Big Conflict! Christian over 30 years dealing with New Info Need Help, What Is True?

Originally posted by TangoVooDoo

Originally posted by LeoVirgo


TangoVooDoo....

I know you are coming from an honest heart. But you shouldn't pass judgment when you hardly know someone.

Thank you. Understand also that there is a difference between judging a person and judging their words or better their world view. I am judging what you have stated, your world view but not you as a person.

Originally posted by LeoVirgo

Your learning nor mine should ever become absolute.

I hope you can understand the question I am asking here in regards to your above statement. Do you believe that to be absolutely true?

You want people to believe you, that what you're expressing, experiencing and sharing is absolutely true. Scripture declares that Jesus is the atonement God wanted for the redemption of man yet this seems to offend you and you claim it is wrong to think this way because it is "earthly" and we must shed ourselves of earthly needs, wants and desires but that in itself is self-refuting. "I desire to have no earthly desires!"

Your "spirit guide" tells you that truth is all inclusive, there is no "one way" yet again you hold that my reading of Scripture is in error, as I believe you stated earlier along the lines of, "too literal" but if truth is not Absolute as you say then would not my view then be just as valid as yours? Yet how can it be that in my view people are saved by the shed blood of Christ Jesus and in your view they are not and have both of them right? Remember that if you claim I am in error then you are stating that Truth is in fact Absolute yet how can both of us be 100% right?

If you desire to live by "What's true or right for you may not be what's true or right for me" then we have another problem which is I can then say you're wrong and by your own words you would have to agree with me for if you disagree then you're stating that my view of truth is in fact wrong which again indicates that truth is Absolute.

Again your view is one of being spiritual, esoteric and based on what you FEEL is right. There is nothing objective about it therefore you can't ever be wrong.

Being that we are in a world that is blinding us to the Truth...then yes, we should forever be learners in Spirit while here. If I would not of began seeking truly away from literal words and meanings I never would of been shown what I have been. My mother probably would of never had the experience she had. Other things have happened in my family that makes no sense with today's science. My boy had a amazing experience at age 5 but due to his innocence and need to experience and seek himself one day, I try not to bring his experience to the open. My point is....we are not all going to see Truth the same....this is what the eyes to see and ears to hear is saying. This is what the few will find the way means. How do you give two life times earnings to someone that lived only once? How can one show the neighbor that their water comes from the same place? Im sure my son, for example, will see things a little different then me...with his experiences and opportunities that he has. Will he be able to show me new truths that bring even more understanding to me some day. I think he will yes.

Each to their own readiness is how Truth comes. The truth of the blood sacrifice...for me and my personal relations....showed me the difference in flesh and spirit. So even for me, I see truth in them....but they are not used in the sense of truth you see them as. There for, what is absolute for one is not absolute for another. What is truth?

I dont desire to rid myself of Earthly attachments. If I desired this...I would do this...and do it immediately. But I can see that heaven is Holy and is of the Spirit....which is not of the flesh....and we cant bring to heaven what can be rusted or destroyed. With this understanding....its not my personal desire....but it is the 'way'. My path is not about my desires. Its about seeking the Divine Will...which is ONE. So there is absolute in the end...because it falls back to ONE....but here, I cant give you absolute of my words...nor can you give me absolutes of yours. If we are both honest, then we will share our thoughts for the right reasons.

Truth can be standing in front of someone but if it makes them uncomfortable they arent going to notice it for what it is. This follows the same idea that you should always invite a guest into your home for dinner cause you never know that it could be an angel.

Its not even obvious that God or Jesus or anything outside of the physical worlds really exists....so again....its not absolute. Is this a mistake>? Did God intend for it to be this way>? Well it would serve the purpose of ONLY seeking for the Truth with a HONEST heart....its like discovering an instinct within yourself....just like all creatures do with instincts here on Earth. We have a spiritual instinct...every one has this...but depending on what one 'needs' from faith will depend on what they can 'see'.

Some see Jesus as the 'truth' because he is a literal truth of sacrifice and savior. I see Jesus as the 'truth' because he shows us the way to overcome our carnal natures and do right.

One then must take the idea to God and discover what is of Spirit. Only each person can do this in their personal time with God. What is funny that many think they are doing this...and then reach for their book.

I know...I have been there....I lived the same belief for years.

Spirit is life, it is Holy. How many are seeking 'what is spirit' and 'what is holy'. Most dont really care....they just care that they believe they are saved. It takes away fears they need to face, it takes away their owning up to wrongs and seeing their own carnal ways.

The human language is insufficient for talking of things that arent of this world.

Thanks for the conversing always
LV

reply to post by Grandma


There is absolutely nothing wrong with questioning one's faith. In fact, one should question and challenge their faith all the time. It provides growth. Another thing you hit on in your OP is the concept of different paths leading to the same place. I absolutely believe this to be true. Think of it as a large city in the middle of nowhere. There are many roads leading to it from every direction, but all lead to this city. We are all on different paths in this life, but all lead to the same place, The Divine, regardless of what name you give to It, or how you worship or revere It, or even don't believe in It. As long as your faith leads you to positive thinking, it is good.

You may find that you change your beliefs from time to time, but as long as it leads to an even better understanding of the Creator for you, it is perfectly fine! Remember, our primitive human brain cannot even begin to comprehend such an entity, so find what feels right to you, and always be willing to expand, or possibly even change, what you 'believe'. Ours is a journey of growth, so feel free to grow! It's a quality that the Divine encourages!

[edit on 8-9-2009 by JaxonRoberts]

Originally posted by LeoVirgo
Let me share something that my mother saw in her visions that was very sad.

She saw Jesus trying to build something. She saw all of these stones laying everywhere and there Jesus was trying to build something.

She said it was so sad....because there was NO ONE....NOT ONE PERSON....helping him build.

Ill leave the understanding to each and their own.

I came back to post to this because I thought about it all night and prayed about it ...and felt led to show you why your mom saw this in her NDE >..
Here is what I felt led to post to explain it to you and her ..
Isa 63:5 And I looked, and [there was] none to help; and I wondered that [there was] none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me.
(That arm is JESUS CHRIST )

Take out of it what you will ..or not ....

Leo would you post the parts about Egypt in context please ...I am interested in seeing what the Lord was trying to show her in it ...Thanks ..
Wasnt this post about the things that Gramma saw in her experience that you and her thinks does not jive with scripture ...well I think it does ...but that maybe it is just not being understood properly what he was trying to show her ..Surely we can all reason together and see what the spirit was trying to show her ................cant we ?



[edit on 9-9-2009 by Simplynoone]

reply to post by Simplynoone


if nobody helps you you have to trust on yourself, and god through you will build logic or truth...that's what happened to me all my life. It means those that stand alone will find truth, and god is not truth because he is a cloudy spirit, he is truth because truth is absolute and is free of higher truths, only possible as god.

that's what that verse means.
take care !!
ciao again.

Jesus is the Chief Cornerstone ..and the foundation .....Jesus says so himself in this parable ..even quoting scriptures ...from the OT >>

Mat 21:33 ¶ Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country:
Mat 21:34 And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it.
Mat 21:35 And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another.
Mat 21:36 Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise.
Mat 21:37 But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.
(((((((((The husbandmen was the Jews who the Lord actually put in charge (the levites) he sent OT prophets among them and they killed them and mistreated them (Jeremiah,Ezek,Moses etc etc) and then he sent HIS SON (JESUS CHRIST) and you see what they did to him in the next verses))))))))

Mat 21:38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.
Mat 21:39 And they caught him, and cast [him] out of the vineyard, and slew [him].
Mat 21:40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
(((((((((((The Lord of the Vinyard is CHRIST)))))))))))))
Mat 21:41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out [his] vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.
[[[[[[[[Mat 21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?]]]]]See Psa 118:22 The stone [which] the builders refused is become the head [stone] of the corner. also Mar 12:10 And have ye not read this scripture; The stone which the builders rejected is become the head of the corner:Luk 20:17 And he beheld them, and said, What is this then that is written, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner? also
Act 4:10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, [even] by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
Act 4:11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
Act 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.


Here is where JESUS says the Kingdom of God will be taken from the nation of Israel (the Jews) (But will in the end bring them back into the fold according to other scripture)
Mat 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
Mat 21:44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
Mat 21:45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.
Mat 21:46 But when they sought to lay hands on him, they feared the multitude, because they took him for a prophet.


I think scripture is pretty clear who the HEAD STONE is and who LAYED THE FOUNDATION (JESUS) .......................
1Cr 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner [stone];

1Pe 2:6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.

1Pe 2:7 Unto you therefore which believe [he is] precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,

1Pe 2:8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, [even to them] which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.



So of course Jesus was alone building the house in your NDE Gramma ....as there is NO OTHER NAME UNDER HEAVEN by WHICH MEN MAY BE SAVED .......
He is building a house (Within each believer) by himself ....
to all those who are disobedient he will be an offence and a stone of stumbling to them even to them who STUMBLE AT THE WORD (being disobedient) Do you see that ???
Sound familiar ?

It is a spiritual house inside each BELIEVER but will someday be a whole KINGDOM ...
Who will rule in the NEW HEAVEN AND THE NEW EARTH with JESUS when the end comes ...when he says IT IS FINISHED >>..

[edit on 9-9-2009 by Simplynoone]

jesus was one with god,

just as you are allready.

there is only god. and jesus acknowledgded this by becoming one with him,
as destined in his life to become free of lies.

there is only god. and jesus is one with him.
jesus is the corner stone yes, he is god yes,
but where will you go when you become free ?
to be free as god as one with god as one with jesus,
so even in you jesus could come back.

you are right, but your interpretation is'nt.
you say the truth to change the truth by previous brainwash,
making god divided.

is it difficult for you to accept god has many faces ?
but is one mind, one being ? and when he likes to
he comes back into whatever form he wants,
maybe jesus comes back as another face,
because it will be god.
and religion will think 'antichrist!!'
when it is elijah to come,
which is jesus, which is you, which is god.

the demon 7 heads, 10 horns, are NOT people,
they are powers, religions and philosophies.
the woman is those religions.
kings, kingdoms are not antichrists.
The 10 horns are not persons as individuals.
People step inside those powers, the powers symbolise them and their believes.
king is a symbol. kingdom is a symbol.
jesus as son is a symbol of himself,
god is ONE and ONLY.


[edit on 10-9-2009 by pasttheclouds]

Despite free-will, we aren't strong enough to bend the ultimate will of God.
All I have to say is that you'd have to ask God himself to lead you to the truth.

No guarantees that you'll receive an answer in a way you'll be able to interpret.

But I do know that whatever happens, happens and has been accounted for in Gods plan.

It's not good enough to hear this, and this is certainly not a good enough answer I know.

But I do know that God is good enough to make the appropriate judgment.


I'm ready to go to Hell if I'm wrong about Jesus. (I like to think that I am ready)
Because I know that me going there must of had some significance to his goal.
If anything, I will hold to the fact that God knows what he's doing, even if it means my own demise.

Regardless of that, I have faith that he is a loving God. I won't determine His decisions for Him because I trust that he is more than capable of making the right judgment.

And as a human whom he created, that's all I can do.

Just speaking out whats real to me guys.
Sorry I didn't give out answers with scriptural context,
~Gambit VII



[edit on 16-9-2009 by GambitVII]

he is a loving god.

Hi Grandma long time no post. To be honest I think you might want to listen to her on some things. New things are being brought to evidences that we know now but that which many never knew in the past. Didn't God tell us that something wont be reveal till the end of times.

Just remember pray to God on all things and let him answer the question. Remember end the end we all believe in God and Christ. That Jesus died for our sins. And that is what saves us. All the in be tween in just frosting on the cake, its what in the cake that matters. Just remember just because she is younger than you doesn't mean a thing. The new age has new ways of finding truth. Let god reveal to those who will listen and have open ears.

Why do so many of you think that all of us who believe in the bible and the Lord Jesus Christ are wanting nothing else except to be saved ? It is way more than that (at least to most of us) it is a real up close and personal relationship with God through Christ .........Christ came to bring us the LOVE OF GOD through himself ..(he is a sacred vessel whos will was nothing but the FATHERS WILL) Christ willingly did what he did because of his love for us ....that alone is more than I could ever ask for even ...........

If I died and went to hell tonight ...I would still never regret the fact that I knew Jesus (his spirit) and felt his love and his kindness towards me for years now ............and I feel honored and grateful that God felt love for me that I feel like I have already had my heaven ....

And do not think for one minute I believe we arent held accountable for the things we do >..I have already had my rebellious days and learned that the hard way ....It is the past wickedness that he forgives us for and most of that I certainly had consequences for doing them ..in fact I was harder on my self over it all than God was to me ...I kept punishing myself (self hatred etc) for everything and it was getting to really know the Lord that I changed ....He told me that I needed to forgive myself ...(he had forgiven me already ) but I had not yet forgiven me so I could just move on with my life ....He helped me so much during that time that It would take all day to tell you about it all ...he showed himself to me many times (with that still small voice ) and through other people (who could have been angels that were unaware) ....

It is so much more than just being saved

Simplynoone I understand what your saying. Sometimes its our personal relationship with God that keeps us going. I recently just went through thoughts of killing myself. Tho I don't think I would ever do it. I just felt like it, but my mind told me God did want thit. I knew that if I died that I would not complete God's destiny for me. All I did was pray because all I had was God. I just felt so bad so alone it was not even funny. But I pray all the time and I think God gave me a test. I should make this story known its a good testimony It just sometimes I hate sharing my personal stuff. I am am-barest

[edit on 17-9-2009 by slymattb]

reply to post by slymattb


Yes that is all that has kept me going for years ...
And dont feel alone we all have felt at least a few times in our lives to just opt ourselves out of here ....But I learned that I may not love myself but God loves me so much he gave his only son for me (Thats LOVE) ...and If I am that important to him then I need to care about myself more .

hey, i just want to comment on this,

I know you care, christians do care,
but it doesn't mean they are allready right in their interpretations,
and because of this, they can make things worse.

As a believer you always have to do your best,
that is a believer, sometimes truth hurts very much.

Israel, will play both curse as blessing,
that is the truth, but those that play curse,
will also come home because they do repent.

Grey is our evil, grey is ignorance,
caring christians are not ignorant, but they can be wrong.

In life there are different functions.
In the end all our crosses will be equal weight,
parabel of the workers that get paid the SAME price,
the promised land is your goal, and it is the place where God is God,
God his dwelling is where God is God, everywhere.
those that became glorified can choose more weight
because of their oneness. This is what Jesus did, Elijah will do,
and what the saints of the last age will become, they are the moon.

Angels will not be like yesterday, don't look addicted back to sodom, our past,
learn from the past and look to the future, we will become free, we will forget our
old symbology, and become free with god. Where Jesus is allready as One.

Those people sharing these truths will scare the world because of their freedom
in both mind as heart, dogmatic religion will try to crucify them.

There were two spies coming back from the promised land
to bring the others, and that land is God.
God is One and his son is God, himself.

Jesus was a symbol of all the saints that are the SON of Man,
all those prophets are the suffering servant as a whole.
Because he became one, he carried the future in his present,
and had the whole son of man in him, just as Elijah will
have Jesus in him, and just like yourself, the day you become
glorified will have all the others in you, because you share the same mind,
that looses the need to hurt himself.

The son of man is in levels.

But all of them are equal to each other after salvation, because they are the same.
Jacob's stone with seven eyes as opposite to a dragon with different heads.



[edit on 17-9-2009 by pasttheclouds]

I give this advice again to everyone in religion :

try to understand your god, before you try to see what evil is.
try to understand glorification. Was jesus one with god or not ?
What does that teach you ? Do people search a name or a God ?
That God is one or not ? if he is one, could that be the reason why he forgives
himself ? God is truth, so when people seacrh truth as children, are they believers ? even when they don't see the full picture yet ? Do i understand the law ? What is the difference between blessing
and curse of this law ?

Do you see your God ? Or do you first read everything that you don't understand.

This is preparation, if you don't, you will loose sight the next few years,
and will be the driving force to blame those from the promised city,
which is spiritual.



[edit on 17-9-2009 by pasttheclouds]

Originally posted by Simplynoone
Why do so many of you think that all of us who believe in the bible and the Lord Jesus Christ are wanting nothing else except to be saved ? It is way more than that (at least to most of us) it is a real up close and personal relationship with God through Christ .........Christ came to bring us the LOVE OF GOD through himself ..(he is a sacred vessel whos will was nothing but the FATHERS WILL) Christ willingly did what he did because of his love for us ....that alone is more than I could ever ask for even ...........

Because that is what the blood sacrifice is all about. And it is a complete manipulation and people use that as a selling point for religion, rather than taking the understanding provided to help people find the father.

It changes what it means to "believe" in Jesus from being about what he does and teaches into being about "accepting" Jesus. But it's not "Jesus" or what he stands for they are really accepting, what they are actually accepting is a religion and book as authority - things of this world. And then these things become replacements for the father.

I can tell you I know the father, and if I repeated the bible and the general christian view of sacrifice - you would believe me. If I say that I was shown a higher understanding of things, then you say that is Satan. You say that I have received a serpent, when I asked for a fish.

You can believe me or not, doesn't really matter. At any rate, I see the blood sacrifice, the bible and religion as being a lock on doors that lead to the father. These are doors that are within, what does that mean? These are doors of perception, of understanding and so forth.

These are the ones who do not enter and try to block the doors for other people who are looking as well. And they do that with getting people to accept their way, rather than understanding of things usually out of fear.

I'm glad you realize you have to actually keep the commandments. That is the most important part, that is what it actually means to believe in Jesus, as he says many times - but never once mentions believing he is a blood sacrifice - not even to the rich man who directly asks. But then you explain away these things, due to other parts of the bible - because if you don't explain them away their is obvious contradiction.

There is alot of wisdom and understanding in the bible. It's easily my favorite book. But when you elevate it into being the authority and the "word of god", it then becomes a replacement for the real authority and the real word of god.

I would like to point out badmedia that you talk alot of blood sacrifice when it comes to Christianity and the bible. Here the problem with that thought. ALL blood sacrifice is against the person dieing. Jesus was will to die, and even put himself to the cross.

Jesus own words...

Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.


Mat 20:28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

RANSOM
1) the price for redeeming, ransom

a) paid for slaves, captives

b) for the ransom of life

2) to liberate many from misery and the penalty of their sins


John says this
1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world.

PROPIATION
an appeasing, propitiating

Thayers Lexicon
Sacrifice ..of a priest offering an expiatory sacrifice .

Expiate
* Main Entry: ex·pi·ate
* Pronunciation: \ˈek-spē-ˌāt\
* Function: verb
* Inflected Form(s): ex·pi·at·ed; ex·pi·at·ing
* Etymology: Latin expiatus, past participle of expiare to atone for, from ex- + piare to atone for, appease, from pius faithful, pious
* Date: circa 1500

transitive verb 1 obsolete : to put an end to
2 a : to extinguish the guilt incurred by b : to make amends for

I just dont know how much clearer it can be ...and Jesus certainly knew that he was to be a sacrifice ....

1Jo 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son [to be] the propitiation for our sins

Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth [to be] a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
(((THROUGH FAITH IN HIS BLOOD for the REMISSION OF SINS that are past ))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

1Pe 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
(((((((((((((HE BORE OUR SINS IN HIS OWN BODY)))))))))))))))))))

1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
(((((((((((((((HE SUFFERED FOR SINS that he might BRING US TO GOD))))


I know this isnt going to change the minds of those who refuse to see ..
But thats ok ..at least I tried ................

you are right,
but you don't put it in the big picture.

Jesus did die for us,
so will you.

His offer was bigger then anyone else, because after he became one,
he didn't enjoy heaven yet, but got crucified for us by choice.
But all those people getting hurted by life, in extreme ways,
what are they doing ? they are taking their cross,
not by active choice but by honesty which lead them there,
honesty which is choice that helps to take you a cross without seeing it yet,
or you wouln't take it.

that is honesty. honesty is taking your cross.

Jesus after glorification is one with the father,
the father takes his cross
when you become one in the future,
who do you think took the cross ?
the father, and the father only.
So it is you that took the cross of jesus,
not now, but when you become one,
it was you, yourself.

God does it together, he makes you part of him,
and when you are part, you will realise,
you took the cross.
That's what jesus showed us.





[edit on 18-9-2009 by pasttheclouds]

reply to post by Simplynoone


He laid his life down in order to give people understanding and show them the way, which people had been blinded to by the religion of the time.

I don't dispute that he gives his life for others at all.

But you say it is the act of that death and sacrifice on the cross that is what saves people. I instead say it is the life and lessons he gives that is what leads one to salvation.

Lets say you go out into the world and you start waking people up to the truth and manipulation of this world. You do it because you care about the people and want to free them of that manipulation. You know you will be killed by those who manipulate the people, but you do it anyway because you care and love the people that much. In this way, you put the lives of others above your own, and you lay down your life for them.

You are killed sure enough. Now, was the act of you dieing that you did all those things for? Or was it what you were killed for that was important? How would you then feel if you look back at the world, and you see people talking about your death as saving them and at the same time they reject and work against the very things you were speaking about in the first place?

That is how I see people treating Jesus, and I think it's sad/wrong.

It is because men sin that he dies. If men did not sin, then he wouldn't have been killed. Jesus is supposed to be the norm, not the exception. When everything around you is the exception to that, then maybe it's high time one starts asking "why?".