The Death of the City, The 2nd American Revolution

Originally posted by mopusvindictus
reply to post by jkrog08

 

I actually do believe that technology and capitalism are compatible...

I just think the picture of it is so vastly different than what science fiction usually shows us that most of us can't even recognize it for what it is and isn't.

The City, the images from star wars and other fims of vast city covered planets might be an eventually future a thousand years down the road...

But for now population growth and city living are just utterly incompatible, the technology will have to advance along with are human nature as well...

Most of us are still way to rooted to our animal needs to even coexist well in the environment and be happy and not stressed out.

I see,

the return of the small 1 acre perhaps family farm, different a pool sized area growing various sea food items, a green house to avoid plant disease, recycling, compost, even chickens for eggs, some fruit trees, solar and wind power on 24/7 feeding the system...

spread out away from the city... blending into the environment

The internet being your work place

Most of your home underground, for energy conservation and to allow the natural environment and farm aspects to exist above you...

In this situation, your using almost 80% of the land above to produce food and energy and serve as a natural environment, yet you would have most of the acre underneath for habitation... and work, modern work communications work, intellectual work... the other 20% is windows and ventilation where you can see outside and enjoy it...


and this is not far off... this is basically very much what people do here, recycle, good bike paths, lots of solar work from home, houses are above ground but blend into the trees....

and there is a small city of 60,000 this way a nice down town plenty to do....

and the forestry service employs allot of people... taking care of the environment...

there is a major wind farm being built in a flat about 20 minutes away right now... many people live off the grid for power, yet have full modern communications, big tv's comp's Internet....everything, every modern convenience...

Economically while Obama leans to Marxism which FAILED

what we should be looking at is genuine socialized capitalism, and sadly as a whole that's not where we are heading

I'd say while Gene Roddenberry was off base on allot He got the economic system right...

your basic needs provided for with every opportunity provided to rise above via capitalism... just not Capitalism by mandate or you die in the street.

One thing that is seldom mentioned in Roddenberry's ideal is personal responsibility. For any system to evolve to a point where finance is not needed. People have to advance themselves.Productivity for effect,not inductive realiance.

Interesting premise, but I disagree. LA? That's not even in the worlds top 20 most populous cities. You think 1 million people in a city can't be sustained? There are four cities in the world with a population of over 10 million people. I guess you can sustain a city over 1.3 million people.

Smaller cities or rural towns do not have a lower disease rate, lower crime, or anything else. It just seems that way because of the sheer # of people that live there.

I've lived across the U.S., from Presque Isle Maine, to Tuscon Arizona, to San Fransicso, to the Floriday Keys. I've lived and visited the biggest cities, and also lived in tiny towns. I've served in many foreign cities, including Seoul Korea, which has a population of over 10 million people. That city was great, I loved visiting Seoul.

And in all the places I've lived and been, I really can't say that the smaller towns, like Presque Isle, MA, Wellsboro, PA among others, were any better. In fact, I couldn't stand some of them. There were just as many ignorant, rude people (probably more honestly), crime, povery, disease, you name it. Just on a smaller scale.

Cities do need to evolve, I agree with that. But large cities are often a hub of culture and activity. I prefer the city to rural life. I've even lived on a farm (my parents owned an apple farm). I don't mind farms, living off the country, etc... I just prefer the city, more.

But they do slowly evolve. In Denver, where I am now, they are rolling out something that Europe has done for ages, which is the bike depots. Rent a bike at point A, ride it to point B, where you turn it in. This is going to be rolling out to all major cities soon, Denver will be the first. Denver also recently received light rail across the city. Transit over time, will improve.

While I understand some frustration with "big city living," you make it sound like they are cesspools of evil and disease and despair. You exaggerate greatly.

But to put it simply: If you don't like the city, don't live there. See how easy that is? There are a ton of small towns, rural farmlands, heck... you can even move into Amish country, if you really want to move back to the roots of our country. No one is forcing you to live in a city.

There are no doubts that there are obstacles to overcome within cities, but to suggest they are "past their prime" and that we should scatter and live in small communities is imo, ludicrous.

reply to post by mopusvindictus


I read the two opening posts and little more and I must say, I agreed with you mostly until one point.

You state that we can night fight this, that we should be like the palm tree and "bend". The internet business is the way of the future?

I'm trained in computer servicing and repair, a degree I paid for, and plenty of certs I paid very much for. How do you suppose I take my business "online"? Do I tell people to send their broken machines via the post? Don't worry about the insane shipping costs, just do it?

What about people who are trained in labor positions? My father works in construction and is currently laid off. Do I tell him to take his business to the web? What about everyone else in labor positions that are losing their jobs and don't have the sufficient training to do something else? These people in their 40s and 50s who are just working to earn their retirement after working their entire lives in hard labor... what do we tall them? Go with the flow? Just bend with it?

I don't buy the crap about the CITY life and all that because life in the country is no better at this point. Regardless of how lucky you might have got. I live in the same conditions as you, only there are around 20,000 people in my neck of the woods. I have my own shop here and I make JUST enough to get by, enough to pay my insurance and car bill, I don't even live on my own. If I had to handle an apartment or house payment, there would be no way in hell I would get by.

This change you speak of isn't happening from natural reasons, it is happening from HUMANE reasons. The only reason the rest of humanity is suffering is directly proportionate to those few in humanity who control it. The powers that be is what we call them here, but really they are just like us, only they call the shots because we let them.



The reason the cities are polluted? Them.
The reason for police state? Them.
The reason the jobs are going? Them.
The reason we have to privacy? Them.
The reason our rights are dissolving? Them.
The only people that are going to laugh their way to the bank and not think twice about everyone else suffering?

THEM.



You tell me that this is the second American Revolution. You may be right. I certainly see revolution brewing, but it isn't going to happen because a bunch of city slickers decide to continue taking it up the you know what and just run away. It is going to happen because of those people that decide to NOT run away, and decide that, hey... maybe this FUTURE you speak of isn't so great after all?





Say what you will but the more I read the OPs the more I see that you are suggesting we all run away and just "deal with it". As great as that may sound in theory, it just isn't going to happen. Not from me... not from a lot of others.


Other than that, good post.

reply to post by mopusvindictus


It is very selfish to think only of oneself and abandon mankind as a whole because you want 'to go with the flow'.

You have given up your search for knowledge; the enemies can be identified. You say the rich should not be eaten, there is a food shortage -- and indeed they should be fed to the poor.

You have neglected to mention that you will not be allowed to live on the land for much longer, are you totally unaware of the UN World Heritage plans and maps to restrict people from living in the country and forcing them into the cities.

Have you no sense what the G-8 and Fed are and what they are doing.

You have a right to escape the burden of helping mankind by fighting against the darkness and certainly to find your joy here on Earth -- you do not have to do spiritual battle, you do not even have to understand it -- there are those of us who fight that fight for you.

Hopefully you will meet a country girl and settle down happily and raise a family and enjoy an idyllic life and watch tv and the 'news' and make peace with yourself and have a happy day.

Interesting way to perceive things. I live in the city and I can understand where you are coming from but I don't see soldiers marching the streets or police with automatic weapons. I can see the possibility of it becoming a threat but it is currently not a reality. I'm also quite happy with my urban life as it stands.

Great thread....S&F.

May I ask the OP where he lives? If no, what state/region are you in? My wife and I are looking for a change and while you probably are reluctant to have more people move near you, it sounds like quite a nice place or area to consider for retirement.

I fully understand your theory op, but i disagree with you. for one, when a small town starts to grow, there is construction, food, services, etc needed to sustain the new found economy, and everything is great for a while. the problem comes when everyone and there brother figures out your new found secret. for example: i moved to hayden idaho in 1999 started a plumbing company, in which at that date there was only 8 plumbing contractors. as it sits presently, there are over 99 plumbing contractors and that is just in one yellow pages directory.

also disagree with you, saying this is a communication era, i fully feel that it is a service era, since most of the people i see getting out of college with a bachelors degree are working at mcdonalds.

now the one thing i do agree with you on, is back 5 to 9 years ago your theory would have been sound, but where are people going to work at in said small town's, when there is already 15 pizza houses, 10 fast food restaurants, and no big industry to keep the economy afloat, such as military bases, ports, and mines.

one last point if there was more empty land for opportunities in the united states you would be dead on with your theory!

I think the OP has some valid points and some accurate evaluations and observations. I certainly can agree on many of them. I think that the factory is going to become distributed and fully automated and fully computerized and this will also alter the need for cities as workers are not needed for manufacturing. This trend has been in effect for 50 years and over that time factory jobs have become more and more scarce.

A first phase was when the factory was moved to cheaper labor markets. Now those people are demanding higher wages and the internet is making inroads into labor markets that will not accept low paying factory jobs but instead are transforming directly to smaller more distributed manufacturing. I will give the Caribbean nations as an example. Call centers and internet hubs go into these tiny nations and they have agriculture and high tech jobs side by side. The same family that has the mom working on a call center has dad out working in the field and the kids working part time making craft items to sell to tourists.

Small nations with good education systems are already doing much of what the OP is describing. Everyone has a garden or there are several in the neighborhood that provide produce for local consumption. The island trades with other nations to get what they do not have locally produced.

Anyone with a computer, digital camera and some talent can produce music or movies no matter where they live and this will make them a living and provide money for trade purposes. Artist and craft persons in very remote locations can sell their craft over the internet and make a living where before they would try street vending to tourist and often sell them for far less money.

On the whole I agree with the OP. I see some outcomes being different but other than that S & F from me.

that was marvellous mopus v! i've been thinking about this for awhile now. seems to me that the safety and money is segregated in cities. there's alot more open spaces than people realize, outside the city. foreign exchange student from japan came here and as we were driving down the freeway he said he had never seen so much vacant land! in japan they have to build new real estate to live on, out of garbage. islands made out of trash. rural usa is still wide open. lots of places for people to live, outside the pollution and other things that clearly the human body was not designed to sustain!

it dawned on me that were i in a position to positively effect people, first thing i'd do is get people out of the metropolis cities. those are first strike areas, poverty stricken without anything even remotely redeemable to soften the blow. at least in a rural area, if you're poverty stricken there are ways to eat better than you ever did in the city, even when you had money.

so yeah, i agree with ya!

Great read, and some good ideas. I am worried about a big move to the "country" I dont know how to find work via the internet, but if I could find a way to make a living, and live near a mountainous region, with forests, and rivers, farmland- all would be great!

I have heard of nimh, but I though it was just a book---the rats of nimh. I really enjoyed the read.

A fascinating video of dr a bartlett.
Just suppose 5% of you said ,yep i am going to leave the hum drum life of the city, and go live in the peaceful mountains, 300,000,000 people 100,000,000 million families thats 5 million families going to the out of the way places,all looking for a spread of a couple of acres, do the figures add up?all the towns and cities of all the states of usa will join up surely? apart from hawaii.



[edit on 12-8-2009 by stmichael]

Originally posted by Asherah
Great thread.

My family and I moved to a rural area too. Life moves slower. There is less police presence. The cost of living is lower. The only problem I see coming is, everyone else is catching on to the same idea and moving to rural areas too.

When I first came to this area, there were less people. The population is growing, and the natives are fighting to keep housing tracks out. It is inevitable,but I really feel sad to see urban sprawl taking over my nearest little city.

May have to go even further off the grid....

well this is going to happen, like any place in some cities/towns they will have foresight and make a unique place to live.

Lets compare 2 places I have lived NYC and PHX Az

Each has it's own issues, phx built as a grid, is incredibly bland, very policed and controlled NY which developed naturally despite all modern rules and issues cameras etc is still a far more free place to livem with lots of open spaces and parks and actually far less violent than Phx is in terms of Murder, Rape and other harsh crime by pop numbers, a large degree went to culture etc... it's nice to live there affordability is really the only major issue

My biggest concern would be that what people will do is all run to the top 10 BEST small towns, and not invest in the THOUSANDS upon THOUSANDS of small towns that exist

Like I said we have hospital and university

i.e. they make 10 towns of 60-100,000 into 10 cities of 1.5 million

and that will happen in some places but there real move here should be spread, the 10 biggest cities in the us could shave 1/2 the population and if people went diverse went to their own paradises and made them, there would never be an issue...

Even a few hundred thousand people is okay, that's a nice place to live land can remain affordable and life decent

beyond that everything get's expensive, polluted crime starts to rise...

there is ridiculous land area... absolutely unbelievable

it's not about making 10 new Major cities to keep pressure off it's about genuinely making more small towns, nice communities... many of them... all over

200 small towns of 100,000 people would barely change the landscape in any major way it would in many states be a blessing and give the people places to go things to do hospitals and schools...

that's 4 towns of around 100,000 per state

AZ could take 10 alone here and... the environment wouldn't be touched, it would make those 200 mile drives between places allot better too... there would be unlimited empty space still

Even NY could say the same without ever touching Adirondack state park (about 1/4 of the state) although i'd say Upper Ny state is already allot like this... So is Pennsylvania (exactly like trend of civil war again actually)

reply to post by Asherah


And O h god yes...

Neighboring is lost in so many place, that killed me in Phx, no block parties, everyone transient, no roots at all...

It is completely different up here where I am now, everyone cares...

You know in relation to the above post of yours...

I am lucky this town has severe population restrictions via landscape and protected forest it will never breach 100-120 price goes up if you move here.

There are methods to check the growth to the comfort zone so people have to spread out and not ruin your town.

reply to post by mopusvindictus


Well done. I'd forgotten Calhoun's rat proof of Malthusian theory.
en.wikipedia.org...

My question is....

Will the exodus from the cities be in time to save us from meltdown?
When the cities explode and destroy the infrastructure communication and otherwise.

Agreed, it is much nicer in country. And it might even be nicer in a country with less pop. density. Habla Espanol?




[edit on 12-8-2009 by whaaa]

reply to post by daddyroo45


Exactly but at the same time the one thing that is present that ALLOWS that is basic needs.

You can develop your humanity without great effort a person can't (on average) as people go become a guru and enter that place while...

They might get thrown out on the street, be unable to feed children, not have the time or opportunity for education or to cloth themselves...

the basics, of human need, removal from an animal like state has to come first so it's a vicious circle... that will and even in his sci fi, didn't come without allot of fighting, allot of death and tragedy first

It was not a one day revolution, he gt that right too it was 50-100 yrs as I recall of painful shifting

man 60,000 sounds friggin huge to me.

we have everything you mentioned, except there's only 7thousand people in a 40mile span.


things are spread out, but the drives are nice.

reply to post by whaaa


I honestly don't think that exodus will save us from a meltdown at this point and time...

I compare this to the civil war because if you look, and read that first link it will mirror that...


NY and Pennsylvania right now... NY state has, maybe 50 small towns between 50,000 and a Few Hundred thousand people, and One major city (that actually is growing despite everything) Pennsylvania is similar, many great small towns hospitals, high speed, work from home Internet people... lots of protected forest... University, Hospital... everything you need plus a really big yard and lots of healthy trees and water to keep it in check (although new housing methods haven't caught on)

Every state has such towns... with full infrastructure, sustainable local economy and environment and basic resources

My State currently has 1 lol

and that's where I live...

Every person in case of bad disease will have hospital; access

Water will never run out

Basic food will be available enough to survive

The power will never go out 100% right now there is a coal plant near by and if flow to that plant stops, a massive wind system is under construction and solar is very common, electricity will never go out

People are educated... Act Locally, think globally, they aren't yokels at all

If you drove up the DIRT Road to my pad and saw my prefab unit from 1975 lol and the others here that border the state park...

You'd at a glance wonder, "where's the meth lab" or "I should have brought my banjo"

But

My neighbor is fluent in mandarin Chinese

and when you walk inside you'd think I was a sub station for Nasa, i'm completely, utterly pimped

and I have 2x the space I had in Phx in an expensive apt in a neighborhood that was wealthiest in the city where... in a bad situation i'd be on lock down not knowing how i'd eat...

Will we avoid a melt down?

NO WAY... NOT POSSIBLE

But...

I will be able to continue classes through the whole thing,

Fema will not be in my town nor the National guard

Food, Water Power will ride the entirety of it

My income will never vanish entirely via the net, I can reach to anywhere via the net and everywhere will never suck at once...

It wont be a tragedy here

What WILL happen... is like the cities exploded after the civil war, on this round those who can get out will have to

except, they will be broke and have to live in tents at first, that is HOW new communities will have to start because many simply don't recognize the trends

and there are 2 roads in and out here...

so no people will not flood us, 4 cop cars on each road can prevent it....

The tent cities are springing up around the Usa for the last 8 months...

If you don't want the Army when brought home, Fema and the Police locking you down, I suggest you get out of a major city now, unless you actually have Money...

Don't worry about career or plans... the cities are going to go through a forced exodus...

It wont be like the civil war in terms of 2 sides fighting

But there will surely be unrest, riots major problems until it peters out

your job if not important wont be there or you will be unable at times to get to it...

Imagine LA without OIL for 30 days

Cities like NY and LA actually being sea ports will fare better...

Internal cities like Chicago, might do really bad... hard to say there are allot of elements to such a thing...

But a place where there is food and water and local tasks that need doing plus a hospital and high speed connect to gather income from other states, from overseas etc...

These places, yeah you'll be poor perhaps...so what?

But avoid a massive shift here...

Impossible...

Like the civil war 2 states were industrialized 90% of the income...

Maybe 10% of America right now can handle what will happen and Grow and do better as a result

And I half expect, my income can rise if i'm a bit ambitious through this whole thing... the places that are functional that people turn to will see an influx of money too...

During the civil war?

What happened in NYC and Pennsylvania?

was there major fighting aside from immigration issues? Did food become scare or did jobs shoot through the roof, Pig iron production 100% growth, wool 100% Growth, all sorts of business like supplying shoes to soldiers etc...

IN these places i describe...

There will be work... there will be money, information services, real estate, new housing, environmental... communication Era growth

Hard to say exactly what... you have to be smart, what will people fleeing power hungry, expensive cities occupied and under martial law maybe... need to get set up elsewhere? What will the economy be...

If the powers on and your stuck inside what would you need to order from online?

Questions I ask myself now...

But again

Could we Avoid the Collapse... NO

The cities are unsustainable, the economy of them is shrinking, the population density is too high and the govt doesn't want you there either, in a limited war a nuke can screw us bad... to much money too many dead screwed workers... lost, they Want this just like they wanted the civil war...

We are vulnerable this way... it's easy to spread a germ, you can kill the stock market with a bomb...(or could before 9-11)

Be it natural... or we make it happen ourselves i.e 9-11 or an outside enemy really kicks it into high gear or... the simple unsustainable life of the common man forces it...

it's the way it's going to go, we can argue about 9-11 terrorism or intent of gov all day

It wont change that, cities are over policed, businesses are failing, they ARE targets form whomever... Crime is dangerous disease spreads easy and they are going to go through allot of changes before they are viable for the average Joe to have the American dream and that will take population shrinkage, restructuring and time...

reply to post by Alaskan Man


Alaska, Alaska is the promised land... 1/3 the size of the continental USA...

While people CRY they can't find jobs and sleep in tents outside LA

Alaska still gives away homestead land occasionally

That there is ultimate justification for this whole thread...

People have children in shelters for hope of some "dream" that will never come... not now...

and you can probably get 50 acres in the boonies for 10 G in places in Alaska and throw a satellite I net system in...

reply to post by stmichael


There are 3,000 counties in the USA

at 1,000 people added per county that's a 3 Million person exodus handled with hardly an impact

Not to mention, Almost limitless land undeveloped entirely

reply to post by gwydionblack


NO

It's happening because of you, you want to sit there and blame them

Your a computer repair guy in a town of 20,000

Your as a business person goes, and I don't mean to offend... but your ridiculous

How many computers need to be fixed there? What's your market in a down economy who is buying machines from you etc, etc...

Your dad in construction has a shot, when the exodus picks up pace... he will have work again..

maybe you too, but... your in a very limited market

THEM, THEM

Blame away, they might accelerate things or screw them up or have nasty plans to deal with shtf scenario's

But what are you thinking?

You want to live and make money the old way, you want to work on something with your hands... you have a completely controlled growth potential...there was only so good you could ever do...

That's not their fault... your just mad you made a sort of lame duck choice and want to Not change.

How can you make money on the net?

Sell your knowledge around the world that's how...

I have a guy right now who's an electrician, sells DVD's on how to do the work...

rode him right up and over a 6 month layoff from the Union Hall

Use your head and look at what's happening... it's your attitude that's going to make this all a mess...

"I DO THIS AND.... I wont do nuthin else cus they screwed it up"

well sucks to be you then bro....

I mean if there's no fish in the lake you better get a bow and hunt pheasant, it's guys with your attitude that are going to act like idiots and scream and yell and MAKE the storm troopers come...

And scream about THEM and rile everyone up... when your in cuffs

And WHY... they aren't out to get you, they just know some of you are unprepared and going to

Blame

Fear Change

Be psychologically unwilling to adapt

"I DON'T WANT TO WORK ON THE NET"

I'm sorry but THEY are only the messenger... things have changed

After the civil war some people went to the cities got Jobs and bought homes...

and those people didn't WANT that life but they dealt with the reality of the world...

YOU live in a city of 20,000 and people now have less money to spend on comp AND it's a field people are learning and able to do themselves and you NEVER were not income capped in the first place...

Your not Smart about money, i'm sorry

You can look at the real which was at 20,000 people if the economy was Good and no one was competition you could have maybe done okay... and you were doomed at first sign of recession in all reality

OR

You can start using a noggin that has to be bright to some degree to fix a computer and stop blaming THEM

But if your just wanting to be angry about a bit of lack of insight and planning on YOUR PART... and you want to join the FIGHT

Feel free to be a statistic when it's done.