Why Christ was NOT Yahweh of the Old testament

I have noticed that a few people on here believe that Christ was the God of the Old Testament, that he was Yahweh, or Jehovah. Though many also believe (rightly in my opinion) that Christ and His Father are separate individuals, it seems they are still kind of trapped in the trinity by saying that Christ also eternally existed. I thought I'd share my beliefs, and what I have learned on the subject

Firstly as most know when you see the word LORD or GOD in capitals in most English translations, this is translated from the Hebrew word Yahweh, or Jehovah. It is Yahweh who speaks to the prophets and Patriarchs of the Old testament. Many believe this was Christ simply because in the Bible it says that Christ was the word of God, but he was the word of God made FLESH, it doesn't say that any word before the birth of Christ was Jesus.

First I'll tackle the Yahweh problem, by showing the meaning of the word....

3068 - Yhovah (yeh-ho-vaw) : from 1961; (the) self-Existent or Eternal; Jehovah, Jewish national name of God:--Jehovah, the Lord. Compare 3050, 3069.

Yahweh is self-existent, meaning he wasn't made, he sustains himself and everything else, and he is eternal, meaning he has existed for eternity, and will always exist.

Christ is the son of God, he was made by God, he didn't make himself, otherwise he would not be his firstborn son. Also Christ died for our sins, and the Eternal cannot die. If Christ was Yahweh, and he was dead for three days and three nights who sustained existence for that period of time?

JOHN 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, an the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

The above quote is talking about Yahweh, and since everything that was made was made by this being, and Christ himself was made, this is not talking about Christ, Christ is not mentioned until the 14th verse.

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Also even the new testament makes it plain that it was God the Father himself who was talking to the prophets of the old testament, and did not speak through Christ until the days of the Apostles...

HEBREWS 1
1 God who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, through whom also he makes the ages;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

With that last verse, I'll show that Yahweh was not Christ, because Christ is currently sitting at the right-hand of Yahweh, proving that he isn't Yahweh.

David said prophetically that his lord (Christ) would one day sit at the right hand of the LORD (Yahweh).

Psalms 110:1 A Psalm of David. The LORD (Yahweh) said unto my Lord (Christ), Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

Also it is Yahweh who says that Christ is his son...

Psalms 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD (Yahweh) hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

People may say that this is God simply talking about Solomon, but it is also prophetic of Christ, and Paul points out that this very quote is Yahweh talking to Christ....

HEBREWS 5:5 So also Christ glorified not himself to be made a high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, today have I begotten thee.

The above scripture plainly states that Christ did not glorify himself, but that he was glorified by YAHWEH!....proving once again that Christ was NOT Yahweh.

Peter also pointed out that it was Yahweh speaking to Christ in the book of Acts...

Acts 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD (Yahweh) said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.


Some say that since Christ was the word of God, it was him who was speaking in the Old testament, but it was Yahweh, and I've just shown that Yahweh is not Christ. Name any scripture you like, it says "the LORD (Yahweh) said....", and as I pointed out above, Paul said it was God the Father who was speaking to Israel through the prophets, and it wasn't until their days (the Apostles) that God the father spoke to them through His son.... "God who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son" (HEBREWS 1:1-2)


People also mistakenly think that it was Christ who did the physical creating, but that is not true also, since any creating it always said to be done by Yahweh. It was Yahweh who formed Adam from the dust of the earth, it was Yahweh who breathed the breath of life into him, it was Yahweh who told Job he laid the foundations of the earth. I could go on but you get the picture.


People mistake scriptures talking of Christ who made the worlds etc, not understanding the word "worlds" means ages, and they concentrate on the physical creation, not understanding exactly what it is that God is creating, and is still an on going process, his family. It is through Christ he does this creating, because without Christ's sacrifice for our sins, he cannot dwell in us through his Holy spirit to create a right heart and mind in us, allowing us eventually to become born sons of God, just like Christ, but I've been over the creation part of this topic a million times. I just wanted to show why I believe that Yahweh was NOT and IS not Christ. Yahweh is God the Father.

I recommend reading Ron Weinland's book "2008-God's Final Witness" free online, chapter 7 called "the mystery of God revealed", which goes into more detail.

www.the-end.com...

People will now undoubtedly say that what I have written above is incorrect simply because they disagree with Ron Weinland, even though everything I quoted came from scripture, but that is another story


[edit on 30/9/09 by doctorex]

ISAIAH 45:11 Thus saith the LORD (Yahweh), the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me.
12 I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.

The hands of Yahweh did the creating of the physical earth etc, not Christ, and in the same chapter Yahweh says....

9 Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?

18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.


Yahweh said at this point, in the time of the old testament, that he did the forming, that those who say he has no hands are striving with their creator, and that he was The Eternal, the LORD (Yahweh) and there were no other Elohim (Gods).

If this was Christ speaking, then where was God the father?

Some say that this is God saying that no others were to be worshiped, but if this was Christ speaking, would he say that he and only he should be worshiped? What about his Father who he always gave glory to? And again, if this is God the Father speaking, then was Christ not to be worshiped, or was he not yet created?

This is God the Father speaking, and Christ was not yet made, because his word had not yet become flesh, that is the ONLY outcome you can come to that doesn't contradict scripture.

You make some very good points.

There was no Trinity God under the Israelite God Yahweh, yet Jesus was in existence in heaven. So how then is he suddenly part of a Trinity after he came to the earth? He just proved to be a separate being by doing that.

Points to ponder.

I for one won't let myself be fooled by some old men that met in the forth century argued amongst themselves and decided that we were to believe in a Trinity. And they would kill anybody who said otherwise, because they were branded as heretics.

Christians really need to think independently of the clergy that has perpetuated this lie for centuries.

BIBLE Quote
John 6 v 38-40
Bread of Life
38For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

Jesus is the Son of God, the perfect manifestation of God, Jesus is divine, and Gets his power from God, He prays and worships God. So Jesus can't be God.

reply to post by doctorex


Do you forget that Jesus Himself came in the flesh to reveal the Father? If this is so, how is your point valid? Who was the "US" in Genesis? The Father and the Son... that's who. Jesus created everything and the Father mapped the plans out. God was the architect and Jesus was the carpenter. Thus, even the OT scriptures showing that God created the heavens and earth makes my point very valid.

You follow Ronald Weinland's teachings and he followed Herbert W. Armstrong's teachings yet he goes against some of the very things Armstrong taught and this notion of Jesus not existing before his birth is one of them. There are plenty of scripture out there to disprove your point thus bringing us back to what it all means. If Jesus (the Word) existed with the Father in the beginning and the Father wasn't revealed until Jesus came in the flesh, who was Jehovah? Jehovah was Christ as the "Word of God". The word Elohim represents the "Family of God", not God Himself. So when "Elohim" is used in scripture, it represents the Father and Son.... and soon will include the Saints of God.

I have respect for you but the blind can't lead the blind or they will fall in a ditch. You're following the teachings of a blind man who has been proven wrong repeatedly. Pull the plank out of your eye my friend.

reply to post by doctorex
Whatever you said, I disagree.
I haven't read it yet, but I just know I disagree anyway.
The title should be a tip-off.
Let's see, Jesus is not Jehovah. Hmm. OK, I can see why any JW would think that's ok.
The more I think about it the more I tend towards the Jesus=Jehovah thing, at least in the God in the Flesh sort of way. But what God in the Flesh? Let's see, are there more than one God?
No. So that makes an awfully short list, I think.


[edit on 1-10-2009 by jmdewey60]

reply to post by doctorex


I agree with you. Whatever I read in the bible, that's how I interperate it.
I don't try to say, "it's not meant in a litteral way" . People try to change the word of the bible to suit their personal bliefs and that's not right.

John 3:16 - King James Version
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

That means, God CREATED his son. Begotten, means created. God did not manifest himself on earth as Jesus. And that is fact.

So well done to the op.

You can't argue with scripture. If what I said was wrong scripturally, then show it.

I love how he diverted around this qoute



" and the word was made flesh and dwelt among us "


You see this is what the prophets said about the end times. People would spread lies, denounce Christ, and twist scripture how they feel it needs twisting. personal interpretation leads to destruction...


If the word was God and made flesh, than who is the human that God put hmself into? Jesus. a literal 10 year old can understand this.


And like locoman said..


" Let us make man in our image "

God said in genesis. was God talking to aliens? No. He was talking to Christ.

They are three in one ...


I'm gonna post more later when I have time.. and I hope readers realize how easy it is to see the truth.

Anything Satan can do to denounce Christ as God he will. This was predicted as you know by scripture itself and the prophets..

and what this does is sets up the antichrist doctrine. Because God according to the OT will come to visit his people, so if it's not Christ who is it?

antichrist..

This is what is happening. Antichrist will use the same doctrine.

peace.

reply to post by JesusisTruth


Anyone who thinks differently to you, or tries to find truth and looks st the facts, are Evil or use Antichrist doctrine.

No one is trying to denounce God here.
Just trying to find clarity.

Originally posted by JesusisTruth
I love how he diverted around this qoute



" and the word was made flesh and dwelt among us "

How did I divert around it? I quoted it.

If the word was God and made flesh, than who is the human that God put hmself into? Jesus. a literal 10 year old can understand this.

Yes Jesus is the word made flesh, but he is not Yahweh. A Bible is the word of God put on paper, but neither is your Bible Yahweh.

And like locoman said..

" Let us make man in our image "

God said in genesis. was God talking to aliens? No. He was talking to Christ.

Much of what is written in the word of God is prophetic, and locoman of all people should know what God is creating, Elohim. But no doubt he may get stuck on this passage and refuse to address all the other contradictions.

Out of curiosity, since nobody wants to actually address the points I brought up in the OP, perhaps you could answer a few simple questions....



1) If Yahweh was Christ....Then why is the very being Christ is now sitting on the right hand of called Yahweh?

2) If Yahweh was Christ....Why did Paul say that Christ did not glorify himself to the position of High Priest, but that it was Yahweh?

3) If both Peter and Paul point out that Yahweh was the Father, and Christ was his Son, who is wrong? Them, or you?

4) Was Christ made by the Father?

5) Can Yahweh (the very meaning of the word is eternal and self existent) die?

6) If it is Yahweh who sustains everything, and Yahweh is Christ, then who sustained everything while Christ was dead for three days and three nights, just as he said he would be, and how could Christ be raised by the Father (according to scripture) when Christ himself said he had faith that Yahweh would resurrect him from the dead? (as I will now point out referring to Psalm 16)

7) In Acts 2 , why does Peter tell the Jews that the person in Psalm 16 is prophetic of Christ talking to his Father, and the person in that Psalm tha Christ is talking to is YAHWEH...

Psalms 16: 1 [Michtam of David.] Preserve me, O God: for in thee do I put my trust.
2 O my soul, thou hast said unto the LORD, Thou art my Lord: my goodness extendeth not to thee;
3 But to the saints that are in the earth, and to the excellent, in whom is all my delight.
4 Their sorrows shall be multiplied that hasten after another god: their drink offerings of blood will I not offer, nor take up their names into my lips.
5 The LORD is the portion of mine inheritance and of my cup: thou maintainest my lot.
6 The lines are fallen unto me in pleasant places; yea, I have a goodly heritage.
7 I will bless the LORD, who hath given me counsel: my reins also instruct me in the night seasons.
8 I have set the LORD always before me: because he is at my right hand, I shall not be moved.
9 Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope.
10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
11 Thou wilt shew me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore.


How do you guys reconcile these obvious contradictions of your belief? I can show more if you like, but I would be interested in your answers to these 7 questions first, and I doubt I'll respond again until those questions are answered. If anything, I hope at least that these questions get you thinking and examining your beliefs, as I have had to do, and admit past error.

[edit on 1/10/09 by doctorex]

Originally posted by jinx880101
reply to post by JesusisTruth

 

Anyone who thinks differently to you, or tries to find truth and looks st the facts, are Evil or use Antichrist doctrine.

No one is trying to denounce God here.
Just trying to find clarity.

Thank you Jinx, I'm glad someone can see that.

there is a difference between the jesus before glorification,
and after.

or why would there be glorification ?
(and glorification was BEFORE the cross, which is important)

after he was one with god, and it is god that lived through him.
before he was a son of god. just like david was a son of god (psalms),
the son of god, is the son of man, one one level
which are the prophets one one level, and the other level everyone who goes to 'heaven'...it means you, yourself, as a son, if you wish to be one.

on another level it means confirming the father as one,
in everything around you, confirming the body of the son and father, they are one,
the body of christ is all of gods creation. (that's the bible saying this)
it's actually forgiving god/life. it's becoming one with life

the word 'only begotten son' take care with it,
christians philosophies mix everything up and believe the chaos they
create, by mistranslations and doctrine...


reply to jesusistruth:
love and oneness and forgiving/understanding is not antichrist
it's what the antichrist as group will blame oneness to be,
which is a big turn from the truth jesus brought
about forgiving life and all that is in it. life= god (delusion was promised)
jesus said 'believe in me, or in my works i do'
fruits are important. if someone forgives that is his fruit.
forgives = understanding = growth.



[edit on 1-10-2009 by pasttheclouds]

You are looking for reasons that Jesus is not Yahweh through literal words that carnal men wrote. Be careful not to follow the scribes.

Jesus and Yahweh have two different natures. The same as us, humans, have two different natures. You could say that our Earthly bodies (which contain an ego) are our Yahweh (the nature that gets tempted) and our Spiritual bodies are our Jesus (my blood is your blood) which is our Spiritual nature.

You dont need any quotes from the Bible to figure this...look for the seeds that each has sown....you will find a Divine nature in one and an Earthly nature in the other. Just as so, we are entwined with both.

Yahweh is not the most high....the fact that El gives Yahweh his inheritance is proof of this.

The fact that Yahweh is not perfect is also proof of this.



[edit on 1-10-2009 by LeoVirgo]

Yahweh created Jesus before time and space(physical matter) existed making him very special. But he was created.
Unless you think that God is the equivalent of some type of spiritual blob that can release part of his being and have it come back and join him later on.

That's not what the bible teaches.

The bible teaches unity of thought and purpose, not dual souls in a spiritual blob as one entity.

This thought is brought out early in the bible

Genesis 2:24

24That's why a man will leave his own father and mother. He marries a woman, and the two of them become like one person.

Follow that line of reasoning to
John 10:30

I and the Father are one.

Oneness in unity and purpose not actual existence.

Some of you guys need to break free from the 4th century dogma influenced by rampant paganism. If you would only read the bible and allow the holy spirit to give you a sliver of independence you would have a spiritual epiphany.
I know so many Christians that have had that light bulb moment and it is very liberating for them.

reply to post by Blue_Jay33


So you see Yahweh as the Most High, The Monad of all, The Perfect One, Divine and Holy?

Originally posted by LeoVirgo
Jesus and Yahweh have two different natures. The same as us, humans, have two different natures. You could say that our Earthly bodies (which contain an ego) are our Yahweh (the nature that gets tempted) and our Spiritual bodies are our Jesus (my blood is your blood) which is our Spiritual nature.

You dont need any quotes from the Bible to figure this...look for the seeds that each has sown....you will find a Divine nature in one and an Earthly nature in the other. Just as so, we are entwined with both.

Here's a nice quote from Philo:
page 83
I have also, on one occasion, heard a more ingenious train of reasoning from my own soul, which was accustomed frequently to be seized with a certain divine inspiration, even concerning matters which it could not explain even to itself; which now, if I am able to remember it accurately, I will relate. It told me that in the one living and true God there were two supreme and primary powers—goodness and authority; and that by his goodness he had created every thing, and by his authority he governed all that he had created; and that the third thing which was between the two, and had the affect of bringing them together was reason, for that it was owing to reason that God was both ruler and good.
Now, of this ruling authority and of this goodness, being two distinct powers, the cherubim were the symbols. . .
Page 803
The name cherubim designates the two original virtues which belong to the Deity, namely, his creative and his royal virtues. The one of which has the title of God, the other, or the royal virtue, that of Lord. Now the form of the creative power is a peaceable, and gentle, and beneficent virtue; but the royal power is a legislative, and chastising, and correcting virtue.


[edit on 1-10-2009 by jmdewey60]

Originally posted by JesusisTruth
" and the word was made flesh and dwelt among us "
if the word was God and made flesh, than who is the human that God put himself into? Jesus. a literal 10 year old can understand this.

John 10:36 do you say about the one whom the Father set apart and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’? (NetBible Translation)

This says set apart where the King James says, sanctified. Another way to understand sanctified, is separated.
The way I look at it, the Word was an aspect of the unseeable God, personified, who God made a person, in actuality (out of His own being), in the person of Jesus.
God is not a person, in the normal sense of the word.

John 8:42 (King James Version) Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
John 16:27, 28 (King James Version) For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God. I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.
John 8:16 But if I judge, my evaluation is accurate, because I am not alone when I judge, but I and the Father who sent me do so together. (NetBible Translation)
John 10:30 The Father and I are one.” (NetBible Translation)


[edit on 1-10-2009 by jmdewey60]

reply to post by jmdewey60


Hello

First, lets talk about these Cherubim. This symbolism existed in other cultures. The four faces line up with the 4 carnal points of the sky. These constellations held the 4 different faces that ironically enough mirror the cherubim creature. The idea also would work that they represent north, south, east, and west. If there was a creature that represented guarding a gate, Cherubim would be a perfect gate keeper being this image covers the entire sky. Im not saying this is what the Cherubim represent, but it does seem that this creature existed before the time of the OT.

All I can say about virtues of God is what I experience. I experience having to be humbled because Thee is humble. I experience having to be love because Thee is love. I experience having to not be prideful nor jealous because Thee is neither of those. If part of Gods virtues are legislation and chastizing then our Governments should be right up there on the Holy list.

Our words for Holy and Divine can not hold a humble enough meaning for why God would be these things. God is not this judge sitting in the sky. God guides us, our highest self Thee is....ready to walk the walk with us, ready to stand beside us, ready to lead the way in being perfected.

Legislation involves force. What good is correcting someone without them understanding the reason for correcting them. We are in a world that allows us to come to being corrected in our own time, our own pace. To think that is just going to be yanked away for some does not seem right to me. From researching NDE's, people seem to judge themselves with their own Divine Eye within them.

Your talking about the same kind of God that gave Eve a beautiful Tree and told her to not eat of it. Then poor bad Eve gets booted for not obeying. This is not the Holy One that I have come to know. Even though I dont talk the Adam and Eve story to be a literal occurrence as it is read...I use that example to show how early this idea and image of a forceful God was occurring amongst the people.

If love is not jealous and prideful...and Satan is supposed to be the dark one that leads bad things like killing...how can God, who is love, be prideful and jealous.

Many cant wrap their minds around the idea that God has no reason to be jealous or prideful. Go find the most humbled person....then ask yourself , why arent they prideful and jealous.

Do you defend the idea that God ordered men to kill other men? Is this correctiveness to you? Just because God is God doesnt mean Thee acts in such ways as showing power and force. Its so much so that we have millions of people that follow beliefs when they have no real experiences to back those beliefs.

God is patient and consistent. God isnt worrying Thee self with who is not walking in the way....Thee knows the pattern has been woven in such a way none will be lost. So there needs no force. Most fear God so much they are afraid to really seek Thee. So God waits....

Is your most inner core being a nature of chastising?



[edit on 1-10-2009 by LeoVirgo]

reply to post by LeoVirgo
I'm sure on this forum you have had some kind of debate with atheists who do not believe in the existence of any god (maybe because they can not get away from the idea that if there was a god, he would have to be evil).
Well, tell me how your argument goes over, with them. I mean, do they all of a sudden find your god more acceptable, because somehow He has not been tainted by the mundane goings on of this world?
That is just not possible, having a god, no matter how high up in the sky he is, that is not somehow responsible for what has happened for so many thousands of years on this planet.