in physical form (burning bush, etc.), or through spoken words (prophets, patriarchs). Is that such a far-fetched idea? And your comment on the trinity minus 1 is not fair. The trinity says there are three divisions of one God. I say there are two members of the God Family and they are one in spirit and mind. They are completely separate beings.