Big Conflict! Christian over 30 years dealing with New Info Need Help, What Is True?

reply to post by jmdewey60


And btw, Leo actually says that one must walk the path. And that one must keep the commandments and such. She is not at all telling her mother a way that is easier, she is talking about the narrow path and the joy in finding and actually understanding those things.

She recently made a thread about one must having to walk the path, rather than just giving lip service and believing Jesus did those things so you don't have too.

The reason Grandma is having such a difficulty is because she is able to see the wisdom and understanding Leo is showing her. Not because it's all about "feeling good" and what not.

I don't know if you missed that part, but Leo Virgo who posts here is her daughter, so you can see directly what Leo believes and talks about in her posts here.

It is by no means an "easier" path, or anything of the sort. You are misrepresenting things to present them in that context. I would guess that as Grandma is her mother, she would recognize such a thing, but it is the wisdom that is being shown she is troubled with.

Hope I'm not misstating things, but I hold Leo in very high regard as being one with good understanding and I don't at all like someone taking that and reducing it down into some kind of superficial self gratification thing.

There is nothing perverse about it, and should be expected when people find the father. It is exactly what is said will happen.

Proverbs 8

17I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me.

18Riches and honour are with me; yea, durable riches and righteousness.

19My fruit is better than gold, yea, than fine gold; and my revenue than choice silver.

20I lead in the way of righteousness, in the midst of the paths of judgment:

21That I may cause those that love me to inherit substance; and I will fill their treasures.

So "gnosticism" is the goal. It means "with knowledge", and that is what the father gives those who find him. Leo is merely sharing and showing that.


[edit on 8/24/2009 by badmedia]

reply to post by badmedia

So "gnosticism" is the goal. It means "with knowledge", and that is what the father gives those who find him. Leo is merely sharing and showing that.

Not just that. It's a new god. I did catch that about who her daughter was and did a search on her posts before I made my first reply. Gramna's latest post added some more information about what her problem was with what her daughter was sharing with her.
I can see why you would agree with Leo/Virgo but does the path include eliminating the basis of Christianity that others hold to be true? It might be a good idea for people with special gnosis to keep it to themselves. Gnosticism has another god and a different Jesus who just happens to have the same name as the Jesus who Christians believe in. If the goal is knowing a special wisdom, then, as far as I can tell from my mere ordinary wisdom, the fulfilment of your desire is your reward and enjoy it while you can because that is the end of the road for whoever rejects the blood of Christ. If I am wrong then Christianity as a whole is wrong and worthless. I happen to be of the opinion that it is the other way around.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
Not just that. It's a new god. I did catch that about who her daughter was and did a search on her posts before I made my first reply. Gramna's latest post added some more information about what her problem was with what her daughter was sharing with her.

I can see why you would agree with Leo/Virgo but does the path include eliminating the basis of Christianity that others hold to be true?

Gaining knowledge and understanding is what the bible and religions around the world teach.

Jesus speaks and does what he does in order to give people understanding. When asked why he speaks in parables, he says so.

Take a look at Proverbs 9. Do you notice the similarities with it and the last super? There is a reason why.

1Wisdom hath builded her house, she hath hewn out her seven pillars:

2She hath killed her beasts; she hath mingled her wine; she hath also furnished her table.

3She hath sent forth her maidens: she crieth upon the highest places of the city,

4Whoso is simple, let him turn in hither: as for him that wanteth understanding, she saith to him,

5Come, eat of my bread, and drink of the wine which I have mingled.

6Forsake the foolish, and live; and go in the way of understanding.

7He that reproveth a scorner getteth to himself shame: and he that rebuketh a wicked man getteth himself a blot.

8Reprove not a scorner, lest he hate thee: rebuke a wise man, and he will love thee.

9Give instruction to a wise man, and he will be yet wiser: teach a just man, and he will increase in learning.

10The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.

Jesus was a carpenter, and these are the kinds of houses he helped people build. It is that which he founded within peter. It's in the OT, and it's in the life and example of Jesus.

And you say this is a new god? Do you think when Jesus refers to the father, he is speaking of the things he read in scripture? Do you not believe him when he says all the things he can do, you can do and more? Would that not include the father? And do you not believe him when he says the father is within, or the OT which talks of what the father gives those who loves and finds him?

Are you saying she has received a serpent when she asked for a fish? What do you think Jesus means when he says to the pharisees they do not enter, and they do not allow others either? As I see it, you are doing the same thing.

So you talk about a personal relationship with the father and such, but when you actually see it in others, you deny it. Hell will come before you allow it.

It might be a good idea for people with special gnosis to keep it to themselves. Gnosticism has another god and a different Jesus who just happens to have the same name as the Jesus who Christians believe in.

The religion you know is that which has gotten it's place due to it shutting those up who talked of such things, Jesus included. If people didn't go along with the Christian religion, they were killed, tortured and burned in public - to remind all what should happen if they dare go against that. Christianity as a religion is a continuation of the way things were during the time of Jesus, the pharisees are still there, just different names. And those with understanding are able to see it. Now we live in a time where it can be spoken, and if you want to shut me up, you'll have to impose that on me.

The truth shutting up is the only chance the lie has.

If the goal is knowing a special wisdom, then, as far as I can tell from my mere ordinary wisdom, the fulfilment of your desire is your reward and enjoy it while you can because that is the end of the road for whoever rejects the blood of Christ.

It's not really a "special wisdom", and to be honest while men have been blinded from it, it's not actually hidden either. It's just something you have to seek, rather than what you have accepted.

If I am wrong then Christianity as a whole is wrong and worthless. I happen to be of the opinion that it is the other way around.

So what you are saying is that if Jesus didn't die for your sins, then it's all worthless and doesn't matter? If he instead gave you an example to follow, a lesson on how to be and an understanding of things beyond the physical it has no value?

Who is it that is only looking for their rewards again?

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

How does 1 keep the commandments?

Psalm 111:10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth for ever.

By understanding.

Proverbs 9:10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.

Knowledge of the holy(gnosis) is understanding. Jesus speaks in parables why? To give understanding.

What is the highest form of atonement in the OT? Repenting for sins. Which means to fix our mistakes. And what does Jesus himself say he has come for? To call sinners to repentance. And so by giving understanding, he shows you how to receive that atonement. Because a good understanding have they that follow the commandments.

So he offers and shows you the way to what is considered the highest form of atonement, but you instead replace that with a sacrifice. But Jesus says - I desire mercy, not sacrifice. The OT says - I desire mercy, not sacrifice. It says to not get caught up in blood.

But rather than that, you would say just believe in the blood sacrifice? Was it not a sin for those to have killed him? If I remember it right it was those who had him brought there who carried the biggest sin. So now you are saying that an act of sin by man is what saves men from sin, that the truth/divine was sacrificed and by that, you could live.

Why choose the death of truth as what saves you, rather than the understanding and life that truth shows you? Isn't that ultimately what she is saying when she says you must walk the path?

reply to post by Grandma


Well I finally decided it was ok for me to join the conversation that involves talking about me, *laughs*

Ill try to give the same perspectives I would give anyone on here, asking the same questions as the OP (my mom) did.

Ill make several posts so I can try to keep them pertaining to certain responses.

First-

Mom...you wrote the following in your opening posts

My question to other Christians is, how do you handle situtions like this? It's not so simple. When the other person bringing this "good news" to you has some truth to it that as a seeker of new wisdom you find you must sift it and weigh it. Then you compare it with your wisdom and find maybe there is truth in what she is bringing to you and it totally rocks you to your core. Who is right? What do you believe now? What wisdom do you fall back on?

The issue here is this. According to what I understand about being a Christian...if someone approaches you with wisdom or understanding that goes against what the 'christian' way is.....then you should do as the other poster said...which is 'flee'. Most of them run and clinch their book. For their book tells them to not look outside, do not use your own reasoning. Most Christians from what I understand....will not even think about looking at outside wisdom's. Many wont even look into history of other people besides the Jews or Hebrews.

I was raised, as you know, a Christian, in a Christian home. A little over 3 years ago I began to feel like my spirit was searching deeper truths, truth that actually seemed to hold a life of spirit in it. My soul began to seek other ideas, and this was not easy!! I had to work through a guilty conscious that Christianity and the Bible placed in my mind....that I should not use intuition or reasoning to understand God or to understand mans history. It took alot of alone time with me, myself and I (and of course with my spirit) to claim my birth right of being born on a sphere without a requirement for my spiritual thinking. It took me months to open up my mind. Many of my strengths actually came from the bible....such as seeing with one eye allows the body to be filled with light....or the parables that showed me to seek within me, within nature, seek where life is.

I can remember wanting to share with someone what I was learning...but if you remember right, you were totally against what I was seeking. This part of my path was for over a year and it was a path I had to go alone. To be sure of my relation with Thee...I had to not have other influences, other thoughts, I had to go within for a long time.

Before your NDE, you were somewhat curious of the Gospels that were found in Egypt, Tibet, and what the Catholic Church keeps away in their library. I shared a few things with you that I was reading and we shared some ideas on some possibilities. By this time, I had pretty much moved away from all books for my wisdom's, but I found alot of knowledge in all books and all histories. The wisdom, from any knowledge, should come within from the Holy Spirit. So no matter who you ask "what would you do"....that answer is not good enough. Only you can know and seek. Many are not willing to look outside of the Bible and feel it is the word of God. My view on that is that the word of God can not be placed into a material object that does not hold life. The word of God is life. Everyone fears that God has left us and we have been givin instructions from God directly and those instructions were placed in a book. I totally disagree with that and will never believe again that God had to leave us directions in a book. BUT...still, there can be knowledge gained from why certain man believed what they did, how the belief evolved from a former belief, how the same traditions and practices get passed on and on and on, and how each new belief seems to think it has contact with a whole new God.

God is so magnificent.....that our world was made with everything we need for our knowledge and wisdom's, right here in the template of Mother Earth. We are not to cling to material things....but half of the world clings to a book. Half of the world thinks God needed a death for us to be saved. Half of the world thinks that God required man to kill animals for their sins...which leads to the killing of a human man. I can look and see why man thought what they did due to mostly the land that they came from. Humanity is a unit, and we havent even began to touch this understanding....we will see ourselves as individuals for thousands of years to come. All of this believing was perfectly fit for the time of man....man, as a unit, is evolving with their thoughts and consciousness of 'being'. There were many blood sacrifices going on back when the OT would of been written....I believe the teaching originally of burning the fat from the animals were much deeper then what the simple man understood....but yet, the simple man tried to place the simple understanding that sacrifices were for sins...and were needed by God. I think the earliest understandings of killing an animal and the fat burning away was the understanding of a transfiguration of 'life'. This goes back to when things like Alchemy was practiced. The truest alchemy for wisdom and not knowledge is that our bodies can be transfigured into another realm/dimension/heaven. Its not the material body...but yet we very well could carry some sort of image of this body with us....due to hearing other NDE and OBE.

To really think anyone has 'truth' is a gamble. Its not truth Im searching, its understanding of what is around me, what mans history was and why, what Earths history is and why. I want to find God through everything that God placed here...which is not man made things. Man has created many many things that are supposed to pertain to God...but we must remember, man made them.

As a Christian, you should not look outside of the Bible....according to the general view of what a Christian follows. Why you specifically asked for Christians opinions is somewhat odd....cause you know what that general answer would be. The issue with labels is a huge problem for all humans. We wnat to group eachother and ourselves with others. This is ok, but it is also a crutch. You must determine why you need another Christians opinion on this....why not a Buddahist opinion...why not a Native Indians opinoin....why not a Universalists opinion? Because your real issue is your having trouble disassociating yourself with a 'group'? You possibly were very proud to be a part of a group with like minded thoughts. Mabey....

Only you and you alone can decide what is right for your soul and spirit. Others can only tell you what they found for themselves...and you can then weigh and sift that....but still it comes back to you and you alone.

Much luv (continued)

Another part of my spirit making turns in my belief was your experiences. Oddly enough, even though you say you have issues with reincarnation, you were the one that looked at me and said your mother has been reborn. Most of my beliefs were only beliefs without merit until your experience....than many of my bliefs gained a foundation. I gained alot of my understandings from your experience. The idea of relearning, God being only love, karmic cycles, the idea that we are creating here with our thoughts, so many of my 'thoughts' become a understandings through your experience.

Do you have to gain that same foundation from your experiences? NO, you surely do not. You can look at it as what ever you feel is best for you. I cant pass it off though...I was waiting to be shown things...and believe I was, through you.

No one should ever think they know it all about God and our being. That is very shallow and dangerous. The idea that we are spiritual beings on a path resonates deeply with me. My own reasoning understand that within nature, all the answers are woven there....within life. God would of never 'left' and if God was ever here....NO ONE would doubt what Thee was. This is all mans ideas of 'evil' people and man using other mans wrongs and differences against them. God is a great pawn to have in ones court is it not??

Someone mentioned that personal wisdom's should be kept to thee self. Ya know....how many times did you tell me that I should start preaching what I was discovering....and how many times did I tell you....this was not things I could share with the world. A personal relation should be respected and how can a person show another what they feel the Holy Spirit has shown them. Its surely not the same as when the wisdom fell on the person...then the person passing on that wisdom. If it wasnt for you being my mother and us living next door to each other and the fact that I care for you every day....I probably would of not had the opportunities to share with you what I feel is wisdom's. I dont think you have a bias for me being your daughter because before I reached the point I am at now, there were things I was studying that you didnt bat an eye to....you only batted an eye after you had the experience you had with your NDE that seemed to of went against your main belief.

I just happen to be the witness and the other person that had beliefs that aligned more with your experience then your own. Happenstance? I dont kinow. Its only been a little over a year that your thoughts have doubted themselves. My path that involved my mind changing and bending was almost 3 years....and its finally feeling like a foundation for me, I am finally not doing as much seeking as I am understanding now.

There needs to be deep seeking....one needs to ask themselves why they believe what they believe. Why do they need the label. Why do they need a savior. Can they not do what it takes to move beyond this sphere without someone else taking the burden. What kind of spiritual being would that make us....

Much luv
Me

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by Grandma

 

There's nothing new about that kind of thinking and it is gnosticism.
People can happily be under this delusion but whatever enjoyment they get out of it in this life is all they will get. Avoiding the suffering in favor of the pleasurable, instead of dealing with the truth that can be troublesome in some aspects now, in the hopes of reward in the next life.
Jesus did not come to make people comfortable, or to make things convenient for people. Jesus is sometimes called the man of sorrows and he was not promising immediate gratification.
The continued existence of mankind has been from the beginning upheld by Jesus' sacrifice. "Before Abraham was, I am" is not just a nice way of making himself seem special, it is about his substitution for us, and his ability to do it, as the Son of God.
The blood is what Jesus as the High Priest pleads on our behalf as the satisfaction of the demands of justice imposed by a holy law. God does not change the Law to fit circumstances or to grant favors. Something had to be done and out of compassion for those who would benefit from this intervention, God payed the penalty Himself, through His Son, who was more than just any person, but was God embodied.

Hello...

Just because someone uses the world 'gnostic' does not mean they believe all of the gnostic text or the labeling of gnostic religion. I do agree that the OT God image is not the image of the Supreme Monad of all life...the relation I have with the spirit as a relation that takes knowledge and seeks out the wisdom from that knowledge. Through this transfiguring, the wisdom brings understanding. This relation didnt happen in one day....it was a humbling experience that took a year at least. I discovered one day within the Bible, the advice of 'weighing' and 'sifting' everything and everyone...even the people who the Bible speaks of. Many may say I am mislead....but I say, I have just now started to be led. It is beautiful and so peaceful....this relation.

My belief does not make my path any easier....if anything, it has encouraged me to really do right....be aware what I do with my time and my being. I am more aware now of my behaviors and my actions then ever before.

Why do you feel someone elses blood needs to be shed? Can you not do right and be right in your ways? I think Jesus showed us that it is possible to be strong against temptations. He showed us we are to transform ourselves for the higher realm. Why good would it do for Jesus to carry our load....what kind of person/spiritual being would that make us? Christianity is so full of passing the buck-either blame Satan for misleading you or place your load on Jesus for its too much to carry. Time is changing though...and there are people who are living right and they do not need this belief in a blood sacrifice. They are living right because they believe it to BE right. The moment a person can relate that the Divine nature does not need blood letting is the moment Jesus' purpose changes in their minds. At the same time, Gods nature remains divine and holy....without blemish...without regret...without mistakes. What would of made the OT God any different then the other claimed Gods...they all were making sacrifices, they all had special days, they all had prophecies that involved a God born by a virgin into a human body, they all involved some material practice that freed them from their wrongs, they all involved and focused around the idea of a 'special people chosen by God'. We must be careful to not let the true Divine and Holy nature get tainted by mans primal ways of belief. The idea that a blood shed must occur for any reason is very carnal, its not divine in any way.

[edit on 25-8-2009 by LeoVirgo]

reply to post by jmdewey60


Are you not even curious as to why other texts were written about a God and Jesus that have different ideas? Are you not curious as to why those writings are some of the earliest writings of the man called Jesus? Are you not at all curious as to why these people died for these writings?

To stick with the Christian teachings...one can not be curious...they cant allow themselves to even think for a moment that a truth might be found outside of the Bible. I dont cling to any writings...but I read many and gain understanding about the people that wrote them and about the history of the land and the people. I dont think any sect of people had all the answers....but I do think they all held a piece of wisdom. God does not need a special people or land. God is all about unity. It is little things like this the Holy Spirit will show if one is seeking Thee. There are things the books will not tell you but only your inner most purest nature can lead you to understand. It is not an easier path at all....how can it be easier then being handed all the answers?

reply to post by LeoVirgo


Hey, glad you are posting. I felt somewhat out of place defending you, but I couldn't let it go. Just isn't in my nature, sorry. It eats at me when such things go unchecked, and gives me a feeling like I'm ignoring a baby crying in a ditch.

Did you ever get a chance to listen to that Rabbi I posted a link too? It has really helped me in understanding the OT in a different way, and has been able to put to rest a good bit of my concerns.

Apparently, blood sacrifice is not really wanted in the OT. And that made alot more sense.

He speaks alot of understanding, and I think it may help ease your mind as it has mine. He says the same things in regards to blood sacrifice.

reply to post by badmedia


I really appreciate you speaking out for me on here....I was really unsure of how I would post here without coming off as a daughter arguing with her mother. I want others to knwo that we dont sit around conflicting all the time...we have a great relation and it does not always consists of our spiritual ideas. It took me a few days to be able to see how to address the post here. I think you said some great things, especially about how Jesus's life is defiantly not meaningless if the idea of blood sacrifices gets thrown out. There is so much to learn from the life of Jesus...and we both have commented many times how humans want the focus on the death.

I did listen to the link you gave me...I had issues with the idea that these people in the OT were really talking with God, but the Rabbi seems to have a different view point that was somewhat refreshing. Its not that I find the OT to be totally untrue about people knowing what God would want...but I find the parts few and far between of a person really trying to live a life of pureness. If one cant understand that God doesnt want us to kill...then how could God of dwelled with so many of those men who wanted to kill for the land? To give too much time to the OT requires me to believe that God needed a chosen people and that God needed a chosen land...my spirit bucks like a wild horse at these ideas.

How do feel about God needing a chosen people and land?

Originally posted by LeoVirgo
I really appreciate you speaking out for me on here....I was really unsure of how I would post here without coming off as a daughter arguing with her mother. I want others to knwo that we dont sit around conflicting all the time...we have a great relation and it does not always consists of our spiritual ideas. It took me a few days to be able to see how to address the post here. I think you said some great things, especially about how Jesus's life is defiantly not meaningless if the idea of blood sacrifices gets thrown out. There is so much to learn from the life of Jesus...and we both have commented many times how humans want the focus on the death.

Debate and discussion is healthy IMO. I think that is what Jesus means when he says when 2 or more people are discussing him, then he will be among them. Understanding grows from these things. I don't really see that as being the same thing as when a preacher stands up in front of people for an hour on sunday. May give some people some talking points, but the real deal is what might happen after when people discuss things, such as we do here.

Personally, I think it's great you even talk about these things with your mom. I do not ever talk about these kinds of things with my mom. As odd as it may sound, I would rather talk to complete strangers than family. Because like you said before, the real answers can't come from other people, but only from within.

It might be surprising to some, but I am extremely quite and keep to myself outside these forums about these things. Those who know me in real life would probably be amazed that I even have opinions on these things.

So I think it's great the 2 of you can talk about it. It's not an easy thing to do.

I did listen to the link you gave me...I had issues with the idea that these people in the OT were really talking with God, but the Rabbi seems to have a different view point that was somewhat refreshing. Its not that I find the OT to be totally untrue about people knowing what God would want...but I find the parts few and far between of a person really trying to live a life of pureness. If one cant understand that God doesnt want us to kill...then how could God of dwelled with so many of those men who wanted to kill for the land? To give too much time to the OT requires me to believe that God needed a chosen people and that God needed a chosen land...my spirit bucks like a wild horse at these ideas.

How do feel about God needing a chosen people and land?

Yes, I have the same general problems you do with the OT. But then there is like proverbs and psalms that I really really like. I still do not believe in blood sacrifice as atonement, and don't think it is needed. I deep down feel they have misunderstood something that was supposed to be more allegorical or bring about an understanding of something different.

But I was very happy to hear that repenting for sins is the highest form of atonement for them. Because that is also what I learned and I agree with that. And when I look at Jesus, that is what I personally see him showing as well. It also put my mind at ease that the blood sacrifices were actually put down in the OT in the majority of cases, telling people to not get caught up in blood sacrifice. So those things really helped me with my problems towards the OT.

It was also interesting to know that it was the Pagans of the time who put all the emphasis on sacrifices. I just seen a thing last night on TV that was talking about even human sacrifice. Now what interested me about all this are the existing things which we know are of pagan origin, rather than Judaism or Jesus, which are all throughout the NT outside of Jesus. That is dealing with the sun worship, moving things to Sunday as Dewey and Locoman will remind us, and of course holidays such as Christmas and Easter - which are actually based on the sunrise. Even the parts of Jesus rising after 3 days is part of the sun, and in this way they equate Jesus as being the sun itself.

I think that stuff is evidence of manipulation about Jesus and what he really did. And the change of Jesus talking about repenting for sins - which happens to be the highest form of atonement for the Jewish and is what you and I see, into it being about a blood sacrifice, the least form of atonement in the OT - a form that I find questionable even as the lowest and limited form being symbolic at best even if true and yet at the same time, a mainstay in the part of the pagan religion of the time. Is this coincidence even when all the known parts of paganism is in there as well?

It was really the gentiles and Romans who accepted this form of Christianity. The Jews are still Jews, and the pagans of Roman became Christians as being that of the "new age" for them, of which is about to happen again for them.

So it didn't really change my overall way of seeing things, I still believe exactly the same as I did before in terms of what is right for me, right to do and what is true etc.

But it did change my and bring a bit of understanding towards the history of things, and now some things I thought a bit odd in how things could happen.

Maybe in the grand scheme of things it is progress. It did get rid of sacrifices for pagans, and did turn pagans closer to the truth. Maybe soon they will start to see the sacrifice for what it is, and instead start choosing that repenting for sins thing instead, along with wisdom and understanding needed in order to do that.

No, I don't buy "God's chosen people" thing at all. More likely is "People who have chosen God". Check out Samuel in the OT, where the Jewish people do not choose god, chapter 10 if I remember right. Wherever you find real wisdom and understanding, you can bet the father is near. I can find examples of that across the world, such as with Buddha, Gandhi and even further back in time for others. I find that the real understandings and truth behind these things is as universal as the understanding of math. I can listen to an American Indian talk, and understand exactly what he is talking about. He may say Great Spirit rather than Father, but I know what he means. A rose by any other name looks and smells the same.

reply to post by Grandma


What is it that Leo Virgo revealed to you that shakes the foundations of your faith and all that you know? It would help to know this for a better reply.

Hi,

i was reading all this,
and want to focus on this point:

Relgions think they do understand their religion
by the rules and agreements they developed..

but what they have difficulties with to 'admit' or 'see'
is that maybe their version is a half truth and
maybe their books go a lot deeper and find
agreement, all those holy books in the one truth of god...

but for that they have to let go of what other people
tell them, just as you said that truth is within...

IF christians would understand their book,
and muslims and jewish people would understand their book,
they would realise there is no disagreement,
and i do not mean it on the unproven way of
spiritualism, i do believe all those books are full
sources of full knowledge that is hidden in plain sight.

It is because of reading those books demands ONE THING
of you :

your god, who is he ?

if you know that, you can start to undestand the parables and
the symbols and the offers and the measurements and the prophesies...

if you take the wrong god, you will find the wrong truth in those books,
that is the problem of religion,
they did not realise their god yet fully..
when it is stated in the 3 big religions

your god is one, everything
love him, everything,
with all your heart
how ?
repenting = seeing
forgiveness = understanding = turn bad into right
where starts god ?
where everything is right you are in god perspective
before that, you grow towards it..

jesus said one with everything = the father
it means that searching truth is a believer
living care makes you a believer...

reply to post by badmedia


Thanks for the reply badmedia, I find it all so beautiful seeing how all the beliefs possibly had some sort of understanding about an aspect of 'the great spirit' lets say (I like that one) but as well I can look at them and see their earthly natures that distorts 'the great spirit'.

Originally posted by LeoVirgo
reply to post by jmdewey60

 

Are you not even curious as to why other texts were written about a God and Jesus that have different ideas? Are you not curious as to why those writings are some of the earliest writings of the man called Jesus? Are you not at all curious as to why these people died for these writings?

To stick with the Christian teachings...one can not be curious...they cant allow themselves to even think for a moment that a truth might be found outside of the Bible. I dont cling to any writings...but I read many and gain understanding about the people that wrote them and about the history of the land and the people. I dont think any sect of people had all the answers....but I do think they all held a piece of wisdom. God does not need a special people or land. God is all about unity. It is little things like this the Holy Spirit will show if one is seeking Thee. There are things the books will not tell you but only your inner most purest nature can lead you to understand. It is not an easier path at all....how can it be easier then being handed all the answers?

I am very curious and have been reading about gnostics for twenty five years and have a gnostic library. The thing is that it is not Christianity. Gnosticism does not require a historical person and they can name the person in their gospels anything they want. It just happens that they found it convenient to use the name Jesus.
The Jesus that Christians believe in is an actual historical person who really existed and happened to have died by Crucifixion. You can demonstrate your concern about blood sacrifice but there is something about his death that was necessary. Jesus forgave people of their sins and he could do that because it was what he did that enabled them to be forgiven.
The Old Testament ceremonial Law was a way for God to teach people the difference between the holy and the profane, the clean and the unclean, and that a payment had to be made for sin. This was on a scale that was understandable to man. On a larger scale, divine justice involves the principalities and powers. One of these powers was Satan who left his place and was to be punished. Satan expected God to ignore the laws and let him have his place back. God decided not to and Satan thought he could force God's hand by making man fall. God's prized creation that was the reason for making the physical universe in the first place. God would have to bend the rules in that case, or so Satan thought. God stepped in as a person to pay the price and redeem mankind. This ruins Satan's plan, but he does not give up quite yet. If he can just get man to not believe in God's sacrifice and think they can just live good lives, so may people would be lost that God would have to finally relent and abrogate the law far enough that Satan gets back into heaven.

reply to post by LeoVirgo

Hello...

Just because someone uses the world 'gnostic' does not mean they believe all of the gnostic text or the labeling of gnostic religion. I do agree that the OT God image is not the image of the Supreme Monad of all life...

Thanks for the interesting reply. I definitely did not expect for you to be jumping into the fray, since Bad Media seemed to be doing a good job of defending you.
I typed up a paragraph from the book Misquoting Jesus:

Marcion was completely absorbed by the life and teachings of the Apostle Paul, whom he considered to be the one “true” Apostle from the early days of the church. In some of his letters, such as Romans and Galatians, Paul had taught that a right standing with God came only by faith in Christ, not by doing any of the works prescribed by the Jewish law. Marcion took this differentiation between the law of the Jews and faith in Christ to what he saw as its logical conclusion, that there was an absolute distinction between the law on the one hand and the gospel on the other. So distinct were the law and the gospel, in fact, that both could not come from the same God. Marcion concluded that the God of Jesus (and Paul) was not, therefore, the God of the Old Testament. There were, in fact, two different Gods: the God of the Jews, who created the world, called Israel to be his people, and gave them a harsh law; and the God of Jesus, who sent Christ into the world to save people from the wrathful vengeance of the creator God.

reply to post by jmdewey60


Excuse me, but saying "gnostic" does not mean I belong to some religion. I have not read any of their books and I have no idea what they say. The extent of my knowledge on the gnostics is that I know Sophia = knowledge, and they strive for knowledge of the holy - which I agree with.

But I do not find it coincidental that I agree with them more in general about things, and they have been persecuted by the church.

My understanding and knowledge does not come from any man, from any religion, or from any books. It comes from actually knowing the father and having my own experiences. Of which I could not even recognize in comparison of Christianity, but I have no problem recognizing the father in Jesus and knowing he is telling the truth.

Because the extent of your knowledge comes from men, you just can't even imagine someone gaining knowledge outside a book or religion - despite the book your claim to go by saying that specifically will happen.

I don't remember saying you were. (if I did, sorry)
I think what I wanted to point out was something about a descriptive phrase in the OP about "new teaching".
It sounds like old teaching to me, as in the Gnostics and Marcionites.
I do not want to imply that you or Leo/Virgo belong to these or any other religion, or that you could not have come to your beliefs on your own.

[edit on 27-8-2009 by jmdewey60]

reply to post by jmdewey60


Such as? I am not familiar with their religion, but from what I've read and seen of the gnostics, I am in much more agreement with them than I am you.

All I have to say here is be very careful Grandma ..there is no NEW WAY ..
And there is danger in believing in other ways (especially since you have already KNOWN THE TRUTH )....Scripture even says this would come (a great falling away from the truth ) ...and the turning of the truth of GOD into a lie ...and there is danger to the believer who turns away from the truth .


Hbr 10:26 ¶ For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Hbr 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Hbr 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Hbr 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Notice verse 10 ......this is exactly what they are doing ...counting the blood of the covenant as an UNHOLY THING >....and have trodden under foot the SON OF GOD ....and what he did they consider an unholy thing (since they speak so light of it and consider it something that was unecessary ) ....

Remember Grandma there is devil who can come off as an ANGEL OF LIGHT and only he would make the cross as none affect (as if it never happened nor did it need to happen )

There was a purpose for it ...dont let the devil lead you into everlasting death (by making the death of Christ as meaningless).........
satan would truly be happy if he could convince all of this ...


Scripture says over and over again to HOLD FAST WHAT THOU HAST BEEN TAUGHT ...because deception is rampant in this world ...especially in the end times (as we are in now) ......satan knows he has but a short time ..he is taking full advantage of it ..

The point of the cross and the death of Jesus

Hbr 9:23 ¶ [It was] therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
Hbr 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, [which are] the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
Hbr 9:25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
Hbr 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Hbr 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Hbr 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

He wasnt just some hippie rebel ....who died for nothing ....

It is so important of a belief *JESUS IS THE SON OF GOD and that HE DIED FOR US ............ that many have BEEN KILLED for NOT GIVING HEED TO DOCTRINES OF DEMONS and doctrines of men (other ways )....

Do you get that ...THEY WERE KILLED (and still are being killed ) for BELIEVING JESUS IS THE ONLY WAY .....(not beleiving that Jesus was a way ) but THE WAY .................