SCI: Time Travel 101: A How To Guide

Originally posted by gimme_some_truth
Originally posted by spy66

[

Correct, here on earth time would not change. The only one experiencing any type of "time change" would be the one who left at the speed of light...
[edit on 27.06.08 by spy66]

I am not sure if i fallow.

What kind of time change would he who left with the speed of light experience?

He probably couldn't see day turn to night. But if he knew that he left during the day. Lets say 14:00 on the 10.09.09 He would know that at 22:00 on the 10.09.09 It would be night where he left from.
He would probably have to keep track of time to know what time of day we have and to know what day he is on. Because he cant use day and night like we cant to keep track of time and day.

The traveler would probably be lost in time if he didn't keep a track of time.
That would probably be the only difference.

I guess you think that if some one travels at the speed of light changes in energy and matter will change differently. Like the traveler wont age at the same speed as we here on earth would?

But that would depend on what environment he has inside his vehicle traveling at the speed of light.



[edit on 27.06.08 by spy66]

reply to post by spy66


What happens, according the the theory is that the faster an object moves. the more time stretches for that person.

Because the people on earth are not accelerating to the speed of light their time does not alter in any way (generally speaking)

you see, Einsteins theory suggests that no two people share the same time line. For the sake of making it less complicated though, Let us just say there are two time lines... the earth time line and the space craft time line.


Take a look at this ruler

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/bfb9ddd2702a.jpg[/atsimg]

Let's say that this ruler represents time. Each inch mark represents a year. So that is a total of ten years we are looking at with this ruler.

OK so now, here we are getting in this new space craft capable of going the speed of light.

We leave understanding that we will be gone for 10 earth years.

now here we are going the speed of light. Because we are going this speed, time has slowed down for us, while the earth is experiencing no time change what so ever. Time is still going by at the rate of one second per second.

Time for us though has just slowed down to... lets say half a second per earth second. So for every earth second we have only experienced half a second for ourselves.

Now 10 earth years have passed by( The 10 inch mark on the ruler). The space ship comes back, but because time has slowed for that ship to half a second per earth second, only 5 years have gone by for the person who was traveling at the speed of sound.

While earth time has brought itself to the 10 inch mark, your slowed time has only brought you to the 5 inch mark.

10 years DID go by, but only for the people of earth. For you it was only 5.

reply to post by spy66


Dear spy66

Sorry you seam to be missing the point of the theory all together.

As simply as I can if you leave earth at over the speed of light and return just as fast you can arrive before you left and stand there watching your self take off.

Now don’t argue with me that is what Einstein said.

Originally posted by MAC269

Now don’t argue with me that is what Einstein said.

Wait a minute now, let's be nice to each other. Nobody here is arguing, spy66 is just trying to understand what IS a complex. There is nothing wrong with that.

I have said before in this very thread that I encourage this discussion and these questions.

While I do believe that Einsteins THEORY of special relativity will one day ultimately be proven as scientific fact, at this point it is still just a theory so it more than acceptable for there to be doubters ( Not saying that spy66 is..)

It is a theory, meaning it is actually yet to be proved so there still is room for argument, so long as it is civil and intelligent and does not violate the TAC.

Spy, you are certainly more than welcome to question away, I am more than happy to attempt my best to explain in simple terms what the theory of special relativity suggests.

Originally posted by MAC269
reply to post by spy66

 

Dear spy66

Sorry you seam to be missing the point of the theory all together.

As simply as I can if you leave earth at over the speed of light and return just as fast you can arrive before you left and stand there watching your self take off.

Now don’t argue with me that is what Einstein said.

Heheh..... well if he said so then i cant argue

But i dont agree.

Originally posted by spy66

Heheh..... well if he said so then i cant argue

Sure you can, It is only a theory, not scientific fact. Then again it will be that way for a long time.. maybe forever, because it is not possible to test out.. at least not at this point in time... ( No pun intended)

I do agree with what Einstein said, but you have ever right to disagree considering it is just a theory.

[edit on 11-8-2009 by gimme_some_truth]

reply to post by gimme_some_truth


Hi Again, my first question was a bit overlooked but that's okay, everyone's very busy in this thread!
I was wondering over night, gimme_some_truth, in terms of the theoretical situation where someone was travelling in a ship away from earth, at incredibly fast speeds(like you mentioned) for two years, while on Earth, 27 years pass, but in space, due to the fact the man in the ship was travelling close to the speed of light, only 2 years passed.

What would happen if there was some sort of 'live stream' video active from the ship to Earth at the start of the journey, through the two years?

How could the people on Earth, for 27 years, be watching a video of a man in space, who is only there for 2 years?

I mean, would the image of the man in the ship be in extreme slow motion?

It really fascinates me!

I'd love to hear your answer, thanks Gimme_some_danger, this is an extremely active and interesting thread!

reply to post by gimme_some_truth


Anything's possible gst!

Who knows, it may be the explaination for UFOs and ET's.

It's also a slightly arrogant view though, when you think about it...
Humanity is the seed or the origin for all the humanoid species in the universe?

If present humans, travelled millions of years into the past, causing an alternate dimension to exist by doing so, these UFOs and ETs *could* be the evolved (manipulated) decendants of the original travellers.

Perhaps they went to escape a cataclysm yet to happen in some future time. They (we) would certainly look alien after millions of years!

Why would we be seeing them in the numbers we do in modern times though?

Perhaps it is because we are nearing the time when the original travellers left their time to go back...and the possibility of a massive temporal paradox is getting lower, and so they can afford to interact more...2012? 2030 asteroid?

Perhaps the Lunar and and Martian structures and anomalies are the base of operations for these evolved travellers who are both classed as yet to leave (soon), and left millions of years ago.

Who knows eh, but interesting nonetheless.

reply to post by ThinAir


It wouldn't work, interesting idea though.

Radio waves travel at the speed of light, so the time taken for the signal to reach Earth would be proportional to how fast and how far away the ship is.

If the ship is 20 LY away, the signal would take 20 years to reach back here to Earth.

If he turned right around and came back to Earth, at the speed of light, it would take him 20 years to get back home (from our point of view) so he would arrive at the same time as his transmission does.

Edit to add:
After thinking about this some more...maybe this could work actually.

If using quantum entanglement communication, then the video link would be instantaneous, regardless of distances involved.

Just have to perfect quantum communications first...


[edit on 11/8/2009 by spikey]

may I suggest when you freeze a body , you remove energy nature from it , and it slows down in time.

when you go 99.999% of the speed of light the relation ship between its energy nature and mass nature is much the same as the cold... with much the same result...

the reverse being true... slow down the energy to mass nature... and time slows .. the awareness of a tree being an exsample

we are really talking about the perception of times passage and not actual changing of your relationship to the universal tuesday that is infinitely all over the universe .

my meaning... ; where in the universe is it not tuesday... when it is tuesday here... ? ( please point at that place )

awareness of a time , is not the same as time .

may I suggest the recording of music is a form of time travel .
========================================
playing a movie backwards is equaly a kind of time travel .

playing a movie back wards shows the nature of the physic's needed to reversal time .

that is to say , the order of the universe .
all order must be reversed , all laws , all of the cosmos , must reverse ... and you must hold your order against this mighty cosmic thunder .
========================================

how ever hopeless this may seem... I can think of no less than 4 exsamples of this

1) remove a energy or mass totaly from exsistance , with out a future... it has no past , and you change the past .

2) create a energy or a mass totaly into exsistance , with a future ... it must have a past... and you change the past .

3) create a mobius where you have two moments connected by information , then fill in between with matter and energy to expand its size ... with in the mobius you may freely move backwards and forwards in time as long as the original points in time are connected.

4) create a mubius where you have two locations connected by information , then fill in with matter and energy to expand is size ....

the simple truth is... we have artifacts of time travel all around us .

the ghosts , the pacific ocean , ufo's , storys of gods , fortune tellers and storys of magical beings .

demensions are three we see

1 eternity , time , change/energy ... electron
2 infinite space , space , location / matter.... proton
3 god/ order , nam kyo/ reality/ interface , awareness

we have two that are not seen

4 ele , [ magntic ( ele/mass )] [ radiation ( ele/ energy)] , strong nuclear force
5 psi , [ remote veiwing ( psi/location ) ] [ dozing ( psi/change ]

we have artifacts of the other demnsions ... universes not in this interface and not outside either ...
black energy , black matter ... dark energy , dark matter ...

the big bang is pure energy with out matter... therefore not in this interface...

the last black hole is where time stops... one singularity with out change.... winks out of this interface .....


the simple fact is... human awareness is uniquely designed to travel in time...

the artifacts are all around us ... we must simply open our eyes...

the next evolutionary step is doing just that ... and watching over us ... if you care to look , and not close your mind to it

It is interesting that the originator of this thread that had these thoughts is not alone. It briings back old memories.

If a Time Machine can be built that works, the solution is a simple one: Simply decide where you are going to find the instructions on how to build one, and go and get the instructions. When you are finished building the Time Machine, then set it for the time before you went to get the instructions and then put the instructions where you planned to find them.

Originally posted by gimme_some_truth
Originally posted by angrysniper

The last quote you provided should be all that needs to be said about the alcubierre drive.

This quote?

Some have pointed out that an object could in theory move at greater than the speed of light, so long as it did not accelerate to reach that speed. So far no physical entities have ever displayed that property, however.

That quote states that there is nothing out there that we have found capable of doing such a thing as you seem to be suggesting... So...that quote sums up what all that you want said about the alcubierre drive? Fair enough to me.

I mean, I understand what you are getting at, but within the confines of the special theory of relativity it simply is not possible...

Although this article is just about special theory of relativity I will concede that just because it is such a good theory does not make it true. I mean until Einstein entered the scene A lot of newton's stuff was considered to be the correct way of thinking. But Einstein came along with this theory and proved a lot of newtons theories completely wrong. One day the same may happen to Einstein as well.

[edit on 10-8-2009 by gimme_some_truth]

Yes, the last quote.

Originally posted by gimme_some_truth

As for your idea...

Some have pointed out that an object could in theory move at greater than the speed of light, so long as it did not accelerate to reach that speed. So far no physical entities have ever displayed that property, however.

physics.about.com...

Thank you for your concern but I do know what I am talking about on this one.

[edit on 10-8-2009 by gimme_some_truth]

The last quote you provided should be all that needs to be said about the alcubierre drive. The object in question (the ship) is not moving, it is the space around it that is being altered relative to the space that would need to be 'traveled' in order to wind up at a destination. No information (matter) is traveling faster than light or even close to it. From our perspective, of course, an object within this warped space would appear to be traveling faster than light without violating the light barrier. It is true that this has never been observed as a natural phenomenon, but what we are talking about here is an artificial phenomenon, so that is not relevant. Now, considering that altering the fabric of space in order to "travel" faster than light also involves altering relative time (because they are one in the same, as you know), I'd say that FTL capability is intrinsic to time travel, and vice versa

[edit on 11-8-2009 by angrysniper]

And yes, it certainly IS possible within the theory of special relativity. Simply saying it isn't possible doesn't make it so. The theory of special relativity states that as an object increases velocity so does its mass, but the object in question is not increasing velocity. It is stationary in relation to the space around it. Light within that space still travels faster than the object in question. The space around it is what is moving, not the mass of the ship. The end result is faster than light travel, but it does not involve accelerating mass in the conventional sense.

[edit on 11-8-2009 by angrysniper]

[edit on 11-8-2009 by angrysniper]

may I suggest ... if the time traveler of the future come into this time... they are information beings... they use hybred humans to act in this here and now on off world mission .

if they started here... they had dam well leave this time line alone ... to save their own skins... but if they bleach the universe of every living thing... fight the battles of the 100, ooo,ooo years from now.... use smart bombs against spears and arrows on the other side of the galaxy or universe ... against enemys that are not yet even 1 step civ's....

they need armys , soldiers..... hybred humans


would it be so strange if the ufo's were little more than mile posts... time sign posts of early time travel attempts

I rarely post comments, but this time the confusion created here by many pseudo-scientific claims has reached to me and I decided to post.
I too was always fascinated by time travel possibilities, but it seems to me that the present state of "public" science (that is the one not locked up in secret projects) gives us a strange paradox (noted by Stephen Hawking): time travel both forward and back in time is very well theoretically possible and practically feasible in some not very distant future but still we don't observe any visitors from the future in our timeline.
( For a brief introduction to the science of time travel see this article on Wikipedia and this excellent article. )
This paradox can have one of the following explanations (list not exhaustive):

1. Time travel (TT) is theoretically impossible, and our present ideas about space-time are fundamentally wrong.

2. TT is possible but unfeasible due to some factors poorly understood in present day science (for example, a positive feedback loop of virtual particles destroying any time machine the moment it is started, as explained ]here).

3. TT is possible only back to the moment of construction of the first time machine, and it has not been constructed yet. Note that some natural objects like cosmic strings can be used as time machines, and they may be existing somewhere in the universe though none have been positively identified yet.)

4. The civilization(s) capable of developing time travel technology do not survive long enough to do so, and destroy themselves possibly in the process of time machine construction.

5. There is a "chronology protection agency (agencies)" which is successfully preventing time travelers from revealing themselves to the people of the past and leaving any positively identifiable traces of time travel. Note that if the many-worlds hypothesis is true that this agency must be existing and 100% successful in all timelines which is rather odd.

I have only surveyed here the back-in-time travel because forward-in-time travel is of course possible and inevitable for every object in the universe since none of them move at constant speed and without a surrounding gravitational field. We all travel forward in time by just walking.

Also, there may have been time travelers in our timeline, but I haven't seen any scientifically sound confirmations. For example, the Titor story stops to be scientific when he shows the "bending light" picture, because every student will tell you that enormous tidal forces occurring in such strongly curved spacetime would tear apart his "machine" and his body before he could even take that picture.

Would be interesting to hear your thoughts about this.

***last post***

picture in the minds eye :

a tank of fluid ... clear oil , as clear as water , and clear water , equaly clear as the oil .

between these two fluids is a silvery surface... an interface

at the interface... it is not 8pounds to the gallon or 6 pounds to the gallon...
the interface shares all the propertys in common , but is separated by that which the two fluids do not share .

sound travels thru both, so it travels along the interface...

ele or psi are like bubbles of air or bits of stone ... caught in the oil / water interface .

exsamples of this are salad dressing... shake the dressing... and you have all the propertys of our reality .

as far as going fast ... your body occupies a location in space , your mind lives in time.... awareness is the soul caught between these two...

time and space are the measuring sticks... miles and inchs , hours and seconds.... it is awareness that is being play'd like a song at near speed of light... awareness that feels summer sun or winter chill... and speed is reaching at where the mind lives in change .

in fact... awareness does not see change nature , or location nature at all... no more than the eye sees radio waves.... awareness only sees god nature things... not nessasarily awareness... but things of its own kind...

frequancy is not the same as awareness... no more than the color green is the sound of middle "C" played on a piano...

but things of a common , know each other... its all about effect and being effected... change and location... eternitys relationship with infinity.... the change of energy of the big bang ... in to the matter of the last singularity...

going near the speed of light is not a big deal... what do you think the blue shifted and ultra red shift objects in the night sky are... fairys and pixy dust...

what the spooks of the MIB are not telling you... 1) alians are not from some place else... they are from some time else . 2) there is nothing off world , not because its hard to grow life... but because people in the future went back into the past , and snuft it out ... and they are useing us to do it ... can you say abduction ... and they are misdirection specialist... they can't let on that they know these guys are not us... but they may very well be related...

by the way.. pacific ocean is a tempral sheild genarator that fails . the ring of fire... is an artifact... like the atlantic , and indian ocean... celtics , japanese , india .... all pretty smart people...

its all part of a science fiction story ... just intresting stuff

1. Time travel (TT) is theoretically impossible, and our present ideas about space-time are fundamentally wrong.


bad news... you can move your mind into the future and predict event ... that can be seen as traveling in time.
its called planning .

I do agree... we need better physic's... but I think its safe to say time travel is posible


2. TT is possible but unfeasible due to some factors poorly understood in present day science (for example, a positive feedback loop of virtual particles destroying any time machine the moment it is started, as explained ]here).

for human beings , I can agree ... it is not feasible for us.
but that is not to say it can't be done by others of this planet

3. TT is possible only back to the moment of construction of the first time machine, and it has not been constructed yet. Note that some natural objects like cosmic strings can be used as time machines, and they may be existing somewhere in the universe though none have been positively identified yet.)

big error in thinking... who ever said they were useing a machine.
what communication system in the world uses smoke signals , flags and pony express... why is it a machine we are looking for.

4. The civilization(s) capable of developing time travel technology do not survive long enough to do so, and destroy themselves possibly in the process of time machine construction.
...or... the first time traveler sociaty ruthlessly wipes out every other civilasation befor they get the technology...
protecting their home world , like babys in a sand box .. surrounded by pit bulls , special forces , and atomic bombs... wiping the universal cosmos clean of all that may ever touch us

5. There is a "chronology protection agency (agencies)" which is successfully preventing time travelers from revealing themselves to the people of the past and leaving any positively identifiable traces of time travel. Note that if the many-worlds hypothesis is true that this agency must be existing and 100% successful in all timelines which is rather odd.


three points
1) why do they care what happens off world... their own time line is the only one that matters
2) they are doing a great job here ... roswel , ufo's , H.G.Wells , and right here
3) its not like they have to get it right everytime... they just have to get it right once after meny trys .

by the way titer is not a time traveler... he is a dimentional slipper... there is a very very big diffrence .
the effect may seem the same.. but in fact it is quite diffrent.

like compareing a recording a song and playing it back 1000 years from now.... to having an echo plex , that repeats for a week... both move the song thru time ( or back wards in time ) ... but they are quite diffrent

Originally posted by ThinAir
reply to post by gimme_some_truth

 

Hi Again, my first question was a bit overlooked but that's okay, everyone's very busy in this thread!
I was wondering over night, gimme_some_truth, in terms of the theoretical situation where someone was travelling in a ship away from earth, at incredibly fast speeds(like you mentioned) for two years, while on Earth, 27 years pass, but in space, due to the fact the man in the ship was travelling close to the speed of light, only 2 years passed.

What would happen if there was some sort of 'live stream' video active from the ship to Earth at the start of the journey, through the two years?

How could the people on Earth, for 27 years, be watching a video of a man in space, who is only there for 2 years?

I mean, would the image of the man in the ship be in extreme slow motion?

It really fascinates me!

I'd love to hear your answer, thanks Gimme_some_danger, this is an extremely active and interesting thread!

Very good question Thin Air and I was just waiting for gimme_some_truth to answer it but looks like he's called it a night ... so you're stuck with my answer.

A video transmission (or any other kind of electromagnetic signal) could certainly be transmitted between the ship and Earth. At low velocities, say less than half light speed, communication could take place relatively normally.
But once the ship begins to gain a sizeable velocity compared to light e.g. 0.8c, then we start to get problems. Even though the signal from Earth would still be capable of reaching the ship even at that huge velocity, the wavelength of the approaching signal would begin to lengthen and the signal would start to red-shift and lose energy. The situation would get progressively worse the faster the ship went with the approaching signal being red-shifted further and further until the signal was so weak as to be lost in the background noise.
The same would apply to any signal from the ship to Earth ... eventually finding itself red-shifted and blending in with the background noise.

In fact, for anyone on the ship looking straight ahead, they would find that the stars ahead of them would begin to blue shift and the faster the ship went, the greater the amount of blue-shift. This effect is caused by the frequency of the light being compressed and raising it's overall energy.
If they looked behind them, they would see the stars begin to red-shift and start to dim, and if they went fast enough, the light approaching the ship from behind would be so extremely red-shifted (the frequency so incredibly stretched out) that the stars would eventually disappear completely and they'd see nothing but darkness behind them.



[edit on 11-8-2009 by tauristercus]

Originally posted by addvantage666
It is interesting that the originator of this thread that had these thoughts is not alone. It briings back old memories.

If a Time Machine can be built that works, the solution is a simple one: Simply decide where you are going to find the instructions on how to build one, and go and get the instructions. When you are finished building the Time Machine, then set it for the time before you went to get the instructions and then put the instructions where you planned to find them.

And the consequence of this is that you're stuck forever in a temporal loop.
Why? because there's no way for you to determine which event came first ... placing the info somewhere for it to be found OR building the TM from the info you found ...about as circular as it gets !
The other problem with your "solution" is that this "... find/build/put/find/build/put ..." scenario has no obvious beginning point and therefore must have been repeating itself since time began and therfore will be forced to also repeat until the end of time.

Originally posted by gimme_some_truth
reply to post by spy66

 

What happens, according the the theory is that the faster an object moves. the more time stretches for that person.

Because the people on earth are not accelerating to the speed of light their time does not alter in any way (generally speaking)

you see, Einsteins theory suggests that no two people share the same time line. For the sake of making it less complicated though, Let us just say there are two time lines... the earth time line and the space craft time line.


Take a look at this ruler

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/bfb9ddd2702a.jpg[/atsimg]

Let's say that this ruler represents time. Each inch mark represents a year. So that is a total of ten years we are looking at with this ruler.

OK so now, here we are getting in this new space craft capable of going the speed of light.

We leave understanding that we will be gone for 10 earth years.

now here we are going the speed of light. Because we are going this speed, time has slowed down for us, while the earth is experiencing no time change what so ever. Time is still going by at the rate of one second per second.

Time for us though has just slowed down to... lets say half a second per earth second. So for every earth second we have only experienced half a second for ourselves.

Now 10 earth years have passed by( The 10 inch mark on the ruler). The space ship comes back, but because time has slowed for that ship to half a second per earth second, only 5 years have gone by for the person who was traveling at the speed of sound.

While earth time has brought itself to the 10 inch mark, your slowed time has only brought you to the 5 inch mark.

10 years DID go by, but only for the people of earth. For you it was only 5.

Lets do some math.

You and I are going to do some traveling.

You are going to travel at 300 000 km a second.

I am going to travel at 150 000 km a second.

Earth is going to do what earth does best.

We are both going to start at the same spot. And at the same time 0.

So our starting point is 0. On the same day.

After 1 second you will be 300 000 km away from earth. Because you travel at 300 000 km a second. I will be 150 000 km a way from earth because i travel at 150 000 km a second. From you i will be a 150 000 km.

When we stop after 1 second and compare time and date. Your watch will show 1 second. My watch will chow 1 second.

Hey but that's not true. If i call you my message would take 0.5 seconds just to reach you. So when you get my message your watch will show 1.5 seconds. But hey!! so will mine. When you get my message my watch will show 1.5 seconds too. And when you reply back i will get your message 0.5 seconds later. And my watch will show 2 seconds, but so will your watch when i get your message.

Then you call earth and ask them what time and date they have. And they say we have 3 seconds and the same date. But when you get the reply from earth your watch will show 4 seconds. The reply would also takes 1 second to return to you.

But if i listen in on the reply from earth my watch will show 3.5 seconds. because it will reach me before you. But when i hear the message at 3.5 seconds, the time will be the same on your watch. Its just that you haven't heard the message yet. When you get the message 0.5 seconds later. Your time will be 4 seconds. But so will mine and so will the time on earth.

Ok lets move on.

We travel for another 4 seconds. And stop and compare time and date.
This time when we stop the watch shows 8 seconds. It will be 8 seconds for you and 8 seconds for me and for earth.

But when we start communicating that's when things start to change even more. But time hasn't changed for any of us. But the distance between us have. So its going to take even longer to communicate. Because the message has to travel the distance as well.

reply to post by gimme_some_truth


AWESOME thread.. thanks for the read.


But I have always wondered....

Originally posted by gimme_some_truth


But just how fast can one move? Science shows that we cannot move at the speed of light (186,000 miles per second). We cannot because the faster an object moves, the more massive it becomes and the more massive it becomes the more energy is required for it to build speed. Simply put, collecting enough energy to go the speed of light is just out of the question.

Two questions:

1. How come "light" itself can get around this "mass" issue?

2. And how exactly is light propelled?

Thanks again for this thread it rocks!