Big Conflict! Christian over 30 years dealing with New Info Need Help, What Is True?

I have been a Christian over 30 years and feel very secure in the knowledge and wisdom that I have come to believe from my Bible, from prayer, fellowship with other believers, seeking wisdom and knowledge. studying, and most important my alone time with our Heavenly Father.


I am 60 years old and what I have come to believe, I feel deep in my heart and soul. My faith has always fealt right to me and I have always fealt in a close loving relationship with the Lord, Jesus Christ. I had deep-rooted faith. The key word here, had.

Some of you know that Leo-Virgo is my daughter. If you know that and me then you know we don't quite agree with what we believe. And as of late she has been sharing her faith with me, we all have been there. We are so excited about what wisdom we have come across and want to share it all with others. I must admit it is exciting for me to hear the excitement in her voice and see the love shineing from her eyes as she tells me what she has learned.

The problem is IT all goes away from ALL that I thought I knew and now I am given new ideas to consider and to ponder on. Wisdom that turns mine and what I have come to believe and trust into doubt and confusion.

My question to other Christians is, how do you handle situtions like this? It's not so simple. When the other person bringing this "good news" to you has some truth to it that as a seeker of new wisdom you find you must sift it and weigh it. Then you compare it with your wisdom and find maybe there is truth in what she is bringing to you and it totally rocks you to your core. Who is right? What do you believe now? What wisdom do you fall back on?

Needless to say this has caused me much thinking and researching again. NOT only of the enlightment I have believed all these years and held my faith too but also I must cinsider her enlightment and does this have an impact on my faith and if so am I willing to see those changes and accept them.

How do you handle situtions where others who once believed what you did and now feel God leading them a different way and finding new wisdom, what do you do? Now remember this person is changed in spirit, a sweerter more giving spirit. She has a glow about her and when she shares her heart her eyes light up. The Bible says, "You will know them by their fruits." Can we both be right and on a different path. Is there more then one way to the Father?

This has indeed tested my faith and what and WHY I believe what I do and that is not a bad thing to happen to us. We all must be able to stand and give an account of our faith to others at all times.

Peace to all.
Grandma

All I can say is to drop all pretense and look into your heart.

You will find the truth there if you listen...

Jesus hated the "establishment".
...ya gotta wonder why that is.
could it be because he knew temptation to do evil?

also, you've a bias for your daughter. you are holding back things you want to say to her cause she is you daughter.

lol that's the second time i've said that to a wiser man than me today.
my sister's got "gimme without earning it" syndrome and my dad can't comprehend how to rid her of it cause she's his little angel.
i'll admit this might not be you but, well, if the shoe fits is all.

hey,

when you doubt yourself or others,
see their honesty
if you have doubts
be honest

honesty is not against god, it is his command,
from there all wisdom starts
even when you become a lost sheep
from there life, god, our one, can save you always...

I always run away from god, i always declared
he had to be logic and good, both
he hurted me big time,
but he always came back for me
once he showed himself to me old testament like
and i told him to not bother me
if he couldn't be logic. couldn't be good
i was scared to hell, but i told him
i will never believe manifestations of you without logic
and i can never accept a not good and loving god
because i feel in my heart you are.


talk with god, be honest,
he loves honesty, because he is truth no ? truth is honest
take care !

honesty, even when it changes the worldview upside down
(love is based on honesty, so it is more the sweetness,
it reacts too, it cares, and sometimes it cares first wrong,
to see itself and change back to right, but it is not ignorance)

jonathan.

Ah, Grandma

That's so great.

You have the opportunity to explore what it is that your beliefs and your daughter's beliefs have in common that they should affect each of you so strongly, and in so many of the same ways.

Can't say where that will lead, but it sounds like the kind of trip of trip that's worth taking.

eight bits: right you are !

reply to post by tribewilder


tribewilder:

Thank you for your kind words. You are right, one must just look at what is in our heart. What does my heart tell me. I love my daughter and she gives me much encouragement.

PEACE,
Grandma

reply to post by pasttheclouds


pasttheclouds:

Thank you for your words of wisdom

Peace.
Grandma

reply to post by eight bits


eight bits:

Yes, we have decided finding out where all this talking and learning will lead to is exciting. We are finding there are a lot of differences.

Peace,
Grandma

If what the person is saying lines up with God's Word then it's fine.
If not, flee from it.
Thanks,
TT

Well, I guess I'll quote some proverbs for you.

Proverbs 9

1Wisdom hath builded her house, she hath hewn out her seven pillars:

2She hath killed her beasts; she hath mingled her wine; she hath also furnished her table.

3She hath sent forth her maidens: she crieth upon the highest places of the city,

4Whoso is simple, let him turn in hither: as for him that wanteth understanding, she saith to him,

5Come, eat of my bread, and drink of the wine which I have mingled.

6Forsake the foolish, and live; and go in the way of understanding.

7He that reproveth a scorner getteth to himself shame: and he that rebuketh a wicked man getteth himself a blot.

8Reprove not a scorner, lest he hate thee: rebuke a wise man, and he will love thee.

9Give instruction to a wise man, and he will be yet wiser: teach a just man, and he will increase in learning.

10The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.

What is happening to you is you are seeing understanding, and it is troubling you because you have been comfortable in what you've accepted.

It is said that you need to become like a child. What does that mean? A child is one who doesn't know, hasn't accepted anything and has no real beliefs. The child is agnostic.

To be gnostic means with knowledge, and more specifically knowledge of the holy. The first step to becoming gnostic is to become agnostic, or to become like a child. It's just being honest with yourself. Because the child does not know, the child asks many questions. By asking those questions, the child is seeking knowledge.

If the child already has a belief or reason, then he does not ask and does not seek any further.

Sounds to me like you've already started to do that.

I'd say the confusion is a result of things which have been made as replacements for other things, and perhaps you are seeing the deeper meaning now. This was happening in the days of Jesus as well, and is what he means by "The pharisees sit in the seat of moses". Those things are not in their proper place. When you start seeing things in the proper places, it brings about a very deep understanding, beyond that which any man(or daughter) can even express.




[edit on 8/22/2009 by badmedia]

reply to post by Grandma
I have run across some questioning of the legitimacy of who the God is that is normally associated with the Old Testament. From my point of view, I can see how Christians can easily find themselves in a state of flux. What I have that I think keeps me somewhat grounded is something that most Christians do not have, which is a belief in the seventh day Sabbath. I do not think that the Sabbath was given for no good reason, and that it was meant to keep a connection between God and His people.
I never have a problem identifying who it is that is my God because He is the God of the Sabbath. Christianity in general has been, in my opinion, seduced into unknowingly following another god, by disavowing the Sabbath in favor of another day, one named for the sun. I have been doing a little bit of looking into Wikipedia lately to see what can be made of this thing called the sabbath. The day, according to some systems for calculating weeks is either the sixth or the seventh day of the week. In the Romance languages, the name of the day, known to us as Saturday, is associated with the sabbath and has names like sabado, in Spanish.
This day is associated with the planet, Saturn practically universally in all cultures. The color for the day is purple. The god, Saturn is associated with the concept that only he shall be worshiped alone, which seems to correspond with how Jehovah God feels about god worship. He is also associated with the concept of a Golden Age of Man, which the Sabbath commandment of the Ten Commandments hearkens back to, when God created everything and there was harmony in the land.
This information is not real evidence, as such but it does make me feel like there is a such thing as a onetime universal recognition in the long ago collective memory of mankind that there was once a supreme being forever bound together with this day. God in the early history of the Hebrews brought this back into the immediate consciousness of his people and then reinforced it after it had been lost in Egypt where a different sort of week had been kept.
We have at present, a ready rationalization for Sunday worship, which is Jesus was Lord of the Sabbath and now we keep the Lord's Day. That is just semantics applied to something that already had been accomplished by other means. Jesus was Lord of the Sabbath because he was in a position to be able to interpret the spiritual way to keep the day, not that he had the power to do away with the day and replace it with his own day. So we as Christians are in a condition of schizophrenia because we have divided loyalties between the old god, and a new god, with Jesus demonstrating his subordination to a previously unknown god, represented by a new day of observance.
My advice is that if one wants to know who God is, remember the Sabbath day. Not an easy thing to do, when it is so much simpler to follow the slide into the worship of the Most High God. That was who the Israelites worshiped when they fell into idolatry. Jehovah is the Most High. That is true, but should not be confused with a god who is satisfied with only being the highest of many gods.


[edit on 23-8-2009 by jmdewey60]

I found the best part about my faith is that it came from within myself. I asked for it for many years and one day it showed itself to me. I knew that no human could ever express to me what God was and I never trusted them to be adept enough to do so. So I focused on the worst and best parts of my life and asked why they happened the way they did. That night, God spoke to me and answered me very enthusiastically. I've never been the same.

There is no reason for someone with such little life experience to be giving you pointers, but I hope I can offer some understanding at least. To me, it was the books and the rituals that clouded my view of God, because God is so much more than what words can describe.

Your dialogue with your daughter should be considered a great blessing.

Originally posted by Grandma
Is there more then one way to the Father?

I missed this before. This is answered in John 14. You will probably recognize it, but look at it a bit deeper.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

This is often quoted to mean Jesus is the only way. But see how it is saying "I am the way, the truth and the life" before it says that? He is defining what "he" is when he says that.

So it is by one searching for the way, the truth and the life that one comes to the father.

Proof of this can be found later in John 14.

24He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

25These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.

26But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

See that? If "Jesus" is the only way to the father, then how can those who don't love "Jesus" and do not keep his sayings hear the father that sent him?

So anyone of any culture can come by the father outside "Jesus", however those that do will be search for those 3 things. It was those things I was searching for when I found the father, and I was far away from the bible and such at the time. After I gained the understanding in John 14:26, then I found the sayings of Jesus and I was amazed. Here is what I learned written down from 2000 years ago, and at that point I didn't think anyone understood what I learned. And then people started quoting Paul towards me as to why I was wrong, which was disappointing.

More proof can also be found in John 14. He says:

13And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

14If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

15If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Now, if you ask "Jesus" to kill someone in your family, will it be done? No, because it is not inline with those 3 things. That which you do which is inline with those things, that is what will be done.

So this is why the father doesn't just care about a certain religion. All those who seek those things will come to the father. In this manner, one could say that there are many paths. But yet, they are really all the same path, just colored differently.

How we come into understanding is also our own unique path as well. But again, when we find the father it will be in searching for those things.

It's like you want to take a walk to the mailbox outside. Well, there are many paths that you can take to that mailbox. You can take the most direct path, you might stop and smell some flowers, walk around the yard and in this way, there are many paths. But in order to get to the mailbox, eventually all those paths will have to head towards that thing, and when we do that with the father, we are heading towards those things.

So, you aren't going to get to the father through death and destruction, telling lies, manipulating people and so forth. But if someone does that, then they can at one point or another change and head towards those things, and still make it to the father. So again, we can say that path is different than another, but yet in the end they will all carry that "narrow gate".

Think of it as like a math equation and the basic understanding of math. There are many expressions of math, 1+1=2, 2+2=4 and on into infinity. But yet, underneath all those expressions, if it is true statement, then it carries the same exact understanding, the same rules, the same way, etc.

So yes to many paths, but in the end each will follow the same understanding. And understanding is as universal as math.

reply to post by Grandma


I've been where your daughter is and my wife has been where you are. Our biggest argument was about hell. She was all about punishing sinners for eternity while I spouted out about the "Lake of Fire" being the "Second Death" and that after the second death, the sinner no longer existed. I also explained how hell is not an accurate word for the translations in the bible, such as "grave", "death", "confinement", and "Valley of Hinnom". Only with these accurate translations shall one know the truth about hell. And heaven is not meant for mankind... earth was. John 3:13 states "No man has ascended into heaven except He who came from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven." May I ask what exactly your daughter has come to light with? Maybe it's what I've discovered as well.

reply to post by Locoman8


Locoman8:

The two main issues we disagree on is that Christ was the sacrificial lamb who died and whose blood made atonement for our sins. My daugther does not believe there needed to be blood sacrifices of any nature and they certainly were not approved by God.

The second one and most important to me is that Jesus is not the one true living son of God.

There are many differences between the two of us. My faith is very deep rooted of what I have come to believe in for over these 30 years as a Christian and my own personal experiences and wisdom I have learned along the way while on my path.

She also believes in reicarnation and I am having a little trouble with that idea, so you see, there are several major differences.

Peace,
Grandma

grandma,

try to make it allowance,
instead of options that contradict.

Blood offers not needed for God, Life ?
Everyday someone dies, every day there is offer for God, Life
God is One, so it is god that offers himself every day, not only once.
Jesus did fulfill an offer, but there were other offers, and we all
share in those offers, it's a christian understanding that jesus
in his human life fullfilled all offers, that is not true.
Anyway, salvation has nothing to do by knowing that
why ?

Jesus said I am One with the Father
the bible confirms everywhere (Leviticus, Isaiah)
that God is One, and Only
in other words God is everything
Love God means Love everything
When you love everything, God loves you as one,
So Jesus was God yes,
but he didnt exclude us to join him

If a person searches truth
and your god is truth
then he will find god
without knowing the truth yet

another name for jesus is truth.
god allowed different christian sects to believe
that the name jesus, or jeshua or .... is the
thing for salvation, but it takes away from a righteouss
god to do that, because honest, who would get saved ?
if his real name is aramaic and nobody knows it ?
Jesus his other name is Life.
Search Life, and you are searching God (one with jesus not ?)

take care grandma !





[edit on 24-8-2009 by pasttheclouds]

Originally posted by Grandma
The two main issues we disagree on is that Christ was the sacrificial lamb who died and whose blood made atonement for our sins. My daugther does not believe there needed to be blood sacrifices of any nature and they certainly were not approved by God.

The second one and most important to me is that Jesus is not the one true living son of God.

Me and your daughter have very similar views, and we've talked a few times on here about them. I know her views on the OT, and I understand them because what is said seems so much different from the father I have come to know and love. But then when I read things like Proverbs, I see such a profound wisdom that it's like hmmm.

So I have been doing some study into the OT. What I found is that the blood sacrifice even in the OT only applies to sins the person had done unintentionally and wasn't aware of. And that it is considered the least form of atonement, and that in the OT it is warned of not to get too caught up into sacrifice. Because sacrifice is not needed at all.

In fact, sacrifice in such a way was I guess extremely big in the pagan religion, and I think there is strong evidence that the sacrifice of Jesus is a manipulation of pagan influence in Christianity.

Now then, the highest form of atonement however is to repeat for the sins(again, still talking OT here), to realize and fix our mistakes. This form of atonement goes for all even the worse of sins. When one does this, they are automatically forgiven. You can see this type of atonement in the story of David, where he sends the man to war on the front lines to die so he can have his wife. When the sin is pointed out to David, he immediately repents and so forth, and is forgiven immediately.

Now then, if you look at Jesus and what he does, you will see he is always talking about this form of atonement, and is showing/telling people how to repent and receive that type of atonement. He says things like I have not come for the righteous, but to call sinners to repentance.

And if you follow his example, his life and his path then that is what you are doing. It's why he puts such importance on things. And he is basically killed for showing people that.

So, blood sacrifices were always the least form of atonement, and for a very narrow thing. In order for Jesus to be a blood sacrifice as presented by Christianity, it means a huge change in things, and Jesus says he has not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it. By fulfilling it, he brings understanding and that is in line with the OT and the highest form of OT according to the OT. Because the OT and Proverbs especially is always talking about the importance of going in the way of the understanding. As well, Psalm 111:10 says those who follow the commandments are ones who have good understanding.

So, the blood sacrifice of Jesus is actually Paganism which was inserted by the Romans(among many other things apparently).

I have been meaning to tell her about these things, because I know her thoughts on the OT. It's not as bad as she(and I once thought) thinks it is. I have been listening to Jewish Rabbi's for better understanding of the OT.

Jesus is not the "only" son of god. He himself constantly puts the differences between him and the father. He denies Mary is his mother at one point as well. The virgin birth is the birth of the soul, of which comes from the father. Jesus calls people his brother, meaning they too are sons/daughters of god. If you look at John 14, it says all that Jesus does you can do. And it talks about the father being within you.

What made Jesus so special is that while the majority of people are blind to the father within him - he knew. He had been "born of spirit". And from that, the father was speaking through him. What turned me towards the bible and Jesus was I recognized the father I knew in the words of Jesus. And I mean in a very very deep way, well beyond what any man has said of Jesus.

When I meet the father, he made me understand to see beyond the physical. To look beyond the images and such, and to look at what they are expressing. I was shown that Jesus and such are just messengers, do not focus on the messenger, but instead focus on the message. This is also to look at peoples fruits etc, rather than the symbolism they hold up etc.

So, the point is to find that father within, and when you do the father will give you much understanding and wisdom. Jesus is just trying to show people that. You can see that if you let go of the church doctrine you know, and focus in on only the words of Jesus.

Reincarnation is a bit of a mix bag. There are actually cases of that in the bible. I myself do not really consider it "reincarnation" because I would say all things are an incarnation of the father anyway. But it does happen - check out what Jesus says about John the baptist.

But John doesn't know it. And I can go into more detail about why if you would like, but the short answer is - to know the previous would be a change in the experience completely. He would not have been "John the baptist", but Elijah in John's body etc. Like if you were reincarnated as a bird for example and remembered the previous, you would not be a "bird" having a "bird experience", you would be a human in a bird body. 2 completely different experiences.

I hope you find the father so your questions are answered and you can understand for yourself.

reply to post by Grandma
There's nothing new about that kind of thinking and it is gnosticism.
People can happily be under this delusion but whatever enjoyment they get out of it in this life is all they will get. Avoiding the suffering in favor of the pleasurable, instead of dealing with the truth that can be troublesome in some aspects now, in the hopes of reward in the next life.
Jesus did not come to make people comfortable, or to make things convenient for people. Jesus is sometimes called the man of sorrows and he was not promising immediate gratification.
The continued existence of mankind has been from the beginning upheld by Jesus' sacrifice. "Before Abraham was, I am" is not just a nice way of making himself seem special, it is about his substitution for us, and his ability to do it, as the Son of God.
The blood is what Jesus as the High Priest pleads on our behalf as the satisfaction of the demands of justice imposed by a holy law. God does not change the Law to fit circumstances or to grant favors. Something had to be done and out of compassion for those who would benefit from this intervention, God payed the penalty Himself, through His Son, who was more than just any person, but was God embodied.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
The blood is what Jesus as the High Priest pleads on our behalf as the satisfaction of the demands of justice imposed by a holy law. God does not change the Law to fit circumstances or to grant favors. Something had to be done and out of compassion for those who would benefit from this intervention, God payed the penalty Himself, through His Son, who was more than just any person, but was God embodied.

You are contradicting yourself here, because the blood sacrifices of the Old Testament were for only the most innocent of sins. Those which the person was unaware or had done unintentionally.

So you say God doesn't change the law to fit circumstances, or to grant favors, but then you follow that up with exactly that. A change in the law where blood sacrifice atones for all the sins, and that it was done as a favor to men.

Sin and Atonement : Who Needs the Blood?

There is no article of faith that is more central to the Church than the belief in the atoning value of Jesus’ sacrificial death at Calvary. Missionaries never miss an opportunity to point out the inability to expiate sin “without the shedding of blood.” Is this claim really true? In this crucial lecture, Rabbi Singer compares the concepts of sin and atonement as set forth by Christianity and Judaism utilizing a thorough presentation of their biblical sources.

Surely you aren't suggesting that the Jewish people have just given up and don't believe in atonement. They don't sacrifice animials, why not? Well, as I found out it's because blood sacrifice is the least form of atonement for sins, and is not considered in high esteems at all. As it turns out, the ones who put such a heavy emphasis on blood sacrifices were the pagans.

In most cases, the bible(OT) actually speaks against such things, and puts them down. But now according to you that was changed and from the least, it is now the highest form, not to mention changing what it is atonement for.

Psalm 40:6 Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.

Listen to the audio on the link, I highly recommend it. It goes into detail on atonement and gives examples and things you can look up directly in the bible.

But basically you are saying that god does change the law and such for men when you say Jesus was a blood sacrifice.




[edit on 8/24/2009 by badmedia]