Like it or not, all 50 States must now recognize Gay Marriages!

reply to post by Xtrozero


OK, by fail I mean you failed to make a point to me. Anyway, what I am saying is that discrimination is discrimination, period. And it is not an American Ideal.

reply to post by Xtrozero


Even if it was a choice, which I do not think homosexuality is, putting homosexuals into a group with sociopaths, pedophiles, and psychopaths is not only poor logic, but insulting as the fore harm others and remove their choices to live, abstain, etc. and homosexuality is expressed in a consensual manner. It is like using Republican and Nazi in the same sentence because they were both political movements that focused around patriotism for their home country. It is inflammatory and unfair.

Saying that gay individuals are great but gays in general are < insert insult > is very narrow-minded thinking from someone whom I feel seems highly intelligent. The squeaky wheel gets the grease. The news media which reports the statements of groups is sensationalistic and caters to advertisers. Ninety percent of the news is "bad" and the ten that is good is a throwaway. We get to hear about the degenerates of this world with lightning speed and the good guy never gets the press.


EDIT: And they wouldn't need special rights if they had equal rights to begin with. Why on earth is the government, the most corrupt group of prevaricators I've ever seen, dictating to the people what marriage is, what morality is, and who adjudicates it. This should have been left up to individual churches to attend to.



[edit on 5-9-2009 by A Fortiori]

[edit on 5-9-2009 by A Fortiori]

Originally posted by Xtrozero
Please explain to me the form of discrimination that you experience? Is non recognition of your choice of partners by the government discrimination

Yes, it is. There is a segment of the population who's rights of equal protection under law are being denied, contrary to the US Constitution, Amendment 14.

is Warren Jeffs being in jail a discrimination of his choice of partners?

Actually, Jeffs is in jail for being an accomplice to rape. Homosexual relations between consenting, competent adults is not rape.

Is the fact that your behavior goes against the majority of religions and beliefs in America discrimination too?

So not relevant as to equal protection under law. The US is a secular country, with secular laws.

but as a society it is not such a rosy picture. ... spreading HIV into a global epidemic they still as a group lead all the high risk groups for STDs and even today close to 71% of HIV cases are gays, and 60% of all new cases are gays, ... all this for only being about 5% of the population is a rather alarming situation. ... other statistics that show similar results ... we are talking about 5% of the population there is something causing this to happen.

^^ Trying to keep the quote a reasonable length yet capture the spirit of the paragraph.

Also not relevant as regards equal protection. Again according to the CDC, just short of 21% of the US population (in 2004) were adult full time smokers, and smoking accounts for 87% of lung cancer deaths in the US. Shall we deny marriage rights to smokers?

It could be that being gay is not ... but it could be ... that homosexuality just happen to be a byproduct. Maybe it is a lack of behavioral barriers ... we see this, ... lack of barriers in sociopaths, and psychopaths too.

Bit of a stretch there, some evidence to back that up would be nice, although it was just speculation. However sociopaths and psychopaths can get married (if they are not gay), so I'm not sure how valid it is as an argument.

It all comes down to equal protection under law. Unless an extremely compelling reason is shown why gay people as a class should be denied equal protection in marriage, then no excuse in the world is sufficient to do so. So far, no even mildly compelling reason has been put forth.

Blows my mind to see this.

There are more than two sides to the issue of gay rights. What exactly do you hope to accomplish? Simply having the marriage of a same-sex couple recognized by the state?

I've seen both sides of this argument torn through multiple times and I'm still wowed by the ferocity and passion I see exhibited by both ends. I'm also amazed by the futility of it. Neither side will bend. This started as a thread about "MUST BE RECOGNIZED", which we've established is incorrect. This is no longer that thread. It has evolved (or devolved, if you wish) into people hammering each other for their viewpoints and we all know the outcome. There's going to be anger, even hatred, and neither side will have accomplished a single thing.

Cool it. Civil, rational discussion. That's what we're here for. If your opinions differ, accept it and move on. Bashing each other accomplishes absolutely nothing. Both of the parties here (between pages 16-18) that are primarily vocal have made their personal viewpoints known. Can we move on?

Originally posted by Annee
Religion used to be government - period. Religious leaders were law as much of the middle east today.

Many things used to be governed by religious leaders - - which is not allowed today.


This is an Equal Rights issue - - not a "what you believe" issue.

The religious argument is null and void.

What are YOU talkin about anne, Jimmy Carter was a very religious Mike huckabee was a pastor. Their is no religuous test to run for office but their have been many supreme court decisions that made it impossible for atheist's to run.

Unless you can PROVE the gay behavior is a class distinction (which opens the door to all kinds of legal issues" this is not an equal rights issue.

reply to post by Arrowmancer


Wait a minute, you mean I have been arguing with teenagers over things that they have no actual experience of?

Hmm, well good old internet huh?

In any case, you are right, this will accomplish nothing, other than hurt feelings and bruised egos.

~Keeper

reply to post by Stylez


It only becomes a class distinction, when that sect is denied the equal rights afforded to everybody else. You all created that class distinction, not us.

Take blacks for example, before they were allowed to marry, or not be slaves, were they not a class distinction? Are they still today? Yes because the white man made them seperate to them according to the law.

~Keeper

Originally posted by tothetenthpower
reply to post by Stylez

 

It only becomes a class distinction, when that sect is denied the equal rights afforded to everybody else. You all created that class distinction, not us.

Take blacks for example, before they were allowed to marry, or not be slaves, were they not a class distinction? Are they still today? Yes because the white man made them seperate to them according to the law.

~Keeper

WHAT equal rights are they denied that everyone else must do to qualify for the same rights. It isn't our fault they won't marry someone of the opposite sex but that's what makes marriage a balanced act my friend.

Ok so then tell me what is it that makes Gays a "class distinction"

Their sexual preference PfffT

[edit on 5-9-2009 by Stylez]

Originally posted by A Fortiori
kick it to death for eating a strawberry is insane.

That would be G-D, and I'm not arguing G-D kicks it to death, Moocow.

*waves*

That's the difference between you and I then isn't it, you'll take the easy answers and avoid the tough ones and the tougher opponent in debates like this. although I would say I have to agree in moocows case, he has established his carreer here as a hater of Christianity and finds no shortage of excuses to insult it and anyone who is.

reply to post by A Fortiori


I'm only doing this because I hate to see someone write this much "stuff" only to have me pass over it which I am going to do.

You and I are so far apart on scripture it is like Night and day and rarely do i meet another christian who works so hard to undermine the efforts of another. You haven't even got enough faith to know devine providence works this kind of stuff out that their are many my post speaks to but it was never intended to be about you.

YOUR posts on the other hand are always about me and about correcting the delivery to diminish what YOU think is how everyone understands it. Nothing you have said I haven't heard before from the scriptures you give, each one I can counter with my own but then I am sucked into your effort to concentrate on that rather then those I have chosen to address.

No I don't agree with you or your u2u in fact behind the guise of all your holier than thou fortune cookie Christianity, has been the same effort to piss me off as you have tried to spare my interlocutors for telling them statistics and facts given by gays and the CDC etc.

I have tried everything but you refuse to make this about the topic and insist it is about me. Make a thread then.

I won't dignify it with my presense there in fact I won't even see it.

You're ignored. Happy now?

Originally posted by JaxonRoberts

That post showed me that you failed to comprehend anything that I was saying previously.

Of course I didn't

You also made several false assumptions. I don't dislike or hate Christians, just those 'fakes' that use this religion to justify internal bias, which you have.

Most of the religious talk I ever give is when someone like YOU bastardizes the Bible to mean something it doesn't. Other than that you haven't addressed any of the secular data I posted other than to cheaply disqualify it because it was out of news papers and not the internet but the dates and papers and authors are all listed

NO it is YOU that makes false assumptions and if I had a nickle for everytime a gay called a Christian a hater or bigot for disagreeing with them I'd be wealthy. when you say "just those 'fakes' that use this religion to justify internal bias, which you have. " Again, I don't have to use religion and I won't with you. Ill use something you can't seem to deal with very well. Ill use LOGIC and Facts.

So far xtrozero has you pretty well boxed in using that method from what I can see.

Since I have a reputation here as a pretty blunt debater and of being level headed and fair and open minded, even amongst those who disagree with me, and I have been so with you as well, the little jabs really don't bother me. You need to step up your game if you expect to survive here.

You have no such reputation Jax and i'd post up what I have heard but that would implicate many that wouldn't want to be involved in your self aggrandizement. Oh and don't be so presumptuous about me either, you don't know a thing about me or just what experience I have. I can tell you this, you are no where near the challenge in debates I have already forgotten more than you have been in here .

One may also say that you have come here with a chip on your shoulder. One only has to check out your profile page to see that you post on 'Gay' themed threads a majority of the time. Of the 149 posts listed since joining us 11 days ago, 95 posts have been on 'Gay' threads. This seems to indicate an 'agenda', an 'Anti-Gay Agenda' if you will.

How many threads? Ooops! Gee I sure hope this isn't the extent of all your "reputable" experience Jaxon. A person comes here makes 140 posts in one thread because he finishes what he starts and we got jaxon roberts to use some illogical mathmeme to suggest an agenda ha ha ha . I take interest in lots of threads but I will only concentrate on one or two at a time. I have a little stalker named a-pac who starts a new name and wham that guy is like all over the place with one line posts in 10 threads the same day .

as for your shakespear, Ill told you what my interests are and hinted at how I arrived at them but it isn't necessary you know me any better than that. What matters to me is I know what Gays do and what they are about MUCH better than you know. I have had many freinds that were gay, have had many hit on me in bars, even hired many.

I only got one issue with them and that is at the heart of why it is so important for them to not only all of a sudden make marriage such an issue in the last 6-7 years or more but why it HAS to be "Marriage".
and civil unions not being accepted everywhere is not good enough answer. In fact when they give that as an answer I can prove it is ONLY an excuse and that they are contradicting themselves about that being so important. Most of them admit that without even realizing how they give themselves away .



[edit on 5-9-2009 by Stylez]

reply to post by Xtrozero

It could be that being gay is not just one switch that just happen to not switch right during the fetus development, but it could be something else that homosexuality just happen to be a byproduct. Maybe it is a lack of behavioral barriers that exists in normal development, we see this, but in a different way with the lack of barriers in sociopaths, and psychopaths too.

With that said I do not see gays much differently as any other group that may have been born with a abnormal behavorial condition.

Where do you get off on calling homosexuals abnormal? Where the hell do you get off on comparing homosexuality with the mental aberrations of sociopaths and psychopaths? How is there any comparison? Sociopaths do not have normal feelings for their fellow man, they have no empathy, same as psychopaths…rather like the displays here of ignorant, arrogant hatred and contempt. In fact your reference is much more relevant to bigoted heterosexuals than any feeling homosexual. And that is the difference really. Homosexual people on the whole have the ability to feel, they can have empathy for others.
Many, many heterosexual men cannot feel…have NO empathy…and wish to CONTROL others as they cannot control themselves. And then they bleat and blame society for not allowing them to release their emotions. Doesn’t seem to stop them from releasing all the negative emotions and displaying the hatred, the aggression, the warring, torturing, raping, controlling and all the violence of many heterosexual’s natures. And all that IS a CHOICE. Don’t see many behavioural barriers in action there.
So take a good look at how the world has run with emotionally retarded heterosexuals in power for eons. Take a good look and realise why ‘civilisations’ destruct….it’s because of weak and unempathic heterosexual men who cannot feel. So do not dare to suggest that because someone is different from you that they are somehow a freak of nature, when a lot of so called ‘normal’ heterosexuals would destroy nature in the blink or an eye for no good reason. ‘Oh, the world would stop if we weren’t ‘normal’ and didn’t reproduce’ is the cry, whilst destroying everything around you and insuring that it will not survive.

Originally posted by oneclickaway

Where do you get off on calling homosexuals abnormal? Where the hell do you get off on comparing homosexuality with the mental aberrations of sociopaths and psychopaths?

RE_READ HIS POST oneclick! Why do you INSIST in mis-representing your interlocutors so?

First of all I think it's abnormal too and ya know what, I am not alone. The ONLY reason gays got taken off the list as a psychosis is because they kept stormi ng the doors at the NHIS and used intimidation tactics to get it removed.

It ""could"" be that being gay is not just one switch that just happen to not switch right during the fetus development, but it could be something else that homosexuality just happen to be a byproduct. Maybe it is a lack of behavioral barriers that exists in normal development, we see this, ""but" in a ""different way"" with the lack of barriers in sociopaths, and psychopaths too.

That isn't saying they are the same but DIFFERENT. Then people ask why others get so angry at them. What is it you can put any words in peoples mouths you feel like it and now they don't even have a reason to get ticked off about it?

If I were xtrozero I'd hope he has as much patience with you as I have had to endure.

Gays better get their story straight because many of them have said it's genetic, as in a "mutation" as it doesn't bode well for the survival of the species hence the need for "breeders ". and if you are going to say I'm mistaken about that meaning, be prepared to have me post hundreds of examples you will be so inundated by gays making mysoginstic statements using that phrase, you will begin to see who the haters really are .



[edit on 5-9-2009 by Stylez]

Originally posted by JaxonRoberts
reply to post by Xtrozero

 

OK, by fail I mean you failed to make a point to me. Anyway, what I am saying is that discrimination is discrimination, period. And it is not an American Ideal.

But where are you being discriminated? It seems these days anything that doesn't line up with a speical interest group is now discrimination.

Originally posted by Open_Minded Skeptic

Yes, it is. There is a segment of the population who's rights of equal protection under law are being denied, contrary to the US Constitution, Amendment 14.

Yet you fail to explain how are they being denied their equal rights when no one has told them they can't get married the same way everyone else has to.

is Warren Jeffs being in jail a discrimination of his choice of partners?

Actually, Jeffs is in jail for being an accomplice to rape. Homosexual relations between consenting, competent adults is not rape.

Actually that would be "statutory rape" and just why is it gays have to work so hard trying to lower the age of consent and decriminalize sex crimes in general and make public sex in public restrooms legal?

So not relevant as to equal protection under law. The US is a secular country, with secular laws.

I see secular laws are only respected when it suits you, the laws say same sex marriage is illegal but that doesn't stop you from arguing against it so why does it matter the reasons they have to keep it that way. It matters because many of those people VOTE and many are religious so yeah, it matters to them and they said NO without priest rabbi or monk for anyone to accuse but woe to the Mormon church for its part in that. You didn't see anyone attacking Pepsi for its part on the gay side though? Wonder why those right wing whacko Christians were not sending people envelopes with white powder in them and setting up intimidation boycotts at small business that didnt vote their way?

Just who is imposing their will, their morality on who?



So not relevant as to equal protection under law. The US is a secular country, with secular laws.


^^ Trying to keep the quote a reasonable length yet capture the spirit of the paragraph.

Also not relevant as regards equal protection. Again according to the CDC, just short of 21% of the US population (in 2004) were adult full time smokers, and smoking accounts for 87% of lung cancer deaths in the US. Shall we deny marriage rights to smokers?

I dunno is smoking contagious? or just habit forming?? Ahhh Ooops!

Try again?

TextIt all comes down to equal protection under law. Unless an extremely compelling reason is shown why gay people as a class should be denied equal protection in marriage, then no excuse in the world is sufficient to do so. So far, no even mildly compelling reason has been put forth.

they are already a class distinction ? what distinguishes them if I may?

reply to post by JaxonRoberts


Meh. What they do is not my concern. I think they should have the right though even if I don't agree with their choices.

Originally posted by Arrowmancer
Cool it. Civil, rational discussion. That's what we're here for. If your opinions differ, accept it and move on. Bashing each other accomplishes absolutely nothing. Both of the parties here (between pages 16-18) that are primarily vocal have made their personal viewpoints known. Can we move on?

Yep I agree.... viewpoints are known and another 20 pages will not change them.

reply to post by Stylez


Though I am on "ignore" and you will never see it I still feel the need to make myself clear...

I am not picking on a fellow Christian, anymore than you were when you had to take me to task with the "back off Christian" remark.

I am defending Jesus, and opening the door for others to come to him with love.

Now, you will never see this. You feel I am justifying sin, and that is the last thing that I would do. I don't justify my own sin. I'm a louse for continuing to sin when G-D has me in his hands. I am justifying Christ's love for all.

I'm sorry that you feel this makes me a bad person or at cross purpose to whatever help you are trying to provide, but we must each be true to ourselves and our own hearts. If you feel I am insincere or that my U2U where I tried to tell you that I wanted us to be peaceful with each other was insincere, I am sorry. I can't help what you choose to feel. I just know what I feel, and that Christ's love and mercy is there for us all.

Since it got bumped to BTS, and is not getting any replies since, I would ask all members to visit this thread: The death of my Son. It is from a member who just lost his son to an overdose and is hurting and needs some support.

Mods, I know this post is off topic, but please let it slide. It was the only way I could think of to alert the ATS community to this. So many members do not visit BTS, so they would not know about this thread.

Thanks in advance for not removing this post as off topic.