I am 23, an American Citizen with government run health care.

Originally posted by Woland

Originally posted by redhatty
The OP pays NO TAXES, as is clearly revealed in the course of the thread. So should someone who doesn't save their money and doesn't pay any taxes, be proclaiming the goodness of government run health care for everyone?

Um...

Originally posted by iamjesusphishdid you miss the part that said I am a tax paying citizen?

Care to go back an answer my question, properly? Then, I'll go back and answer yours.


Ummm read www.abovetopsecret.com... and before that post.

As to your question, why should Brittany pay for something I already provide for myself?

Should she have LESS than what she currently has just because I want to have what she has?

I don't think so. Do You?

You see, you chose a poor argument with regards to the security. I am already personally responsible for my home's security.

And as to the localities?? Property OWNERS pay for the services, even the services for those who do not own property.

edit to fix tags

[edit on 8/15/09 by redhatty]

reply to post by Yummy Freelunch


Would the OP be as willingly to support the Health Care bill if an equal percentage of the tax was shared and could never be redeemed in the form of a Tax Return?

Tell me OP, can you spare an additional 10% tax on your Gross Income?

How about you Yummy? That's just to skirt on by.. if we really wanted to fund Social Security, plus medical benefits the tax ceiling would have to be raised to approx. 60%, or a 20% increase, or a 30-40% increase on the poor.


Of course properly funding a program has never been a strong point of the Government... even Europe which has 40-70% taxation levels cannot even properly fund theirs without resorting to debt auctions..

Originally posted by iamjesusphish


Now first off I am a recovering addict and without medicaid I would have died when I overdosed in 2004. Without Medicaid I would have been pushed off to a hospital that could not treat my Pulmonary Edema. My life was saved because of government run health care.

I think most of the people who are against this are the same people who comment that drug addicts should all OD and die. I think they would rather that, its one less person for them to have to take care of with their tax dollars.

Maybe I am wrong, maybe thats just a small portion, but I see those types of responses a lot.

Originally posted by Rockpuck
reply to post by Yummy Freelunch

 

Would the OP be as willingly to support the Health Care bill if an equal percentage of the tax was shared and could never be redeemed in the form of a Tax Return?

Tell me OP, can you spare an additional 10% tax on your Gross Income?

How about you Yummy? That's just to skirt on by.. if we really wanted to fund Social Security, plus medical benefits the tax ceiling would have to be raised to approx. 60%, or a 20% increase, or a 30-40% increase on the poor.


Of course properly funding a program has never been a strong point of the Government... even Europe which has 40-70% taxation levels cannot even properly fund theirs without resorting to debt auctions..

What do you want me to say, sure Id be happy to? I live on barely anything as it is, I guess they'll suck me dry. I'll just plant more vegetables in the spring.
Well, great debate, Im off for a nap, at least that's free

reply to post by Stormdancer777

Heather was a full time college student, and worked full time, she had to drop out to get a better job to pay for her insulin,

She would be covered by your insurance, if you have any?

When she had to drop out of school I sent letters and made countless calls to Obama, Bush and my state reps , no one cared. Even tried to get on Oprah.

I'm sorry to hear that.. They are the last people that would care. Another example of insurance reform would be to make common pre-existing conditions covered. Bush managed to get all mental health issues taken off "pre-existing" conditions. It used to be if you had depression you couldn't get health insurance. !#% ridiculous. (the mental health bill oddly passed as an attachment in the bailout package last November.

Originally posted by redhatty

Originally posted by ohioriver
And I suppose you have 20,000 to pay for your surgeries that you can just whip out anytime.LOL The point I was making is I had private insurance. I paid my premiums. The private insurance companies are out of control with greedy execs finding any excuse to deny claims. What good is private insurance when they refuse to pay for anything? And it is an industry wide problem. I would suggest that Miss Pelosi will not forever be in her office.

A little honesty - you know that personal responsibility concept - is needed here.

"Bad Cramps" is not a disqualifying condition. There is much more to the story that you are not sharing, as is your right, but don't make it sound like the "EVIL" insurance company was out to get you and deny you for "bad cramps."

The average cost for a hysterectomy is $3000-$6000. No more cramps.

Not $20K, that was a big exaggeration.

The average cell phone bill annually is $1200, same for average cable bill, same for phone & internet bundles.

Cancel those services and you could easily save the $$ for your own health care & you'll also find that if you pay the bill yourself, without insurance, the costs are usually even lower.

Hospitals also offer payment plans for your bill if necessary.

So please, don't harp on bad cramps got you disqualified, that's simply BS, whatever it was, probably falls under that personal responsibility concept, and that means, to fix the problem, you have to be personally responsible.

Yes there is more to the story. My good god in heaven, how could anyone poor that is getting paid minimum wage afford $1200 for a cell plan. It is clear from your post that you are not among the poor, so I don't think you have the capacity to really understand what it means. The before mentioned denial of coverage was due to severe cramps in medical records from age 14. They used that as an excuse to deny coverage and claim it is was pre-existing. I guess you consider cancer peoples own fault. Caution:Sarcasm. They should have known better. It's their own fault.LOL
Do you use the post office? Have you ever received mail? Have you ever called the police for help? The fire department? Did you go to school as a child? All these things are paid for by taxes and they benefit society as a whole. Why are you not screaming about that cause some poor person might need help from the police? Should we ban poor people from school as well? And PLease don't give me the same tired answer of "They should have been more responsible".

reply to post by ohioriver

My good god in heaven, how could anyone poor that is getting paid minimum wage afford $1200 for a cell plan. It is clear from your post that you are not among the poor

Through college, making $8 an hour supporting my self and my g.f in a crappy apartment I managed to live off raman noodles, mcdonalds, bud light (a ... lot of bud light) and pizza. I also managed to have digital cable, high speed internet and both my g.f and I had cell phones. And cars. I was poor. I think I probably paid more in over draft fees than I did on my cell phone.. I don't know many people without cable, high speed internet or a cell phone. Regardless if they are poor.

Health Insurance? Who wants to pay for that...

Originally posted by iamjesusphish
Alright I am very fed up with rich people that have great health care being enraged with the notion that they will not pay for another persons health care because it is socialist... I am 23 years old and have been on Medicaid since I was 18 and taking off my parents insurance. This is not because I don't work or pay taxes but simply because I can not afford private insurance.

Now first off I am a recovering addict and without medicaid I would have died when I overdosed in 2004. Without Medicaid I would have been pushed off to a hospital that could not treat my Pulmonary Edema. My life was saved because of government run health care.

I for one believe that every American citizens deserves to be insured. To any of you that think our country will be ruined because of this needs to be human for one second and think about their fellows humans. We are not enemies. We are the same as you except we are not as well off. I work just like you do I pay taxes just like you and I would want the same health insurance for you....



[edit on 15-8-2009 by iamjesusphish]

God bless you brother..

thank you for the thread..

abundance for all..

world peace..

all hidden truths revealed..

much love to you

namaste'

reply to post by ohioriver

Do you use the post office? Have you ever received mail?

An Intra State postal system had existed prior to the Pony Express..... it wasn't good for anyone. Quite different than health care.

Have you ever called the police for help?

Municipality.

The fire department?

Municipality.

Did you go to school as a child?

Catholic school actually.... but, for sake of argument...

Municipality.

All these things are paid for by taxes and they benefit society as a whole.

Based on Municipal taxes of various Localities. This is to say, folks in Main don't fund the public education of Washington to California. In fact, most funds come from property taxes. People with higher incomes have better public schools.


Well that makes your moot point immaterial doesn't it?

Originally posted by ohioriver
Yes there is more to the story. My good god in heaven, how could anyone poor that is getting paid minimum wage afford $1200 for a cell plan. It is clear from your post that you are not among the poor, so I don't think you have the capacity to really understand what it means.

yep, $100 a month is the average, though there are $50 a month "pay as you go" plans out there.

Amazing though, most of the folks I see who get food stamps & medicaid, all have the newest cell phones with the big carriers, so they must be closer to that $100 a month price point.

Doesn't qualifying for food stamps and medicaid also equal being poor??

I regularly see people who get every form of public assistance out there, who live in homes with holes in the FLOOR, yet they have high fashion clothes, expensive cell phones & drive brand new cars.

Amazing how bad the "poor" in this country are doing.

The before mentioned denial of coverage was due to severe cramps in medical records from age 14. They used that as an excuse to deny coverage and claim it is was pre-existing. I guess you consider cancer peoples own fault. Caution:Sarcasm. They should have known better. It's their own fault.LOL

Sounds like you should have studied up on your rights as a patient. You should have appealed the decision. There is no reason that cramps from a girl in the early years of puberty should ever have been used to deny coverage. Esp after the 2 yr coverage point.

That's one situation where I would have actually recommended getting some legal advise to fight for your coverage. You would have won.

Do you use the post office? Have you ever received mail? Have you ever called the police for help? The fire department? Did you go to school as a child? All these things are paid for by taxes and they benefit society as a whole. Why are you not screaming about that cause some poor person might need help from the police? Should we ban poor people from school as well? And PLease don't give me the same tired answer of "They should have been more responsible".

Do you even realize what a strawman argument those things are? You are asking about services provided for by state constitutions and municipal codes, and even Federal code (post office, education) that have been around since the beginnings of this country (for the most part) and comparing it to brand new legislation that is up for consideration.

Their funding is already a normal part of our lives, there is nothing changing that. Our parents and ancestors paid for it just as we pay for it, all of us in one way or another.

We are talking about health care Legislation that will completely change (and probably not for the better) a system that is already in place, yet will not actually FIX any of the real problems in the system. (Tort Reform, Big Pharma, Waste, Fraud and abuse of the system)

The services you list run well, unless the federal government has been involved (see education and post office for examples).

How many cases of Police fraud, fire dept fraud, educational fraud or post office fraud have you heard of?

Now, how many cases of medicaid fraud have you heard of???

And you really think that .gov run health care is going to be better than what is already out there?

Liars, cheats and thieves are another form of society leeches. How many more of them will we have with "health care for everyone"??

Do YOU really want to pay for them? Those who we already KNOW are going to abuse a system they are already abusing?

Why not just send a portion of your paycheck to St Jude's or your local low cost clinics every week now, since you are so worried about people being able to afford treatment?

At least that way you don't have to pay all the bureaucrats paychecks too.

Originally posted by redhatty

The OP sums up what a society is. When he paid no tax, he got help. Now he pays tax, he helps others. If you don't understand this, then you have no grasp of any human social interaction.

Do married parents buy separate presents for their children? The father earns twice as much as the mother because she works part-time. No, of course not. Their social bond is that they are in this together and are equal carers of their child.

The child is the country. If your company ever goes bust, what happens to your insurance if you can't continue to pay it? Do they extend or pay back your term as you haven't claimed on it?

Of course not. This is where society steps in. The police, paid for by tax, works in the same way. The FBI extend the role of the police, instead it is the states grouping together, much like people in a town, to offer coverage across the whole county.

Do you think that each state should get less federal help because they pay less tax to the Federal government. Should the state lines dictate where the federal government should help most if there were hurricane?

I will gladly pay to help others in school, in security and in health because I want my society to be just that, social.

Should [Britney Spears] have LESS than what she currently has just because I want to have what she has?

You do already have what she has. You are continually the beneficiary of those that pay more tax than you. Regardless of the amount that one can argue the Federal government skims off to corporations and personal gains, she pays more tax, but has the same sidewalk, the same fire department, the same public school, the same police force and the same army, if she so choose. She also has the choice (and probably does) to upgrade on some of those.

If all those that were richer than you didn't pay tax, then all those public things would be affected, but they'd still have the same level of help in the private sector. You, however, would be significantly poorer, as would America.

[edit on 15-8-2009 by Woland]

Do you even realize what a strawman argument those things are? You are asking about services provided for by state constitutions and municipal codes, and even Federal code (post office, education) that have been around since the beginnings of this country (for the most part) and comparing it to brand new legislation that is up for consideration.

Their funding is already a normal part of our lives, there is nothing changing that. Our parents and ancestors paid for it just as we pay for it, all of us in one way or another.

Its funny how you try to point out a fallacy but use one yourself, in appealing to tradition. It doesn't matter how old or young something is - age doesn't validate or invalidate legislation, and tradition certainly doesn't either.

Originally posted by 11b1p

Originally posted by iamjesusphish
reply to post by redhatty

 

You have no idea and prove your ignorance... I got hooked via pharmaceutical prescriptions... I love how your ignorance shines through. You are the problem in this country... did you miss the part that said I am a tax paying citizen?



[edit on 15-8-2009 by iamjesusphish]

so you pay taxes...so how are you on medicaid, either you have a mental problem, or you are on welfare. i am in the medical field, anesthesia to be exact, and tax paying citizens with regular jobs do not qualify for medicaid/medicare. you got hooked on pharms, nice to see my tax dollars at work becitsause you have no self control. im glad that government healthcare was able save you, now how about you pay it forward, and get a better job, and get off government run healthcare, that way you can other people like you used to be.sorry if this post offends you, you have no idea how much medicare/medicaid frustrates us.

LOL. You are so smug up there on your high horse that your head is obviously so far up into the clouds that you have no idea what the employment situation is like in the USA.

You state "how about you pay it forward and get a better job, and get off government run healthcare" as if its EASY to get a job AT ALL let alone a "better one." Did you know that unemployment is at 9.4% (the highest rate in the 21st century so far, and the highest rate in a very long time!) and that the average hours in the working week are DECLINING?

See the report for yourself. Damn, rich people sure do fail at logic.
www.bls.gov...

[edit on 15/8/09 by Yazman]

Originally posted by redhatty
reply to post by iamjesusphish

 

So, YOUR BAD CHOICES have been subsidized by my taxes.

You CHOSE to do drugs, and this caused health problems, but MY TAXES are paying for your rehab and your medical treatment.

Of course you want to keep your free health care going, Me and the rest of the american tax-payers are paying your bills!!!!!

America really has become a nation of leeches, your post is just another example of that.

Put some sympathy, empathy, and understanding in your life and stop being selfish.

You are obligated to take care of people when you can. That is your apart of your ethical responsibility as a human being. You owe that much to society.

A man who does not want to give or share with his neighbor is not fit to live in a civilized society.

Why are people afraid to break bread?

I am 54yrs old and have been paying into the system for over 35 yrs. My business has been going downhill and lost my medical 5 years ago. I take blood pressure meds and now have some other health problems. So when i get a prescription filled i pay 200-300 dollars, i go to dr and pay 100 dollars. I pay more friggen taxes and have no money left over for myself.
Now i need help and and it looks like im not going to get it.
I think more people need to listen to us that can not afford health car.
I can not afford 800-900 a month. I DON'T MAKE THAT MUCH!
Not all of us are freeloaders, i work 60hrs a week.

Just blowing off steam

Originally posted by St Vaast
reply to post by redhatty

 

Sounds as if you need some 'chill' and 'humility' pills. Just handing you some of the advice you're more than willing to dish out for FREE .. as long as it doesn't cost YOU and of YOUR tax dollars.


Gee, hope you're covered for unemployment

Hope you're covered for those life-incidents that leave people flat broke

Hope your insurance doesn't bottom and disappear

Hope your KIDS can afford private health care when they're adult and popping out kids of their own and losing their jobs and losing their shirt in divorce or when they drink and drive and cause a bad accident and have the pants sued off them or if they're caught with drugs on their person and have to pay tens of thousands in legal fees to keep their backsides out of jail.

Try to take this in the way it is meant. Most of the things you describe are behavior choices, would you have the government 100% support us for poor choices in our lives? Take a look at your examples:


I know a friend that has collected unemployment for the same job since Feb 2008, that's 18 month's now and they still can collect till near the end of the year. Personally, I don't think that is how unemployment benefits were meant to work. The kicker is, that person had only worked at the job for about a year and they got fired for doing something very wrong. Go figure.

Kids "popping" out kids---probably bad choice.
Divorce-probably bad choice.
Drinking and driving-definetly bad choice.
Being sued-usually the result of bad choice.
Caught with Drugs-again, bad choice.

If you want the Government to take responsibility for your bad descisons in life, fine. Government should be there to help you when you trip in life, to help you get back up. It shouldn't be there to take care of you when your choices in life continually leave you expecting Government to take care of you while you don't make an effort to get up off the ground.

If you are going to go this route, full healthcare coverage for all; it is going to come down to one of these two options. Those that can, will pay more than they should for their own coverage to pay for those that can't or everyone will have the same coverage which will be less coverage than people who had coverage are used to. Either way, it's going to cost and cost alot, there are no health savings with this debate, don't kid yourself. Medicaid costs have been growing at about a 7% per year clip

Personally, I would like to the Democrats and Republicans, with no lobbyists, locked up in Congress with no air conditioning till they come up with a plan that both sides can support with solid majorities. Doing a massive overhaul of 16% of our economy and rushing it through without both parties supporting it, is a prescription for disaster IMO. I don't claim it will be easy, but this problem, Healthcare, needs to be solved by BOTH PARTIES in a true Bipartisan effort.

WOW! So we've heard from a littany of people who already have government healthcare - so WTF do we need MORE government healthcare for??? Sounds like the existing system is working pretty well for those who are in need. Medicare, Medicaid, S-Chip - those programs would cover the CITIZENS who do not have healthcare because they cannot afford it.

I have an idea... How about spreading my work ethic and good judgement instead of my wealth!!!

Originally posted by kj6754
Put some sympathy, empathy, and understanding in your life and stop being selfish.

You are obligated to take care of people when you can. That is your apart of your ethical responsibility as a human being. You owe that much to society.

A man who does not want to give or share with his neighbor is not fit to live in a civilized society.

Why are people afraid to break bread?

I am NOT obligated to correct another person's BAD CHOICE.

I am not required to coddle the abuser, I am not required to try an understand the pedophile, I am not required to sympathize with the serial killer.

My ETHICAL Responsibility is to be a good person and do no intentional harm to others and to make right the accidental harm I may cause.

IF I CHOOSE to feed the hungry, house the homeless, give the single parent with 2 kids a hand up as she gets out of an abusive relationship, that is MY PERSONAL CHOICE.

It is NOT the place of MY GOVERNMENT to FORCE me to help them.

It is NOT Ethical to enable a drug abuser, or placate the hypochondriac, or fill a child with ritalin because the parent has no parenting skills.

But those are perfect examples of what my government is wanting to FORCE me (and YOU) to do.

Why do so many people think that socialized medicine is a better choice than actually fixing what IS broken in our health care system?

reply to post by redhatty


I'm not going to attack you, I'm just going to say that:

If we can fight wars, why can't we feed OUR OWN people and give them health care?

What's wrong with socialism? When humans realize that they are not the only ones in the universe and the biggest threat is from other planets then maybe only then we can set aside OUR differences.

Didn't Marx say that Communism will be the highest level of human interaction or something? I think he's right.

reply to post by Yazman

Its funny how you try to point out a fallacy but use one yourself, in appealing to tradition. It doesn't matter how old or young something is - age doesn't validate or invalidate legislation, and tradition certainly doesn't either.

That doesn't really make sense given the subject? The Post office formed from necessity, and it was a founding principle that Education be free (however, regulated and funded by States)

.....which it should be noted the Federal interference with education is grossly unconstitutional .. "No Child Left Behind" .. Another example of the Gov "helping" us.. and only hurting those they claimed to help..

Did you know that unemployment is at 9.4%

1. No it's not, it's closer to 22% at the moment.

2. You cannot compare unemployment to past economic periods because the methods of calculating it have changed about 4 times since the Great Depression alone.

I find this comment hilarious, by kj6754

Put some sympathy, empathy, and understanding in your life and stop being selfish.

People like Red and myself simply want to be left alone. You think that's selfish. I think demanding other people to pay for you is selfish. Catch 22.



I hope the Bill passes.. really, I do.. with all the Pork that comes with it. Then, 5 years down the road, I can laugh my freaking ass off at what this country is reduced to, and the horror stories of poor health care..

chasnj

o when i get a prescription filled i pay 200-300 dollars, i go to dr and pay 100 dollars.

......... You don't think the Government will pay for your prescriptions do you? That would cut into the Pharma's bottom line..

you'll get stuck paying more than you do now. 1. You will pay an additional 8% tax on your business because you are not supplying private health care to your employees, then you'll get taxed at the end of the year because you were not paying into the new tax column (that will look like Medicare and Social Security does).

AND you will still pay obscene prices for Pharama drugs.

Of course.. if we had a tiny Federal Government, you would have plenty of extra money to pay for your health care needs. That's irony.

Originally posted by redhatty
reply to post by iamjesusphish

 

Oh no, far from ignorant. I have seen many a people who are addicted to pharma drugs. It is still a CHOICE you made.

Just because a pain killer is prescribed does NOT MEAN you HAVE to take it. There are ways to learn to deal with pain that can reduce the amount of drugs you need to manage it, but again, that too is a CHOICE.

You choose to pollute your body, with whatever substance, legally prescribed or not, rather than choosing to find a healthier alternative.

And you realize that you simply further my point. Once again you reinforce how your bad choices are subsidized by my tax dollars, as I (and other taxed americans) paid not only for the doctor visits, but for your prescriptions too. Our money fed your addiction.

having someone come right out and state that you are an example of the nation of leeches IS SUPPOSED TO BOTHER YOU, but you go ahead, defend your position and rationalize away the FACT that you are an example of an American Leech.

Because as long as it makes YOU feel better, it's all okay, right??

No, I did not miss that you say you are a tax PAYING citizen. So tell me, did you get a refund last year or did you have to write a check and actually PAY taxes with your return??

There is a difference in case you didn't know. Refund means the .gov only BORROWED your money for a while. Having a tax liability higher than the money they take out of your paycheck is being a REAL taxpayer.

[edit on 8/15/09 by redhatty]

You are absolutely correct. Just because you work hard some people feel entitled to your success. Yea we may have good insurance, but guess what we worked our butts off to get it. That is whats wrong with this country, the majority feels like they should get benefit from the people that actually try.

The thing that makes me so mad is I had to basically go into debt with student loans to attend college, and now I am expected to support underachievers, drug addicts, and illegal immigrants.

So next time don't blame the people that actually tried to succeed and blame yourself.