SCI: Time Travel 101: A How To Guide

reply to post by angrysniper

I wasn't implying the alcubierre drive could be used for time travel, but that the methods for implementing the drive (manipulating spacetime itself) could possibly be helpful in achieving time travel.

Gotcha ... sorry for the misunderstanding !

And yes, conceivably any potential technology that could manipulate the very fabric of space might also conceivably be able to manipulate time as well.
But thats definitely stuff for future scientisits/technicians

Originally posted by angrysniper

The last quote you provided should be all that needs to be said about the alcubierre drive.

This quote?

Some have pointed out that an object could in theory move at greater than the speed of light, so long as it did not accelerate to reach that speed. So far no physical entities have ever displayed that property, however.

That quote states that there is nothing out there that we have found capable of doing such a thing as you seem to be suggesting... So...that quote sums up what all that you want said about the alcubierre drive? Fair enough to me.

I mean, I understand what you are getting at, but within the confines of the special theory of relativity it simply is not possible...

Although this article is just about special theory of relativity I will concede that just because it is such a good theory does not make it true. I mean until Einstein entered the scene A lot of newton's stuff was considered to be the correct way of thinking. But Einstein came along with this theory and proved a lot of newtons theories completely wrong. One day the same may happen to Einstein as well.



[edit on 10-8-2009 by gimme_some_truth]

Originally posted by MAC269
reply to post by gimme_some_truth

 

Now then.

Both string theory and M theory are indeed just that, THEROY. With zero proof.

In fact there are so many string theories’ that work mathematically that is why they came up with M theory.

So have a look at this idea and see what you think.

Travel into the future we know for sure is possible Atomic clocks sky lab etc, even if only for a fraction of a second.

We know the past has already happened and theory, there that work again says it is possible.

Now I am talking single time line now.

The past as happened and the future is there waiting for us.

What if all time has already happened???

We have the proof we can travel into the future therefore it exists, see what I mean??

Indeed are we just a big computer game?? It may sound silly but some boffin came up with it.

Well, how it works is that the future has not necassarily already happened. The person going at the speed of light has time strecthed out for them. Time continues to go by but because time goes by slower for them they essentially age less.

Keep in mind that the earth all this time is still going on about its business on regular time. You are not going into the future but you are. You are slowing down time for yourself. When the rest of the world's time is moving faster than yours it is only natural that this happens.

Time moves much faster for the person remaining stationary on earth than it does for the person moving about at the speed of light. For both, the "future" has not happened yet they are just experiencing time at such different rates... the speed demon experiences an earth year as one day, so to speak.

[edit on 10-8-2009 by gimme_some_truth]

reply to post by gimme_some_truth

Well, how it works is that the future has not necassarily already happened. The person going at the speed of light has time strecthed out for them. Time continues to go by but because time goes by slower for them they essentially age less.

Keep in mind that the earth all this time is still going on about its business on regular time. You are not going into the future but you are. You are slowing down time for yourself. When the rest of the world's time is moving faster than yours it is only natural that this happens.

Hmmm ... time travel is getting weirder and weirder the more we look at it ...

Time moves much faster for the person remaining stationary on earth than it does for the person moving about at the speed of light. For both, the "future" has not happened yet they are just experiencing time at such different rates... the speed demon experiences an earth year as one day, so to speak.

I'm in agreement with you that travel into the future is NOT what we'd normally consider as "true" time travel i.e. hopping into a tm, pressing a few buttons and ending up at some point in the future.
As you mentioned to the poster, forward time travel is basically a case of the travellers point of view being that HIS clock is running normally BUT the clocks on Earth running faster. Alternatively, from the point of view of someone on Earth, their clocks are running normally BUT the travellers clock has slowed down.

But as for the future not having happened yet, I'm not so sure.

Consider this scenario:

Your personal year is 2009 and you get your hands on a tm and climb in. You set your controls to take you back say, nine years to 2000 and arrive safely.
Now bear in mind that for the citizens of 2000, the future hasn't happened yet e.g. the WTC bombings that will happen a year in their future and as far as THEY are concerned, their present is all there is and they KNOW NOTHING of the future and would if asked by you, swear black and blue that the future is YET to happen. From their point of view, they are at the top end of their time line.

And yet, there is nothing stopping you from climbing back into your tm and setting the controls and arriving in 2001, or 2002 or any other year up to and including 2009 (where you originally came from).

So what are we to make of this scenario ?

The people of 2000 KNOW the future hasn't happened yet ... but here you are able to travel to one of these future years that apparently "haven't happened yet" !


Now, lets say that back in your year of 2009 you DO NOT have access to a tm ... then can't we say that YOU are in exactly the same position regarding the future as not having happened yet as were those people in 2000 ? You would be perfectly justified in thinking that YOU are at the top of the time line.
And yet, you saw that there WAS a future that to them obviously hadn't happened yet i.e. the years 2001, 2002, 2003, etc. So if there are future years that THEY can't be aware of, then why should it be any different for you in 2009 and there being future years that YOU are not aware of ... absolutely no reason at all ... because there is NO logical reason that your case should be any more special than that for the people of 2000.


Even more brain strain now

[edit on 10-8-2009 by tauristercus]

reply to post by gimme_some_truth


Nice thread, thanks.

I don't agree that going into the past from the present or the future would change the outcome of the timeline and alter the present or the future.

Simply because you would create a time paradox by doing so.

It's that old chestnut, where if you had a time machine, travelled back into the past, and accidentally killed your great, great, great (insert as many great' as you like) grandfather or grandmother, how could you have been born in order to go back and accidentally kill him or her?

This is what is commonly termed a time paradox.

However, the other side of the coin is equally true. I'll explain:

If you had a time machine, and you went back into the past from the present or from the future this means that you were always MEANT to go back into time...if you didn't go back, this would cause a time paradox in the future, because the effects of visiting the past, are part of the timeline and happened the way they happened in the past, because of your visit.

How is this possible? How can we have a time paradox caused BY going into the past, and a time paradox by NOT going into the past?

Well, the speculation is that as well as the original, unvisited and unaltered timeline, where no time machine was used, you would have created two additional timelines or alternate dimensions.

1. Is the original..no time machine
2. Is the altered present timeline where you kill your ancestor.
3. Is the altered future timeline, altered by your action of going through time to the past, and because a paradox cannot exist in the same timeline, a new, future timeline (dimension) is required where you can exist, in order to go back and kill your ancestor.

The short of it is there are infinite dimensions (potential timelines).

Another interesting tidbit regarding time travel is that if or when time travel is discovered or the technology is perfected, it means that because of the additional timelines that are created through it's use, that the resulting dimensions or timelines, would have ALWAYS had access to the technology. If the traveller went to the past, say for example the year 1000AD, then time travel would have been available in 1000AD, and alternate timelines would have been created that incorporate time travel since that time that include time travel from that year.

This would be so, even if time tech were perfected in the year 45,000 AD, once the traveller went back, the point in time reached would be the point in time where (when) time travel occurs.

I love this kind of topic, as it make your mind perform unreal gymnastics, where the landing is always somewhat wonky!

Edit to add:

While i agree moving 'backwards' through time could utilise a Wormhole (ERB), i also speculate that 'forwards' travel could also use one too.

How? I am thinking of a wormhole that is looped around on itself, rather than a linear line that goes from A to B.

Entering the wormhole would cause the traveller to dissapear from the universe, entering a null space and time area of the universe, or a mini universe distinct from ours. And travel around this 'looped universe', that resembles a curved tube or tunnel. The length and 'duration' (relative terminology) of travelling around this toroidal universe, is determined by 'when' in the future the traveller wishes to go. As the traveller is outside of our universe, it has no effect on him or her until the re-emerge into it, at the end of his or her journey through the wormhole universe.

Say the traveller wanted to go one year to the future, to an observer the machine (or ship) would dissapear from this universe, and if the observer waited at the same spot or came back in a year, they would see the traveller re-appear in the spot he or she left, as the journey is a circular one, the origin and destination are the same point in space, but not in time. (the difference in time is attributed to the arc of the toroid universe/wormhole)

See, my landing has gone all wonky!

[edit on 10/8/2009 by spikey]

[edit on 10/8/2009 by spikey]

reply to post by gimme_some_truth


Thanks for this intelligent thread, although your just posting someones work it's a breath of fresh air into this stuffy ATS environment. This is why I joined ATS... to wonder. Now I'll be trying to build on the concepts of wormholes for the next 60 years, .

reply to post by tauristercus


Does your sig line mean:

I came, i saw, i fell over?

Originally posted by spikey
reply to post by tauristercus

 

Does your sig line mean:

I came, i saw, i fell over?

Hahahaha ... almost ... but not quite !!

I'm not sure if the moderators will allow me to to say this but I'll take the chance ... the translation is ...

I came, I saw, I farted

Yes, I know it's immature but it simply appealed to me !

I personally still do not understand how if something moves faster it gains mass.

If this was so, we would be riddled with holes from the photonic particles tearing through our flesh they are so heavy from travelling at the speed of light.

the mass of light doesn't seem to change.

also, we don't know what happens to matter beyond certain speeds as we have no reliable applied physics model that can show us a massive object moving beyond say 30 or 40 thousand miles per hour like asteroids, spaceships or planetary bodies.

Originally posted by djusdjus
I personally still do not understand how if something moves faster it gains mass.

If this was so, we would be riddled with holes from the photonic particles tearing through our flesh they are so heavy from travelling at the speed of light.

the mass of light doesn't seem to change.

As an object with mass increases it's velocity, it's total energy and momentum will also increase. This can be easily seen from the well known Einstein equation that relates energy to mass i.e E = m c^2

As you can see from that equation, any increase in the total energy of the object (E) i.e. by increasing it's velocity immediately means that it's apparent mass (m) must also increase because the c value (speed of light) MUST remain a constant.

But as its velocity increases, so does it's corresponding energy and therefore mass, which then means that even more energy needs to be applied to increase it's velocity even a little bit more .. .which then increases it's mass even more ... which then requires even more energy to increase it's velocity ... which then increases its mass ... well, you get the picture by now.

So, the closer you want the objects velocity to get to that of light, you have to pump in increasingly more amounts of energy but you'll never be able to EXACTLY hit the speed of light because by then, the objects mass has become almost infinite and consequently you'd need an impossible amount of energy to get even a slight more velocity increase.

As for photons, the reason that they CAN travel at light speed is because they are essentially massless particles and the above restrictions don't apply.

Also, photons are created ALREADY travelling at the speed of light and don't need to gradually work their way up from lesser velocities.

Also, we don't know what happens to matter beyond certain speeds as we have no reliable applied physics model that can show us a massive object moving beyond say 30 or 40 thousand miles per hour like asteroids, spaceships or planetary bodies.

Not so ... we can easily model an objects properties e.g. mass increase, length contraction, time dilation, etc at any relatavistic velocity courtesy of equations supplied by Lorentz and Einstein.

[edit on 10-8-2009 by tauristercus]

I didnt realize this thread had so many pages, I have only read the first so far, so forgive me what I say has been said earlier.

This got me thinking about the details of time travel.

The Traveler, an ideal candidate would be a person of high intelligence and little regard to anything other than work/advancement of our race. They would have to be willing to lose family and friends for ever potentially, and leave the world they knew to return to one they may not.

That was thinking purely in the sense that we can move forward through time and not backwards through wormholes.

If we did learn how to manipulate and create wormholes, we could and most likely would go to our own past, since it is likely to think that we would send our scientists and not politicians to the past. We would impart our current technology to the people in the past, thus making our race become more advanced at earlier times. So if that continued we would probably become a super advanced race of people in our distant past.

If we did discover how to use wormholes like off ramps, is it possible that the mass ufo sightings are not extra terrestrials and just our own scientists from a distant time, contemplating to stop and start the technology advancement?

Next time you are looking to the sky look for the air force logo on the side of the ship.

reply to post by tauristercus


Lol...thanks for that!

reply to post by tauristercus


Is the speed of light constant though?

Read what happens to the speed of photons when directed through water.

They radically slow to the point where individual photons can be imaged and photographed.

Weird shaped blighters....although interestingly the shapes and trails they create look strikingly similar to 'Ufo' photo's i've seen from the eighties.

Perhaps there's a link between slowing photons and moving faster?
I know 'fluidic space' is from a TV programme, but perhaps the writers were onto something?

It has been proven that photons can be slowed, and slowed quite radically, so where does that leave Mr. Einstein's theory if c of E=mc^2 CAN change?

reply to post by born-indigo


Ahha!

You are getting very warm i think born-indigo...

I think you might be onto something, something that is part of 'the' cover-up regarding our past.

It also explain many of the out of place/time objects that have been found in seemingly impossible places, such as Iron tools, firmly embedded in millions of year old rock strata.

Or anamolous dig sites, where the finds indicate the people who lived there were hugely more advanced technologically, than should be the case. (the archaeologists who go on to reports these anomolies usually find their careers and funding are finished more or less overnight)



I look at it like this:

If our galaxy or even our universe is doomed (for whatever reason), the ONLY place to go is in the past.

This may 'already' have happened in the future (i know, weird) and the resultant travellers may be human decendants, who have evolved to be a distinct species after travelling millions of years into the past.

reply to post by born-indigo


That´s an excellent theory. That the UFO´s are actually our own human visitors from future times.
It would also explain some other things. Like:
1.- There aren´t time lines that correspond to different universes, there´s just this one, at least for us on Earth.
2.- Future humans have developed the technology to travel in time “at least, to the past” but they can only observe. They can´t interfere with their own “past”.
3.- They are the ones actually feeding the “ET visitors from other planets” stories as their own alibi.

Originally posted by gimme_some_truth

Our own galaxy is somewhere around 100,000 light years across.

--------------------

To quote the book How To Build Time machines by Paul Davies “ In a spaceship traveling at 99 percent the speed of light, a trip across the galaxy would take just 14,000 years. At 99.99 percent of the speed of light, the gain is even more spectacular: The trip lasts a mere 1,400 years. If you could reach 99.999999 percent of the speed of light, the trip could be completed in a human lifetime.”

99.999999 is less than 100 percent... 100 percent of light speed IS light speed. (not 100 X lightspeed)

if the milky way is 100,000 light years across, then it would take MORE than 100,000 years for a ship to traverse the milky way traveling at 99.999%, ((AS SEEN by an impartial observer from earth)) but the person on the ship would experience the time in relation to the speed they are traveling, and it would seem like alot less time has passed, (in theory anyways) thus we have "special relativity"?

[edit on 10-8-2009 by drsmooth23]

Originally posted by spikey
reply to post by tauristercus

 

Read what happens to the speed of photons when directed through water.

what happens when a wave hits a wave? an interference pattern emerges. I would imagine that as photons hits the water molecules they are reflected and refracted and sent on different trajectories, making them seemingly move slower.

[edit on 10-8-2009 by drsmooth23]

Originally posted by spikey


This may 'already' have happened in the future (i know, weird) and the resultant travellers may be human decendants, who have evolved to be a distinct species after travelling millions of years into the past.

hmmm, Are we getting into possible explanations for aliens and ufo's now? Wow, I must admit that is a turn I did not expect this thread to take but it certainly is interesting.

[edit on 10-8-2009 by gimme_some_truth]

Originally posted by drsmooth23

Originally posted by gimme_some_truth

Our own galaxy is somewhere around 100,000 light years across.

--------------------

To quote the book How To Build Time machines by Paul Davies “ In a spaceship traveling at 99 percent the speed of light, a trip across the galaxy would take just 14,000 years. At 99.99 percent of the speed of light, the gain is even more spectacular: The trip lasts a mere 1,400 years. If you could reach 99.999999 percent of the speed of light, the trip could be completed in a human lifetime.”

99.999999 is less than 100 percent... 100 percent of light speed IS light speed. (not 100 X lightspeed)

if the milky way is 100,000 light years across, then it would take MORE than 100,000 years for a ship to traverse the milky way traveling at 99.999%

That is correct, if we were to view an object from earth traveling from one side of the milky way to the other at the speed of light it would take us much more than 100,000 years. That is because time has not stretched and slowed down for us.

It is the person in the space craft ( Or what have you) traveling at the speed of light who will experience it only taking a human life time, so to speak.

Originally posted by tauristercus

I'm in agreement with you that travel into the future is NOT what we'd normally consider as "true" time travel i.e. hopping into a tm, pressing a few buttons and ending up at some point in the future.
As you mentioned to the poster, forward time travel is basically a case of the travellers point of view being that HIS clock is running normally BUT the clocks on Earth running faster. Alternatively, from the point of view of someone on Earth, their clocks are running normally BUT the travellers clock has slowed down.

Exactly, and that is one thing that I sense a few people having trouble catching onto. When one mentions a time machine people naturally picture an HG Wells time machine type of craft that some how rips you from this point of time and transports you to another.

That is not how this theory works though. What it is, is time slows down for the person at that high speed but it remains the same for the people on earth. Because of this, time is moving faster on earth and this creates the effect of going into the future, but what you are ultimately doing is, slowing down time for yourself and no one else.

Yea but if your passing through a portal like that guy had under his sink then your not really slowing time down your just jumping ahead right? How would a time portal really work if your going from point a---->point b whats in the middle an alternate universe? Is time folding on itself or something?


Furthermore is there any proof that time really exist or is it just something we perceive to exist so we can cope with reality.