Is Pumapunku our smoking gun?

Originally posted by Hanslune
Hans: Here is question for you. Who were the best workers of granite and marble? The ancients or the classical period?

For me, both periods had marvelous craftsman and I have a great respect for what they were able to create from granite and marble, but personally I never have had a preference, or wondered myself of who I thought the best workers of granite and marble were.

Howdy Space Visitor

[silly]
Some hold the Greeks to have been the greatest artists in that medium - how could mere mortals have done such work? I often wonder why theorists never assign aliens to be behind the Greek's great art- since they have the platform of the Pantheon of Greek Gods to make into spacemen.

Personally I also suspected the guy who came out with the high pressure steam boiler must have been an alien and I wonder about the Wright brothers too.
[/silly]

reply to post by Hanslune
Hiya Hans,
Is it not conceivable that a spacefaring species of ET intelligence would teach lowly humans the fine art of using iron or copper to make buildings from stone? It seems reasonable to some that an alien civilization would send their best stonemasons and laborers across the light years to share their ability to fashion blocks from rock.

They must use their hi-tech craft to travel around loaded with Belle mixers, Castle cement bags and a variety of trowels and shovels.

Taken to it's logical conclusion...humans are incapable of original thought. If only aliens have the wits to design and manifest ideas, we all must be aliens, right?

Originally posted by PsykoOps
From archeological point of view do they take into account the myths and legends of the native people?

Yes. In fact, legends and myths can often suggest where to find other locations and they tell us how to interpret symbols. For instance, information from the Chumash Indians helped interpret the rock art of the area. For centuries, they've studied Arthurian legends to try and pinpoint the location of Camelot (and fine points of the tales get "cussed and discussed")... and so on and so forth.

Anyone who works in Egyptology or Maya had better be well grounded in the stories of their cultures, or they'll get hammered by every scholar out there the first time they open their mouths. You can't possibly read the scripts (or of any ancient literate culture) without knowing the stories first.

Those often talk about gods / aliens helping out. Could be that it was some smart humans who posed as gods or something of course...

Actually, very few myths and legends talk about gods helping out. The main ones I can think of are Solomon having the djinn build palaces... perhaps you can prompt me with others. But even the Sumerian gods didn't build towns or temples for humans. That was work that humans did; not gods.

That ancient aliens 'documentary' mentioned that there was legends about puma punku. I believe it said gods taught people to build those structures. Being 'History channel' it can easily be total punk.

reply to post by PsykoOps


If you were to ask a modern Muslim architect, a 6th century Shinto temple building Priest or a 12th century Cathedral builder they would all say they were aided by God, were his instrutment or it was built by him and not them. Its a common motif within ancient, medieval and present civilizations. Until the mid 20th century Christian Americans would often reply (and still do), I did it with Gods help.

I'm not sure if they'd say aided. They might say inspired. This is just semantics though. As far as I can tell that punku legend stated that gods taught men to build it.

reply to post by Hanslune


I can understand this line of reasoning. A church goes up and the flock thanks God for providing for the funds, materials, the skilled crafters for the house of worship. God didn't magically make the money, materials and skill to pop out of thin air. The flock did it all themselves. The motivating spirit to make it was because of God.

However, I find the legend about the rock hewn Churches of Lalibela to be different than that. It was said that humans built them by day and angels worked on them by night. This is very specific. There must have been obvious changes in the construction for the scribe to record a difference in the building between night and day.

reply to post by lostinspace


I would suggest that those who were especially highly motivated would have continued to work into the night. Either that or its just an invention of the writer. Again one has to take religious based hear say with a grain of salt.

Here is an old myth/legend about a church in the UK

It runs along the lines of 'assistance' but from a slightly alternative source;

Thriplow Church

The church was, according to legend, going to be built at the bottom of the village until the
'Devil' interfered and took the building materials to its present less than convenient location on
top of the hill above the village where it sits close to the ancient burial mound - 'Trippa's' burial
mound.

www.thriplow.com...

From what I remember of reading more of this legend, it was said that many attempts were made to build the church where the people wanted it, but each morning they would find all the work relocated.. until they finally gave up and carried on building it in its current position.

But why blame the devil?

Why did they not believe that God wanted the church on a higher position to be closer to God?

The possibility of an alien intervention may never have crossed their minds.

Even so, wether it was God, the Devil or aliens, someone/thing wanted this church built elsewhere.

What made these people create this legend? What made them pass the blame on to the Devil?

Originally posted by Extralien
Here is an old myth/legend about a church in the UK.
What made these people create this legend? What made them pass the blame on to the Devil?

Interesting isn’t it?
Here is another case which was also blamed on to the Devil, it is the earliest recorded image resembling a crop circle.

The earliest recorded image resembling a crop circle is depicted in an English woodcut pamphlet published in 1678 called the "Mowing-Devil". The image depicts a demon with a scythe mowing [2] an oval design in a field of oats. The pamphlet's text reads as follows:

Being a True Relation of a Farmer, who Bargaining with a Poor Mower, about the Cutting down Three Half Acres of Oats, upon the Mower's asking too much, the Farmer swore "That the Devil should Mow it, rather than He." And so it fell out, that that very Night, the Crop of Oats shew'd as if it had been all of a Flame, but next Morning appear'd so neatly Mow'd by the Devil, or some Infernal Spirit, that no Mortal Man was able to do the like.
Also, How the said Oats ly now in the Field, and the Owner has not Power to fetch them away.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/d5e1863557aa.jpg[/atsimg]

en.wikipedia.org...

Sounds like the mower cut them down so I wouldn't find that particularly mysterious. Within the Christian community of the time anything remotely odd was considered to have been the work of the devil from natural events, disease, mental illness to bad luck.

reply to post by spacevisitor
A more reasonable explanation for this particular 'crop circle' is the aggrieved mower returned at night and ensured his curse came true. That the story had enough merit to be reported shows that the mower's revenge had the desired effect on the tight-fisted farmer. Rather than aliens or the devil, it's probably evidence of an underpaid laborer's protest. I salute this unknown worker and imagine the farmer's superstitions led to him offering fairer pay

Originally posted by Hanslune
Sounds like the mower cut them down so I wouldn't find that particularly mysterious. Within the Christian community of the time anything remotely odd was considered to have been the work of the devil from natural events, disease, mental illness to bad luck.

Originally posted by Kandinsky
reply to post by spacevisitor

 

A more reasonable explanation for this particular 'crop circle' is the aggrieved mower returned at night and ensured his curse came true. That the story had enough merit to be reported shows that the mower's revenge had the desired effect on the tight-fisted farmer. Rather than aliens or the devil, it's probably evidence of an underpaid laborer's protest. I salute this unknown worker and imagine the farmer's superstitions led to him offering fairer pay

Thanks for these really well-thought-out down to Earth possibilities guys.
But look again what is depicted in that English woodcut pamphlet.

but next Morning appear'd so neatly Mow'd by the Devil, or some Infernal Spirit, that no Mortal Man was able to do the like.

I asume the mower was a Mortal Man right, so how do you guys explain that then?

Hyperbole

The 'press' of that time was just as guilty of that then as it is now.

However perhaps you could explain to us what, "that no Mortal Man was able to do the like" ----what exactly would this be in regards to harvesting grain?

Originally posted by Hanslune
However perhaps you could explain to us what, "that no Mortal Man was able to do the like" ----what exactly would this be in regards to harvesting grain?

A good question, I wish I knew the answer.

During further digging about the “Mowing Devil” I find this interesting article.

THE ‘MOWING DEVIL’ INVESTIGATED - 22/12/2005

www.swirlednews.com...

This sites at Pumapunku are part of a Pre-inka civilization called Tiahuanaco. It's ruins are in part of southern Peru and north of Bolivia.

If you want to see some real breathtaking images of inka architecture, I suggest you look for:

The 12 angle stone: San Blas street in Cuzco city
vagamundos.net...

The temple of Coricancha (Spaniards destroyed part of it and built a Church) Cuzco City
www.portalinca.com...

Sacsayhuaman fortress. Simply huge, also in Cuzco City
galeon.hispavista.com...

Moray: An inka agricultural lab, each terrace has a different micro-climate. 3 hours from Cuzco
www.pasaporteblog.com...

And this is only part of what I saw last July.
I'm not even talking about Macchu Picchu.

This places are amazing and they were built by peruvians, not aliens. And why do we forgot how to build this? Because the spaniards came and conquered them.
That simple.

I guess it all boils down to belief.

Believe in a god or gods. That's about 90% of the population.
Believe in ghosts.
Believe in UFOs.

If you do not belive in these three things then you believe that those believers are all mental. I say these three things are tied together. Many of the ancient civilizations owe their existance to the UFO's, ghost and gods.

Why did all these ancient civilizations feel the need to sacrifice to the nature gods?

A. Because the Jones next door were doing it.
B. Human nature naturally thinks nature is out to get us.
C. Supernatural beings really influenced our ancestors.

Originally posted by lostinspace
I guess it all boils down to belief.

Believe in a god or gods. That's about 90% of the population.

This depends on the nature of the belief, I know people who say they are Muslim or Christian but don't really follow the teaching, also what about Confucianism and Taoism are these religions or philosophical points of view?

I'd bring down that percentage to say 75%. But I accept the spirit of the post (pun intended)