I am 23, an American Citizen with government run health care.

Originally posted by pjoelro
btw i did address this by talking about lumping this in with regular taxes we allready pay. Did you not ready my statement fully before attempting to pick it apart, or did you just chose to ignore that part, Im curious.

Yes I did notice, that's where the redistribution of wealth comments toward the end of my reply came from.

Since you think it is completely appropriate for those with more money to pay for those with less.

It only sounds god to those who have less.

Originally posted by The dragon is taking over
reply to post by redhatty

 

So you're going to be a bitch because you believe that not everyone deserves to have health care? What about the families where the father died when they were eight years old, and the mother was a stay at home mom with 3 children, and when the father died, who was IN FACT a high end engineer, took all private insurance with him to the grave because the family can't pay for it anymore?

Strawman argument. There is already a program in place, called Social Security that covers this situation. Mom & all 3 kids would not only receive a monthly SS check, but also would receive healthcare through Medicaid/Medicare.

I am a recovering addict too, but I don't think people who didn't make the same mistakes I made should be forced to make up for my bs! Take responsibility for yourself and MAKE YOUR LIFE BETTER!

Originally posted by The dragon is taking over
reply to post by dawnstar

 

How are they going to make it more affordable if we keep in the hands of private companies? Everyone's capitalistic side tells the government they have no right to interfere with regulations of independent companies, that means that those companies will have the right of saying who get's healthcare and who doesn't, and technically, who will die because of their decisions.

I'm all for paying for your own healthcare if you can afford it, I'm in no way saying private business should get out, but denying government run healthcare completely is just stupid.

You really want to put people lives in the hand of a business? Let's not forget that health insurance companies are still businesses for profit, and can approve or deny anyone they want, because they can't afford it, hence giving them no profit.

PLUS have you even checked the list of factors that result in health care providers DENYING coverage? You can't have a freaken bunion on your feet now, because that could be cause you to need pain meds/doc visits/even surgery to get it removed. They don't even want to cover those in risky jobs like police men or fire fighters.

What is the public doing by denying universal health care?

well, ya know, our economy seemed to function better, seemed to work for more people when we were capitalists!!! the recent numbers I heard was something like, well....25% or the people are on some form of gov't program (gov't employees are included in this number), 25% are without health insurance at the current time (some want to be though), and that leaves around 50% that are non government employees that are insured.
okay, take out the government employees, add the ones that are insured and still couldn't afford the healthcare, and well, you still get about 50% of the population that the current system isn't working for.
ummm.....we were poor when I was growing up, the social safety net was just being born and wasn't that much help, we didn't have insurance, and well.....I got better healthcare back then, much more affordable than we have now!
when I said focus on making things more affordable for the people, well, it covers much more than just the healthcare! unless we can get wages up some, and the cost of living down some, well......we are fighting a losing battle here, since the cost is gonna keep g oing up, the wages going down or sitting where they are at, more people needing help, and the government who ain't gonna say a word to the businesses about their inflationary practices (healthcare, by what I read, has risen 400% since 2000. gee has you wages gone up that much, mine sure hasn't!
them coming up with another government program to help more of those that need it, it ain't gonna matter much!! since it's the people who have watched the cost of living rise and rise, and who's pay hasn't risen much if at all, that end up paying for these programs! which will just make them unable to afford to live, and needing help themselves.
if we were pure capitalists, well, that healthcare wouldn't have gone up that high, it wouldn't have been able to, since well.....the industry would have lost customers in droves. but it isn't...
if it was pure socialist, it more than likely wouldn't have risen that much either, since the gov't would have been in control and well, they'd have a bunch of angry taxpayers to answer to. but it isn't...
it's a hybrid of the two....you don't pay for your healthcare I imagine, you might pay a health insurance company who then pools all that money together, and through the art of shoddy bookkeeping and shady deals manages to pay for your healthcare, rf you are looking at the government to pay it. or well, some don't have either and well, they just have a heart attack when the bill comes in!if this person doesn't pay, well they just shift the amount over to the rest of their customers, if this insurance company here refuses to pay that much, well, what they refuse to pay they just shift over to another company, the gov't or other patients...
if all else fails, they just claim it as a loss, and well, still can show a profit, because they are charging insane charges to begin with!

whenever I think of it, I think of the biblical verse about god wishing we were either hot or cold, but because we are lukewarm, he'll spit us out of his mouth for some reason. I don't really care which way they go, but well, chose one direction and start heading there! otherwise, bill gates ain't gonna be able to afford his healthcare, that's if he could now!

All of you people are missing the key fact ... This is not an "Option" anymore 750 dollar fine for individuals per year who do not get the "public option" 1500 for a family... illegal immigrants obviously do not have to pay the fine. if no one on this thread has ever worked at mcdonalds or fast food in general or hell even minimum wage... that means not being able to eat every other day. Funny thing is if you dont want to get fine you still have to pay 700 a year for the health insurance! meaning youll be healthy but very very hungry or possibly homeless as rent keeps skyrocketing on even the smallest apartments. Keep acting like your "saving 30 million uninsured" those uninsured, IM SURE, would rather eat and be sheltered.

You people make me sick

reply to post by conspiracyrus


It's just a give away to the insurance industry at the point of a gun. It escapes me how they expect to collect the fine from people that cannot afford insurance to begin with.

I'm right there with you folks. I'm sick of the idea that my tax dollars might help improve someone else's health.

I'm also tired of having to give out huge chunks of my hard earned money just to other people's kids can be educated.

And when a junky broke into my neighbor's house and raped his daughter, the leech had the nerve to call the cops to his house. Sure, they caught the guy, but you know who paid for that "justice?" Yours truly, with my taxes. I couldn't care less about his slut daughter and her problems. I'd rather have MY MONEY BACK!

And what's up with this military that I'm paying for? Nobody consulted me on this expenditure. What do I care if this country gets attacked? I live out in the middle of nowhere, by the time the enemy shows up at my house I'll be ready to die of natural causes anyway. You want the army to defend you? Fine, you pay my share. I'm not paying to protect some city I don't even live in.

Originally posted by redhatty
reply to post by iamjesusphish

 

So, YOUR BAD CHOICES have been subsidized by my taxes.

You CHOSE to do drugs, and this caused health problems, but MY TAXES are paying for your rehab and your medical treatment.

Of course you want to keep your free health care going, Me and the rest of the american tax-payers are paying your bills!!!!!

America really has become a nation of leeches, your post is just another example of that.

I used to agree with you, but now......

what does it matter really? Your taxes are being used to implement a one world government, and wasteful spending doesn't matter anymore.

One way or the other the national debt deficit is going to increase, and its already increased to the point where it cant be paid off.

At this point, why not?

Maybe my moral is low, but the way I see it now...Its not your tax dollars, its not mine, and its not being spent on anything beneficial.

I don't give a rats rear about the cost or paying for anything.

I just don't want MY health care run by the buffoon doctors.

My only comment on your addiction... not the same as everyone elses, addiction doesn't even exist for me in my life because I understand human health well enough that even if somehow I became addicted to anything i could pull myself right off it. I'd never be on a scrips that were addicted UNLESS some quack in white coat MADE me take them.

I am scared senseless by mandatory health insurance because I know it will become mandatory TREATMENTS

I appreciate the modern medical world in some way... I just like tp PAY a doc to essential run the test I tell him too and assign me any scrips I ask him to and not pass my records on to anyone else.

Many ;levles to this...

like Cancer a disease i don't believe is actually a disease... I don't want to be diagnosed with it and then given poison,.

Aids... they still think Hiv causes aids which is INSANE

They are great at surgeries and broken bones...

BUT MEDICINE?

Now way it's a medieval system of ignorance and treatment of symptoms...

I'm not against people having health care nor the price... I JUST DON'T WANT IT FOR MYSELF

And sadly I wont be allowed to live my life under what is being proposed, they will likely kill me young one way or another if I let them near me... screw them.

reply to post by redhatty


I believe the only way that they would get medicaid/medicare is if they qualified for it, if he was an high end engineer, more than likely there were assetts involved and till they are disposed up, well, they wouldn't qualify for those programs.

It's really a natural human habit to try to hold onto those things you've aquired, so, well, naturally the mom would be trying to hold onto what she has. so, well, she's got herself a long struggle downward before she and he kids can get that medicare/medicaid. Let's just hope that nothing major happens to her or her kids before that happens.

Originally posted by iamjesusphish
Now first off I am a recovering addict and without medicaid I would have died when I overdosed in 2004. Without Medicaid I would have been pushed off to a hospital that could not treat my Pulmonary Edema. My life was saved because of government run health care.

So. You are a burden on the taxpayer.

Its not just the 'rich' complaining. Average middle-class Americans are also complaining. 70%+ of the population does not want government controlled health care.

Its not our problem that you have issues.

iamjesusphish:

Your fellow countrymen were forced to subsidize your stupidity. You should have made this an apology thread instead ...

I find it hard to believe that this thread is still going - and that here so many small hard hearted and mean spirited people on ATS - I mean some of you folk are seriously disturbed with absolutely no compassion and no understanding, and clearly no religious training or at least not any that made a difference - the boy that put up the OP had a life changing experience, repented of his wrong choices and wrong doing and has attempted to make amends and is grateful for the help he received and all some of you can do is snipe talk about your f-ing pocketbook as if that were the be all and end all of your lives cause really that's what it comes down to -money- your hard earned cash went to help someone in need of life saving intervention and you would rather he what?...Died? ......sad..... just terribly sad...

reply to post by realshanti
I believe in the natural order of things.
I believe in Darwin.
I am also a Christian.

He is 'solely' responsible for his own actions. Healthcare is not a given right. Its a privilege. He wants others to pay for his errors.

Life can be cold, ridged, and painful. If he was not being responsible in the first place, death would have been the consequence of his own undoing. Life is just. Its the natural order of all things.

Its not me who has to repent to. It is his creator.

Yes. Since I have seen the abyss several times, and I have accepted life's dark reality, I have no problem saying that its all about individual choice and responsibility.

No one can help him except for him.

[edit on 28-9-2009 by Pathos]

reply to post by realshanti


I find it hard to believe that your going to force those same 30million uninsured to go without eating or shelter for healthcare they cant afford. once again its the Goverment "no Option" you a citizen? you pay... cant afford it? we fine you. Cant pay the fine becuase you wanted food and a roof? go to jail do not pass go do not collect your civil liberties

Isnt it funny that the worst atrocities are always committed under the guise of saving the weak?





[edit on 28-9-2009 by conspiracyrus]

Originally posted by SpacePunk
reply to post by conspiracyrus

 

It's just a give away to the insurance industry at the point of a gun. It escapes me how they expect to collect the fine from people that cannot afford insurance to begin with.

How to a collect a fine from people that can't afford insurance: (my thoughts)

-- unemployed? It will be deducted directly from your unemployment check.

-- have a car? Bet you can't get it registered, or your license renewed, until you are all paid up with the gov't.

-- income tax refund? you won't see this until you're square

-- employed? garnishing your paycheck is easy

You get the idea. That's one of the problems with having the Federal Government so entrenched in daily life -- they have the ability to prevent you from being able to function unless you are compliant.

Don't you think that now that the Federal Government is supplying the banks' the lifeline they need to stay afloat (read: stimulus / TARP) that the banks in turn are going to be a lot more forthcoming and cooperative with the Federal gov't in return?

One thing is for sure: Any deal that's made will have a pay-off for BOTH parties. It's usually only the general public that pays the price -- in this case, both figuratively and literally.

That's why I personally think that the greater the distance between the Federal Government and the companies we do business with, the better.

Originally posted by conspiracyrus
reply to post by realshanti

 

Isnt it funny that the worst atrocities are always committed under the guise of saving the weak?
[edit on 28-9-2009 by conspiracyrus]

They use it to get votes. What do you think the whole healthcare reform is about? Democrats want to get the votes of illegal immigrants, those in poverty, and minorities. Its all about votes in the form of creating a false sense of security.

Buying the vote.

Originally posted by lpowell0627
You get the idea. That's one of the problems with having the Federal Government so entrenched in daily life -- they have the ability to prevent you from being able to function unless you are compliant.

Obama voters sure bought into the whole, "VOTE FOR ME AND I WILL SET YOU FREE!" logic.

Sorry, Obama couldn't help a duck trying to cross the street.

When did we wake up and place trust into the government system? If this new generation of college students fears consequences, something serious went wrong in their birthing process.

[edit on 28-9-2009 by Pathos]

reply to post by conspiracyrus


I have a feeling that the government is going to balance this out by changing the equation for determining poverty level and eligibility for government assistance.

In other words, if they subtract out the cost for healthcare for those people making, say, $25K or less, that will become their new "adjusted income".

This will allow more people to qualify for government assistance programs -- hence driving up the cost for food stamps, welfare, etc.

In other words, if you currently make $26K per year, and mandated insurance is going to cost you $9K per year (taken directly out of your paycheck), then in the eyes of the government you now make $17K per year -- which would now qualify you for food stamps, whereas before you didn't.

In my opinion, that is where the hidden costs of such an overhaul lie.

Originally posted by redhatty
reply to post by iamjesusphish

 

So, YOUR BAD CHOICES have been subsidized by my taxes.

You CHOSE to do drugs, and this caused health problems, but MY TAXES are paying for your rehab and your medical treatment.

Of course you want to keep your free health care going, Me and the rest of the american tax-payers are paying your bills!!!!!

America really has become a nation of leeches, your post is just another example of that.

I agree with you that he made a bad choice doing drugs. But if you think socialized helathcare is a bad idea. Then explain why every western country has socialized health care and why every western country lives longer then you.

Originally posted by MyAwesomeFace
I agree with you that he made a bad choice doing drugs. But if you think socialized helathcare is a bad idea. Then explain why every western country has socialized health care and why every western country lives longer then you.

That is one weak argument... I could also say all western countries use the metric system and live longer or they drive on the left side of the road.

Maybe because other western countries don't eat at McDonald's every other day and refuse to do any physical activity unless it involves getting up for another beer. I don't think health care will solve obesity, drug abuse etc. We're treating the symptoms, not the disease