The first throes of Civil War are here

Originally posted by concernedcitizan
reply to post by ElectricUniverse

 

I don't think our founding fathers foresaw the rise of "professional" politicians making a living off the public teat. Not to mention cushy corporate jobs when their "public service" ended. Better we vote our neighbors, friends, co-workers, ourselves into government. But the cards are stacked against us aren't they?

I believe our forefathers, insulated by their focus at the time, may not have foreseen the advent of the 'celebrity-driven' 'career-politician' class of citizen. However I suspect they saw it coming, and - for reasons we may not agree on - were either unwilling or unable to resist the overall negative effect.

Our first challenge is to recognize that in the 21st century paradigm, the reality of any leadership provided by career politicians is a matter of publicity. If that statement is taken as intended, it leads me to think that we almost certainly can not confidently trust anything we are told by them or anyone to whom their influence extends.

A movement without leaders, must no longer be considered impossible. Leaders are targets, and face moral hazards that few in history have ever overcome.

Originally posted by Maxmars
............
A movement without leaders, must no longer be considered impossible. Leaders are targets, and face moral hazards that few in history have ever overcome.

Regular people are also targets, and they also face moral hazards that few in history have ever overcome.

So what exactly are you proposing? anarchy?

reply to post by Maxmars


To tell you what I think. I think when the founders started they had very high intentions. Before the constitution was written they were operating on the Declaration of independence. During that time the articles of confederation were in effect but that proved ineffective and they saw all kinds problems they wanted to fix and knew they could not. So they set up a roman based system instead. With a few tweaks. Then to cement the hope that in the future humanity would evolve to the point of a government free from tyranny could be formed they deliberated on what would be the right Ten amendments. The bill of rights.

Now the year is 1779 the government has been solidified and we will not go back to living under the crowns way but we are not living under the ideas of liberty the way they wanted the reason they went to war. But inside the bill of rights is our salvation. Along with the amenability of the constitution is the tools such as the first and second amendments which give us the ability to create a government that will never again succumb to tyranny.

The trouble with that is that the only way a government will be guaranteed tyranny free is if the people are willing to take an active roll in the legislation they will be expected to abide by. How much Tax should we pay for great roads, strong military, decent schools? What laws should forbid us from driving with only 1 year of drivers ed and what laws should determine how old a person needs to be to start drinking alcohol? Laws like these need OUR input.

When you give your complete trust to another person to speak for you and to pass laws for you you lose you right to speak for yourself... You give your permission to be subjugated. Until we are willing to become more active in our legislative process we will run the risk of tyranny. Only when we are willing to speak for ourselves will we be free.....

At least that is what I think.



[edit on 25-9-2009 by titorite]

reply to post by titorite


Cogent and acceptable thinking I believe.

How 'representative' is our "representative" government today? I feel comfortable inferring that it isn't very.

But to change that, and somehow magically eliminate the poison of celebrity glamor from the mix is the challenge. I think that without it. Politicians would lose interest in the 'career' idea which serves only to maintain inertia for the status quo. I don't know if I need to explain this, but I think that status quo is a cancer to any living representative government, it mirrors control. Where there is control there is exploitation. And the best position to exploit control is from the act of governance.

I can't trust them anymore. I wont vote for any (R)'s or (D)'s ANYMORE. Those parties (that party - really) is like having an moronic crack addict for a dependent - it's all about THEM.

[edit on 25-9-2009 by Maxmars]

Originally posted by titorite
...............
Then to cement the hope that in the future humanity would evolve to the point of a government free from tyranny could be formed they deliberated on what would be the right Ten amendments. The bill of rights.
.................

I am very certain the forefathers funded the United States, and it's government to be free of tyranny right from the start, not sometime down the road, which is why this is a Republic.

I am also certain, at least to a point, that the forefathers did not believe that "the future will guarantee a government free of tyranny."

The future doesn't guarantee anything but the passing of time, which is why they wrote the Constitution, and the Bill of rights within it back then, except for the later amendments, and they did not just wait for future generations to do so.

Originally posted by pluckynoonez

Dick Cheney made that famous and we all know what a national treasure he is.

Dick Cheney is my hero. Anyone that can shoot a lawyer in the face, hospitalizing him as a result and not get sued is got to be some sort of demigod or something. I am just going fishing with him, no telling what he could do with a treble hook and 30 feet of 25 lbs. test line.

Originally posted by Ahabstar

Originally posted by pluckynoonez

Dick Cheney made that famous and we all know what a national treasure he is.

Dick Cheney is my hero. Anyone that can shoot a lawyer in the face, hospitalizing him as a result and not get sued is got to be some sort of demigod or something. I am just going fishing with him, no telling what he could do with a treble hook and 30 feet of 25 lbs. test line.

How could you forget to mention he actually received an apology from the victim!

reply to post by ElectricUniverse


Well EL (If you don't mind the abbreviation) If I remember correctly the issue of slavery was put off for 20 years when this nation was founded which set us up for so much trouble afterwords... It leads me to believe that they DID set some things up to be entrusted to the future.

As for me?

I would propose a mix a representative government and Direct government.

Let coolers heads prevail in legislation while the common man is also given a direct voice.

How this could be accomplished?

I don't know call a constitutional convention...

I am just saying as long as you trust the likes of Barney Frank and the Former Ted Kennedy to speak for you well then... They are gonna pass laws THEY WANT not in the best interest of you or your desires...maybe even at your detriment.

Did you know the first time that income tax was passed the supreme court repealed it ? Do you know what congress did? They waited a few years for some supreme court justices to die and passed the legislation again!

That is what happens when you sacrifice your voice in legislation.

Eventually any government that lacks its peoples voice will devolve into a tyranny.

Originally posted by Ahabstar
Dick Cheney is my hero. Anyone that can shoot a lawyer in the face, hospitalizing him as a result and not get sued is got to be some sort of demigod or something. I am just going fishing with him, no telling what he could do with a treble hook and 30 feet of 25 lbs. test line.

For Ahabstar but all can enjoy.

A metacafe video

LINK....HEY ATS HOW ABOUT LIVELINK and METACAFE Embeding???

I started reading all the posts but the bickering became tiresome, so I had to give up, but I will say this:

The current situation in the US is less like civil war and much more like Fascism. Anyone with knowledge about Germany and Hitler, post WW1 and all the way to his suicide, cannot fail to see the increasing similarities with what happened there, and what is happening in the US (and elsewhere but more so in the US).

I'd also say that it is less like civil war and more like revolution. And revolution is what is needed, otherwise...

Jakarta is Coming.

I found your post very illuminating, very ominous.

It is disheartening to say the least, that when you speak to what OUGHT to be the concerns of any and every freedom loving human being, that in the midst of the responses you receive, some mindless cretins can only bring themselves to correct your spelling, grammar or sentence structure.

Those doomed souls will be the first ones to take the chip, drink the Fool-Aid, and bow down to take the oath of 'Good Comrade-Citizen'.

God help us all.

I categorically disagree with the premise of this thread.

There will be no civil war, no revolution.

What we are seeing is the fever pitched result of bigots and hate mongers hell bent on destroying the Obama legacy and American democracy.

Our great nation has triumphed in 2 World Wars, Civil unrest in the 60's. Viet Nam war protests of the 70's, the S&L failures in the 80's and the dot com bust of the 90's and Y2K.

The unwavering resolve and diversity of our great nation shall overcome this temporary span of tumult. We are resilient as a nation. And the pen is mightier than the sword.

Besides most of the unrest is perpetrated by the likes of Billy Bob Birther and his Teabaggin' bros......


We have ample food reserves in amber waves of grain, and water and fuel reserves within our geographic boundaries of sea to shining sea.

Fear is the enemy. Live your lives and ignore the doomsday, faux patriot nut jobs.
Put on the safety back on your muskets.

GOD Bless America.

Peace out...KK


[edit on 25-9-2009 by kinda kurious]

reply to post by kinda kurious


Seriously please explain how I am a bigot!

I have black brother in laws and Mexican nephews PLEASE SIR EXPLAIN TO ME MY BIGOTRY!

I wrote this thread explaining the signs of the times I see and you want to make it about race not me.

If you want to see bigotry I ask you to look into the mirror!

ANOTHER declaration of the outbreak of Civil War? Talk about crap or get off the pot already. Come on Shay, lead your rebellion. Lead your rebellion of ignorance so as to water the tree with your patriots blood. Remind all of us Americans what it means to stand up for freedom and liberty, so that we may remember it when the time comes that a real threat to those values has emerged.

Yet where does this anarchy exist? Where did it ever exist, except in the single instance of Massachusetts? And can history produce an instance of rebellion so honourably conducted? I say nothing of it's motives. They were founded in ignorance, not wickedness. God forbid we should ever be 20 years without such a rebellion. The people cannot be all, & always, well informed. The part which is wrong will be discontented in proportion to the importance of the facts they misconceive. ~ Thomas Jefferson

Letter from Thomas Jefferson to William S. Smith. Nov. 13, 1787

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/2e6b38e2137f.jpg[/atsimg]

reply to post by Lasheic


Jesus Pay attention.... I spoke of seeing the beginning signs not and all out outbreak.. Has reading comprehension gone to the wind?

The beginning throes?

And if you do not see the first signs then you do not understand the Boston tea party and the tea parties of today!

History has parallels. If you refuse to see them then fie on you!

reply to post by Donkey_Dean


You Obama lovers will play that fiddle until Rome burns to the ground. You elected him, he sucks, he sold all of you out, and he has not done one single thing you hoped he would. Deal with it. He lied to you, and you shouldn't be at all suprised about it.

Don't spout off rediculous crap like "he's the people's choice" People have no choice, you get that? You don't choose a damn thing. The media puts up a list of people, then thier "panel of experts" decide the rest for you. Thats how it works. You elected the person who would benefit the corporations and the banks. And you did that, becuase they have billions of dollars invested in learning how to manipulate you into purchasing a product. Only in this case that Product was a President. Got it? You voted for him becuase someone else wanted you too. Period.

And don't pull out the healthcrae fiasco as proof that he gives a damn about you. That is going to make the company I work for so much fracken money it would make your head spin. It has nothing to do with helping anyone. It has to do with money, a lot of money, it has to do with forcing every working person to pay the CEO of certain healthcare companies a royalty regardless if they get sick or not. So drop it. It's a load of crap. It was from the very start.

Does that spell it out for you at all?

Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for lunch.

Liberty is a well armed sheep contesting the outcome of that vote.


[edit on 25-9-2009 by aravoth]

reply to post by titorite


Ummm, the thread title.

By definition the Civil War was largely in part due to bigotry and intolerance.

Since you are suggesting one??????

5. The election of Abraham Lincoln.

Even though things were already coming to a head, when Lincoln was elected in 1860, South Carolina issued its “Declaration of the Causes of Secession.” They believed that Lincoln was anti-slavery and in favor of Northern interests. Before Lincoln was even president, seven states had seceded from the Union: South Carolina, Mississippi, Florida, Alabama, Georgia, Louisiana, and Texas.

americanhistory.about.com...

Sound familiar?





[edit on 25-9-2009 by kinda kurious]

reply to post by calcoastseeker


Make them American? Was Reagan the first administration to do that? Doesn't that encourage competition in the work force?

It wouldn't take much to have a civil war. The spark has already been created.

Originally posted by kinda kurious

By definition the Civil War was largely in part due to bigotry and intolerance.

Dude? You are aware that the term civil war is not exclusive to the US right?

You called me a bigot. Explain yourself.

Look at my post history look at my thread history. You called me a bigot right out of the gate. What is wrong with you!

I am no bigot sir but if race relations mean so much to you then you should take a long look in the mirror!

reply to post by kinda kurious


Oh that sounds fimiliar to me.....

What else looks and sounds fimiliar?

www.myconfinedspace.com...

There were also a number of southern states that threatened to "break away" if de-segregation came around.

Oh Im gettin' deja vu all over KK...

Mind you though its been 9 months and howmany threads threatening revolution and civil war?

It appears that the rightwing are incapable of focusing on the next election and arguing the real issues. When democracy kicks in not to their liking, its war all over again

SG

[edit on 25-9-2009 by Southern Guardian]