Overthrow the democratically elected president, "how patriotic"

Originally posted by dooper
Anytime one wishes to super stimulate the economy, one only has to drop taxes.

Because we all know stimulatng the economy in financial crises is lowering the taxes for cash and debt ravaged consumers only to save it or use it to pay off debt. Right. If Iv got a payment on my house coming up and Im up to my knees with other debt, do you really think Im going to blow off that other tax cut on goods? Really?

Joe has the tax withheld reduced by $60 a week. Joe will NOT put that in savings, he will spend it on goods and services.

This is a blatant assumption of yours. Consumer confidence dropped dramatically an continued to until just afew months ago. What makes you think all of sudden with that extra money these people are going to ignore their debt and blow it off?

Your solution Dooper, something pulled out of a fairy tale. This entire solution of yours is based on assumption.

[edit on 13-9-2009 by Southern Guardian]

Originally posted by PenandSword
Obama is a usurper and the whole system is corrupt. The people of America have every right to overthrow this illegitimate government .

Yes the american people do, but on what basis for illigetimacy is the point of my OP. Specifics.

Originally posted by Southern Guardian

This is a blatant assumption of yours. Consumer confidence dropped dramatically an continued to until just afew months ago. What makes you think all of sudden with that extra money these people are going to ignore their debt and blow it off?

Some will spend the money on BS crap, others will stash it away, some will try to pay down their debt.

The "blatant assumption" is that Obama and his cabinet felt that they knew what the American people would do with any money they'd get from the government and said, "screw 'em" and gave it to the banks, auto industries, etc.

Do you really think that the money given to the auto companies will be repaid to the American public?

reply to post by dooper


You are right on when it comes to lowering taxes having a big impact on spending and job creation Dooper.

The rotten thing is that taxes on the local level have gone up drastically for goods and services during all this mess with the economy and that has really had a negative impact on the economy too. I can tell you as a guy who smokes a couple of packs a day that my daily habit has nearly doubled in cost in the last few months because of substantial tax hikes.

That money which goes to the government would in fact be spent by me on other things from local businesses that would help make the local economy that stronger. Real Estate Taxes have gone way up, liquor taxes, gasoline taxes etc., ect., that all just further suck money right out of local circulation and send it to Washington, State Capitals or local Town and City Halls to go right into Government coffers.

Police Departments and Code Inspection Departments have gone feral when it comes to aggressively pursuing any code infraction from speeding tickets to equipment violations to having a sign to close to the right of the way, they are right on top of it looking to fine punitively once again to fill government coffers, tickets for hundreds of dollars that just suck money right out of the pockets of the working poor and away from circulating in the local economy.

Now as government looks to muscle it’s way in to health care and the auto and banking business it will just require more and more money to keep feeding and replicating itself with layer after layer of redundant and overlapping services fraught with inefficiency and fraud.

Government health care is really just one more tax. Why would I pay for health care when I am not sick? Why would I pay thousands of dollars of premiums to the Government each year when the rare illness I do get that requires a doctor’s visit usually runs 100.00 for the visit, and another 30.00 or 40.00 for possible medication.

I would loose thousands of dollars each year that I would much rather spend in local shops and restaurants giving local people income and jobs instead of gambling I am going to get sick and not be able to afford it and need the government to step in and pay for it.

Eventually as the government grows larger and larger there would be no way to pay for it all except by directly making us all government employees and the government owning everything.

The government never gets smaller, it never stays the same size, and it never stops growing, just like a weed in your yard that never stops growing sooner or later it overgrows and chokes the life out of everything else.

The ultimate end result of this constant progression is total communism and that conclusion is not based in paranoia...it's based on the logical conclusion of mathematics and motion.

Originally posted by xmotex

I get the idea that a lot of people coming onto ATS lately think it should have stayed that way

I'd be perfectly happy to kill & die to prevent that from happening.

For crying out loud stop with the labels xmotex...

It is obvious people like you have no real argument to back President Obama and his entire administration, hence you resort to the stupid race card...

First of all, we are not talking just about President Obama, but his entire administration as well as every politician, whether Democrat, or Republican, or lobyist who wants the same thing the Obama administration has been implementing..

You will be willing to kill and die to allow the take over of the Republic of Socialist dictators? Well, unfortunately you might get to find out what happens when TRUE Americans say enough is enough and decide talking, and protesting peacefully is doing nothing.

I hope it doesn't happen, but the way things are going it seems it will, then I would like to see where you stand...

reply to post by Southern Guardian


I don't think you know what in **** you're talking about.

I'll go you one better. Not only is that $60 spent by Joe, but as anyone with any basic economic schooling KNOWS, that $60 doesn't get spent just once.

Each and every dollar gets spent approximately twenty times.

So if you cut taxes by say only $15B, you effectively introduced $300 Billion dollars into the economy without printing any more money, without incurring any more debt, and also created multiple new businesses and jobs as a result of this financial boost in disposable income. All without increasing M1.

You assume that everyone is behind on their house payments and overly extended on debt, and not one of the fifty million will spend any of the increased disposable income they are now getting EACH and every payday?

Well, it won't do much for the dumbasses that bought more **** than they could pay for, but they aren't the majority.

A lot of people who went broke were already broke. They just didn't realize it until reality set in.

You're outta your gourd to believe such crap, you must have zero schooling in economics, and if you did have any schooling in economics, you slept through the classes.

My new Toyota truck, my wife's Nissan SUV, my Chevy truck, my house, and everything in it are paid for. If I couldn't pay cash, I didn't get it.

I owe no one.

Cut my taxes, and I'll damn sure spend every single extra penny.

And there are many just like me who would more than offset those you describe who dug their own holes.

reply to post by Southern Guardian


You are incorrect, there is a recall process for all elected officials in the house and the senate, which I believe we should recall every single one of them. Once that is done and "Good" people are put into office that will actually represent the PEOPLE as they are supposed to, I believe the president would find himself in a very hard spot to have his "will" done in anyway in our house and senate. Maybe at that time, the people along with our elected representatives will get it straight that they work for us, not the other way around. I believe part of my paycheck goes to employing them, along with anyone else who receives a paycheck. Therefore logically we employ them, and at least in my state, employment is at will.

Originally posted by Jenna
reply to post by EMPIRE

 

That's kinda the point. He was all about change right up until the election, and now it's more of the same crap people are tired of.

Jenna, I understand that but people need to realize that the only thing that changes are the faces in the game, nothing else. Part of being one of "4-P's" (politician, pimp, preacher and pusher) is to sell pills, creams and dreams. Their mission is to sell you feelings and emotions, self esteem in many cases, and people gobble it up hook, line and sinker. I blame the people for being complacent and not taking a stand, but how much of a stand can a divided people make?

Originally posted by Southern Guardian

Originally posted by EMPIRE
This man has done nothing different from any other US president. Why all the fuss?

The "fuss" as you put it is the constitutional rights of all sides of the argument, not necessarily your personal conclusions of the man.

Listen, there are no "constitutional rights", and personal conclusions are why we're even posting in this thread. The fact is, he has done NOTHING different from any president before him. From Washington, to Lincoln, to JFK, they ALL take orders from those you can't even see. They all have an agenda that involves someone else being at the bottom of their shoe. With that being fact, why waste time talking about a piece of paper they've abandoned decades ago or debate what this man is doing? Why waste time debating all the promises he hasn't kept? It's all TALK. That's all you people ever do is talk. You talk here on ATS, you talk in your blogs, you go and "protest" and shout at the top of your lungs, but it's all the same thing, talk. How many people here are truly taking a stand? Before 9-11 were any of you involved in any type of infrastructure or support mechanism devoted to helping people who were victims of our foreign policy and capitalism? Were any of you concerned with the problems in urban communities and lifting a finger to stop anything? NO! You are only concerned now because your silly 401k's, health care, gas guzzling suv's, lily-white white house and everything else in your comfort zones have been put on the chopping block.

DEAL WITH IT.

[edit on 13-9-2009 by EMPIRE]

Wow you know I only joined this year too but I know better than to say that I know what everybody else has been saying here over the last eight years. take your head out from up your ass. It's not a black thing, it's not a democratic thing, it's is a puppet master thing. The not so secret government is controlling Obama's strings. Obama is a liar. CHANGE..like keeping the same cows in his aministration as were in Bush's. CHANGE...like bringing out troops home RIGHT AWAY, closing these forgein prisons, stopping rendition, ending the patriot act. ALL LIES.

Vote 3rd party!!!! Democrats and Republicans are two different sides of the same coin.

reply to post by Southern Guardian


Uh yeah, we should do nothing. We shouldn't be manipulating anything. We should let it run it's course just like Ron Paul says. It may hurt. People will kick and scream but it's going to hurt a heck of a lot worse when this house of cards comes tumbling down.

Originally posted by Balone
Wow you know I only joined this year too but I know better than to say that I know what everybody else has been saying here over the last eight years. take your head out from up your ass. It's not a black thing, it's not a democratic thing, it's is a puppet master thing. The not so secret government is controlling Obama's strings. Obama is a liar. CHANGE..like keeping the same cows in his aministration as were in Bush's. CHANGE...like bringing out troops home RIGHT AWAY, closing these forgein prisons, stopping rendition, ending the patriot act. ALL LIES.

Vote 3rd party!!!! Democrats and Republicans are two different sides of the same coin.

I agree with most of that but voting 3rd party is not going to change anything. Honestly, voting 3rd party is like putting a band aid or peroxide on someone who just experienced nuclear fallout.

Originally posted by dooper
I'll go you one better. Not only is that $60 spent by Joe, but as anyone with any basic economic schooling KNOWS, that $60 doesn't get spent just once.

So your saying a cash strapped working class family will spend $60 on consumer goods to stimulate the economy one off as opposed to dealing with their overdue debts? Where did this assumption come from?

Even when Bush had his $1 trillion tax cut under his trickle down system back in 03', certainly didnt stimulate the economy, infact debt started to skyrocket following his tax cuts and there was no boom as a result of it. Your basing your entire theory that all these working class individuals will spend $60 on consumer goods as opposed to their debts? And what about the millions of americans that are unemployed? What do they spend their glorious $60 tax cuts on let alone recieve them from getting any income at all?

Each and every dollar gets spent approximately twenty times.

So if you cut taxes by say only $15B, you effectively introduced $300 Billion dollars

How does that work again? People get $60 tax cut, millions are unemployed so they dont really get a tax cut, then you have the cash strapped working class where you "assume" they will us that kind of money on consumer goods. So, what makes you think a man earning $600 with bills to pay two kids and a house to look to, how the hell is $60 going to solve his issue?

Your basing your claim that from that $60 tax cut every working class individual and some how the millions unemployed who magically recieved these tax cuts as well are going to go off and purchase Ipods and boxes of budweisers. Seriously.

You assume that everyone is behind on their house payments and overly extended on debt,

Your assuming everybody is going to spend and stimulate the economy despite the mortgage rates, the jobs that are being cut and people given less hours to work nationwise. Your correct, not everybody is in debt, but then again the situation with the economy depends mainly on a portion of those caught with their pants down in debt, some of the middle class and working class and the unemployed. Its this group that is dragging much of the economy down unfortantly, and its this group where $60 assistance will do squat. This plan from you fellas sounds more like a ponzi scheme, one that has never done anything significant to the economy in the past.

Im working class by the way. I dont have that much debt but ever since the crises my hours have been cut dramatically. I barely making payments, and that $60 tax cut will do squat but contribute to family.

[edit on 13-9-2009 by Southern Guardian]

Originally posted by nunya13
Uh yeah, we should do nothing. We shouldn't be manipulating anything. We should let it run it's course just like Ron Paul says.

And thats what you accuse Obama of doing to the economy. Rather hypocritical dont you think? His either doing nothing to change the crises in 9 months or "his doing too much and too fast". Make up your minds.

Originally posted by EMPIRE
Listen, there are no "constitutional rights"

So none of these individuals care about the constitution including you? Please explain.

and personal conclusions are why we're even posting in this thread.

My OP was clear. If conservatives, libertarians and what not were given the chance to over throw this man hypothetically, they would do this against the guidelines of the constitution. Thats my point, you are no supporter of the constitution if you do so selfishly for your own ideological beliefs. Since you confirmed that this is where you stand then atleast I know the priority of where the constitution really sits for some people.

The fact is, he has done NOTHING different from any president before him.

I dont care if you think the man didnt wear an american flag pin, dont care if his policies make you "angry", he was elected president constitutionally and democratically. If you call for the mans impeachment put the constitution and those "rights" where your mouth is. Pure and simple.

SG.

[edit on 13-9-2009 by Southern Guardian]

Must say, good on the folks for marching down there in DC to fight communism. Taking after mom and pop' from back when you had "your america" back.

www.rayosycentellas.net...

Keep up the fight folks! That commie stranger up there in DC should reveal himself to be the antichrist any time soon.

Originally posted by Southern Guardian
I'm working class by the way. I don't have that much debt but ever since the crises my hours have been cut dramatically. I barely making payments, and that $60 tax cut will do squat but contribute to family.

It's pretty obvious that you never took even a high school level economics class because you know nothing about economics. Dooper is exactly right - every dollar in the economy is spent multiple times. That is why it is called a "multiplier." What do you think happens to the dollars you spend? They don't evaporate - they are spent by the next person and then the next person. Now if the same money is saved it is still working. Money in a bank is called "capital" - another economic term you probably never learned. The bank loans it out to people who want to do something productive like run a business or build something. The word for that is "Credit".

Please try to refrain from lecturing us on something you know nothing about. By the way, how is that "hopey changey thing" working out? Too bad your hours at work got cut - mine haven't. Maybe you voted for the wrong guy!

[edit on 13-9-2009 by itguysrule]

reply to post by Southern Guardian


Count the number of mens lives lost fighting communism since 1900 and if you want to think their lives are worthless,please say so dont beat around the bush..This country will never become communist..It will burn to the ground before it does..That I can promise you..

Are you part of the weather Underground or something?..Like or leave it as they say..

reply to post by itguysrule


I for one barely graduated highschool..If you cant tell from my spelling..But I understand greatly what a tax cut would do..Trickle down doesnt work anymore for us..It needs to trickle up for the quickest rebound..If a rebound is even reachable now..

If any one thinks other wise they have two agendas..
1 their bread is getting buttered by the bank heists..IE bail outs..
2 they just agree with this administration,and disagree blindly with the truth of the matter..
a bonus 3rd..They want the capitalistic system to fail..Just because it has wronged them,and are sold on the ideas of socialistic veiws..

[edit on 13-9-2009 by Redpillblues]

[edit on 13-9-2009 by Redpillblues]

reply to post by EMPIRE

How many people here are truly taking a stand? Before 9-11 were any of you involved in any type of infrastructure or support mechanism devoted to helping people who were victims of our foreign policy and capitalism? Were any of you concerned with the problems in urban communities and lifting a finger to stop anything?

I have to admitt that I am very unusual but I have in fact been fighting the powers that be and working to change and balance the scales at great risk and cost since I was 13 years old. I have 32 years in this war brother and please don't thing, and the powers that be should never think that there aren't people challenging them and taking them on in battles and skirmishes every day.

I will grant you for the most part it's a futile fight when it comes to out and out defeating them when very few people care to try, but I have helped countless thousands of people know a greater justice and enjoy a better life than the powers of be would have allowed them had it not been for my efforts.

No single one of us can change the world, but each one of us can help to make a difference in other people's lives around us, neighbors, relatives, business associates and coworkers, chance acquaintances and through outreach to others to fight the good fight and help them fight the good fight when they don't know how to fight for themselves, have the things that they need, or have not much fight or no fight left in them.

Changing the world one person at a time, can and will reach a critical mass when people want to change, when others will help people and the world change, as others let go of the status quo illusion and realize it truly does not have to be this way.

Some Day Isle, should really not be everyone's favorite Tropical Vacation Destination they hope to go to one day, the endless, fruitless wait for the powers that be, the politicians, the talking heads to do for us, what they never do for us, and never gets done, and never will do for us, we can do our selves, we should do ourselves, we could and ought to do for ourselves.

People shouldn't be scared, screwing with the powers that be...is...well...actually fun, helping other people is actually fun...all this arguing and bickering is kind of fun but not really.

Sieze the day!

Originally posted by Southern Guardian
Very interesting, I would have loved to see evidence of tea protestors walking down the streets in 2003 with us when the war was announced, do you have any evidence of that?

Can you give me evidence of any tea parties that protested against the $1 trillion military increase?

I mean sure, sure there may have been some Paulers among the protests, but explain to me where this "conservative" movement was against Bush?

Sorry, moving the goal posts doesn't change what you said or that you were proven wrong.

Yet you expect me to address all of you as what? [...] When you choose to march down that road with a pro-Bush supporter, or a white nationalist, how do you expect me to ignore your participation?

How about as people who are angry with the government and Obama? That would work pretty well. It would be much more accurate too.

Change labels? I see folks walking around with confederate flags, praising the south of the 19th century, I see others holding birther signs, I saw a couple of protestors holding up "praise Glenn beck" signs, another one holding a pro-fox news sign, another one proudly claiming support for the past Bush administration, another one claiming to be libertarian and another one holding up a sign claiming the movement to be one of "non-partisanship" ironically enough.

So since you saw a few signs that were partisan that means everyone who participated was? That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

Who's changing the labels around here? There are people claiming to be different things all contributing to this movement of yours, and your telling me Im labelling your movement?

Yes you are. Regardless of how many times you're told that your assumptions are wrong, regardless of how many people tell you that they don't fit in the category you're trying to put them in, you try to force everyone into it anyway. It doesn't work that way. It's not as black and white as you like to pretend it is.

I dont do not care what labels you accept

Which is why I followed up by saying it doesn't really matter because you'll just try to label me anyway.

No ofcourse it doesnt, however thats an inaccurate comparison.

It's a very accurate comparison. Standing in a crowd of people doesn't make you exactly like everyone else in that crowd, whether they are criminals, doctors, or tea party participants.

So how you can continue to disassociate yourself with those other protestors chanting the same thing as you, with different agendas, doesnt make sense.

Just because we seek the same outcomes doesn't mean our reasons for doing so are the same or that we come from the same starting point.

I didnt start the name sorry. Maybe folks should have considered a more appropriate name instead of ignorantly associating themselves in that manner. Its not my problem.

People who have attended tea parties refer to themselves as tea party participants, tea party protesters, or just simply protesters if anything. The only ones who use sexual insults to refer to them are the left wing media and those that follow the left wing media. Which are you?

Its not all about you obviously. Im not interested just about "you", Im interested in this movement that your part of.

And my point still stands. Couldn't be further from accurate if I blindfolded you and dropped you off 3000 miles from the target and told you it was to the south when it was really east.

You have nothing to do with the tea party movement? Thats a surprise but explain please.

No I don't actually, nice to know I surprised you though.

I've never been to a protest of any kind in my life. (I wanted to go, but real life obligations came first and being the stay-at-home mother of two with my husband overseas I have plenty of obligations.) Nor have I ever planned or participated in the planning of such events.

What I have done is looked into the protests, listened to what they had to say, and found that while I don't agree with everything they do or say I do support their right to protest and do agree with their end goals on several things. And I've come to the realization that even if I don't completely agree with the protesters on how to get there, having the same goals is still one heck of a good starting place if only people would get off their political party horses long enough to actually discuss solutions instead of bickering and name-calling.

I also understand that protesting things we don't agree with is our responsibility as Americans. It is our duty to make our voices heard when we disagree with what the government is doing. People have sat back yelling at computer screens and televisions for far too long now. Our country was created by people fighting for what they believed in, not sitting back and moping about what could be or what should be.